Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Originally posted by times up?
reply to post by justamomma

 

What is your take on the rest of the New Testament? The Gospels, the Epistles of James, Peter, Jude, etc. ?

Isaiah 8: 20 To the law (the Torah) and to the testimony (the prophets): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Because every path kept leading me back to the wisdom of G.d, I personally use this rule of thumb in weighing out everything I see and everything I hear. There are times though, I will hear or see something that will speak to my heart though I don't know how it fits into the Torah or the words of the prophets and in that case, I file it away in my head. Thus far, those things will come rushing back when I am reading something after having gained new experiences and it falls in place allowing new understanding to come.

But seeing that the worship of the image of a man as G.d or even one man as the Saviour of the world is contradictory to the law and the testimony, I discard it personally. I don't ask that anyone esle do so, but rather I hope that I am at least giving some people reason enough to want to go and find out why they believe what they claim to believe.

G.d never expected us to be idiots and to blindly trust whatever doctrines we hear.

Consider this:

Faith is used 2 times from Gen - Malachi
Believe - 17

Knowledge - 120 times
Understanding - 136 times
Wisdom - 181
search - 128



Faith is used 245 times from Mat - Rev
believe - 124

knowledge - 42
understanding - 24
wisdom - 53
search - 3

See a trend here?

reply to post by justamomma


If you will please bear with me, I may be able to shed some insight into the man known as Jesus. The problem is people did not understand Jesus the way they should have. When Jesus said the way to the kingdom of God was within him, and that we must experience him, he did not mean we had to accept him as lord and savior. Now I may be wrong, but I feel I am completely right when I say the following. Jesus as a higher consciousness being understood that concept of we are all one within creation. He said we must experience him, in the same way when one expands ones consciousness and sees that he is his brother and his brother is him. Jesus was telling us that when we see us as Jesus and experience Jesus, literally experience Jesus, we will be infinitely closer to God. Of course, we could just have to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, except the fatal flaw in that is that God is Love. God is not going to allow a whole group of people to only experience his Joy, and everyone else can go jump in a lake. Accepting a man, no matter how divine he is, as the only way to salvation does alot to limit ones spirituality. It's like accepting at face value what mass media puts out. It closes you to Truth, because you believe this single entity can't possibly be wrong. And they'll warn you if your in danger. Right?

I'm not that experienced at forum posting so I apologize if my words sorta blur into each other but I dunno where to start the paragraphs. Many will refute what I say, but that is their ego attempting to protect them, blocking the possibility that what I say is true. One only has to read what Jesus said. He spoke of the way to higher enlightenment. I know. I have experienced Jesus.

reply to post by M157yD4wn



Yes, it seems to me as though this was the message that he was trying to instill into the hearts of the Jewish people. If one understands the spirit of G.d's Law, then one understands the purpose for the letter.

If the Law of G.d could be understood by the people, then it would essentially have been heaven on earth. Now, the Romans and others who were power hungry can't have that, can they? Therefore the message was converted most likely as a way to assure control was kept over the masses.

Can't have brother helping brother. Can't have neighbor helping neighbor. Keep the poor needy and let the rich man continue to fill his greedy tendencies. Sharing responsibility?

Confuse the issue and in fact, make several different gods while we're at it. As long as the people are fighting, the ones with the $$ and the true knowledge can continue to assert control and take advantage.

One G.d and one people who express their love for G.d by recognizing themselves in each other is far too dangerous of a concept for the little people of the world to get a hold of.

reply to post by justamomma


That is hitting the nail on the head. I think that God is sick of this hiding of the Truth, so it has been decided that now is the time for humankind as a whole to be given this knowledge. For too long have the men in power used this to stay in power. For too long have they hidden it and used it to lord over us. God always wins in the end. The end of this is now. and on to a new beginning. Personally, I cannot wait. I am doing all I can do now. I do not like that I sound arrogant when I speak to other people concerning this, but I feel that I cannot simply sit by and watch people spin in the created hamster wheels. Running forever, but not going anywhere. Even in this posting I have used the words I way too much. If only... telepathy maybe. Imparting upon everyone everything I know and feel.. then I'd never have to say I.

reply to post by M157yD4wn


Hello,

I think that this verse sums up what is being accomplished:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Philippians 2:5

which then explains:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

Later on in the chapter of Philippians it is said that every knee shall bow, yes we bow to our own humility in being the same as he was and the knowing that we are all one. That is the only way we bow our knee as we give thanks to the One God.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Paul is blatantly trying to discredit those who follow the law, yet G-d gave His laws SO THAT righteousness COULD be established.

he´s not necessarily talking about honest hearted ones you follow the law, he discrediting those who enforce the law, who teach the law. the pharisees were more preoccupied with power and esteem, making great flaunts of their righteousness while condemning the people. they preoccupied with details of the law, they forgot the very purpose of the law which was to lead them to the messiah.

And then, of course, as I have mentioned:
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And that is the doctrinal lie: Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Yet the Law has already been declared as perfect, FOREVER (no mentioning that there will be an end) and it can convert the soul (no mention of Jesus or a man converting the soul).

i think that fundamentally you are misunderstanding what is being said in romans 10:4. its not that christ ends the law (end being a verb), its that he is THE end (noun). imperfect humans cannot perfectly follow the law (even though we try and try and try), thats why we had sacrifices. to remind us that we are not perfect and that we need a messiah for salvation. jesus (the messiah (ill get into that later), was god´s son (not god) and was formed to be a perfect human. jesus was able to provide an example for us. in this respect, he was the ¨end¨. like the ending to a story, or a punch-line to a joke. in this respect too it could be said that jesus ¨fulfilled the law¨

Psa 119:152,160 Concerning thy testimonies(statutes), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever(are eternal).

the other scripture you quoted was fine, but this one you put ¨law¨ after ¨righteous judgements¨ which kind of changes the context slightly. judgments doesnt always include the law. the destruction of sodom and gomorrah, the forgiveness of david and some examples of judgments outside of ¨the law¨. the psalmist wasnt just talking about the law, but rather the decisions god makes.

So, to continue on,
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

He only PARTIALLY quotes Moses.

inconsequential. paul is not lying here, neither is moses. the law is perfect and if a person can obey it perfectly then that person deserves to live. the questions raised by paul in the subsequent verses basically asks who has done this? now think about this for a moment, can you (personally) think of anyone who is able NOT to sin? can you think of someone who has NEVER sinned?

paul is not inventing a saviour, he just saying that there is someone fit that description

And here we see he is trying to invent a new righteousness, aka Jesus. But, yet again, he only partially quotes Deuteronomy. In the full context, we can see that it is NOT speaking of Jesus or ANY man, but is rather speaking of the commands given by G-d.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? ( IT… not HIM)

as i was saying before, ¨it¨, is an example. jesus fulfilled the law in that he was the perfect example.

Replacing the law with faith in Jesus is his agenda and Paul has no trouble misapplying and taking out of context any OT verse that suits his needs. The fuller context of Deut 30 shows us why Paul couldn't quote the verses honestly.
Deut 30: 9-11 declares: And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off(not too difficult to obey).

of course he is replacing the law with faith in jesus. if jesus was the messiah, then what need is there for animal sacrifices? arent they symbolic of the sacrifice that the messiah do on behalf of mankind? its only logical that when the messiah arrives, certain aspects of the law would be stopped or replaced.

circumcision for example. it was placed to signify a covenant between god and abraham to ¨time indefinate¨. what was the promise of this covenant? well, 2 things, one, that abraham´s seed would become a nation, and two, that the promised seed (messiah) would come from abraham´s line. if and when the messiah came, what would be the purpose of continuing this symbolism if the terms of the promise (or contract) have been fulfilled? it would be like holding on to your movie ticket long after you´ve seen the movie. it may be sedimental but its not valid for another movie.

like i said in also in my first post, its only certain parts of the law that are done away with. moral tenets dont change. it will never be ok to commit murder or adultery or to steal from your brother.

Originally posted by justamomma
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is this dangerous confession that Jesus is the Lord that Paul wants us to believe Deut 30: 14 is speaking about.

Isaiah 45: 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul attempts to undermine G-d’s words. Wow, that takes a lot of guts to give G-d’s glory away to another man… or maybe not so much guts as foolishness.

several things.

- jesus is not god. none of the apostles claim jesus was god. i could explain it here, but it would talk many posts, and ive actually debated this subject quite thoroughly below is a thread with tons of information ive already posted

www.belowtopsecret.com...

- the second point. LORD and Lord are separate things. LORD is a replacement for god´s name, there is alot of superstition that we shouldnt use it. however ¨Lord¨ is a title, so is ¨God¨

that being said, rom 10:9 is not saying anything blasphemous. the later part acknowledges that GOD raised jesus, not jesus, and it acknowledges jesus´ appointed role as king.

Daniel 7:[13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Paul, of course, thinks G-d is wrong and that JESUS, a man, is our savior and it is by him that we are saved.

not at all. jesus is the sacrifice. so yes, he is our saviour, but who sent him? isnt it god who sends the messiah? (duet 18:15-19)

Rom 10:10-11 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Another misquote, this time from Isaiah 28: 16 which states, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Now, where in this passage is Jesus mentioned? It is speaking of trusting G-d’s word and Him… not a man/god.

Isaiah was referring to a ¨sacred secret¨. the establishment of a heavenly jerusalem. a kingdom that would eventually restore mankind to a sinless state. this kingdom is referred to more extensively in daniel. the reason paul was mentioning this passage is because jesus referred to himself as ¨the cornerstone the builders threw away¨

jesus, if he was the messiah, was the cornerstone of this heavenly kingdom. the ¨firstfruit¨. later, the foundation would be built from the apostles. and the rest of the city would be build with faithful people who had a ¨heavenly calling¨. deep concept, im keeping it simple because it could easily take up the thread by itself.

Philippians 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

G-d’s people are supposed to worship HIM (NOT a man)!!

i dont want to sound confrontational so please dont take it that way, but you are misquoting paul.

¨Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:¨ nowhere in that sentence is paul saying that jesus is above or equal to god. if anything, that statement places jesus in the number 2 position, which would make sense if he was god´s anointed king. ¨every knee should bow¨ is not worship, but respect.

¨And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.¨ that everyone should acknowledge jesus is king, that god is awesome for providing us with salvation through the sacrifice of his son. (¨to the glory of god¨ is acknowledging superior position)

paul is not saying that we should worship jesus and he is acknowledging god´s superior ¨rank¨

Isa 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Don’t see a man/god (Jesus) being mentioned in the following either. Isa 45:21...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. OR here: Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

your right, jesus is not mentioned, the passage of isaiah is calling people to have faith in god´s provision of salvation. other scriptures in the OT (including isaiah) point to that provision being the messiah.

thing is, paul is writing to christians that already think that jesus was the messiah, but they were having problems understanding the in´s and out´s of it. so paul wasnt inventing anything. the real issue seems to me that you dont believe that jesus was the messiah.

there are tons of prophecies that point to him being the messiah, just google messianic prophecies and im sure tons of sites will come up with tables of scriptures ( www.christiananswers.net... ). but there is one passage that did it for me.

daniel 9

daniel deduced that jeremiah foretold that their exile in babylon would be 70 years. daniel began to pray to god that he forgive isreal for having transgressed the law. in the middle of his prayer, gabriel appeared to reveal some major news.

[20] And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
[23] At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

so here´s the vision.

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

¨end of sins¨, ¨reconciliation for iniquity¨. Gabriel is not referring to the end of their current exile. he´s talking about the ultimate exile, that of sin. god´s promised seed would come in 70 weeks. (gen 3:15). this would bring ¨everlasting righteousness¨. and its not talking about the law, because its talking about anointing the ¨most holy¨ or ¨most holy place¨ (or spiritual jerusalem of which jesus is the cornerstone)

[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (see nehemiah 2:1) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Artaxerxes Longimanus of persia was the king to issue that decree in 455BC.

the period of 70 weeks couldnt be a literal 70 weeks, because the ¨streets¨ and ¨walls¨ of jerusalem would be rebuilt in time for the arrival of the messiah. if you apply ¨day for a year¨(numbers 14:34, ezekial 4:6), then you get 490 years. but the full 70 weeks is divided.

[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

so starting from verse 25, you have 7 weeks until jerusalem is rebuilt. 7 weeks = 49 years. puts us at 406BC. verse twenty six talks about 3 score and 2 week or 62 weeks which = 434 years until the appearance of the messiah. which brings us to 29ad (remember that there is no year 0) jesus was baptized and began his ministry in that year

verse 27 talks about the final week. in the midst, or halfway through, he shall cause sacrifice to cease. jesus died 3 and a half years after beginning his ministry. the death of the messiah ceased the need for sacrifices to be made at the temple.

but, he shall confirm (or keep) the covenant (abrahamic covenant) for one full week. meaning that for 3 1/2 years after jesus´ death, salvation at that time was only offered to the isrealites. gentiles were not included. in 36AD, after the ¨week¨ was completed, preaching of salvation was then opened to the gentiles with the baptism of cornelius.

daniel 9 convinces me of jesus´messiahship

anyway thats my thoughts on that. im sorry i took so long to post.

reply to post by miriam0566

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. You have given me much to respond to (am backed up on many right now lol) and I promise I will get to it just as soon as I have the time and attention that it deserves to be given. Again, thank you for putting so much effort into your reply.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by miriam0566


I was under the impression that Paul brought the "word" to the gentiles, not to those who already believed. And thus had to "compromise" to somewhat fit in with the beliefs they already had. If they already believed and knew, then they wouldn't need Paul. Just as I do not need Paul, nor the bible because you can only really learn anything from the holy spirit. And what I learned from the holy spirit is that Paul is not Jesus, nor is Paul to be followed, nor is what he teaches the truth.

In fact, what I learned from the holy spirit is that Jesus is the truth, not to be taken as a man, not to be taken as a symbol, and not to be taken as an idol. And that when the veil is finally lifted, the truth will be known to all, and that is the return of Jesus(truth) in the end times. And once that truth is known by all, evil will rot as it is built off lies and deceives those who do not know the truth. Thus as each person receives "Jesus", they are actually receiving and accepting the truth, not the physical idol the church puts it's focus into.

Seems to me there is a reason man is not to make an idol of God. Some try to push that off as meaning to keep people ignorant, but that isn't true. It's because they will take the idol as God and worship that idol instead of what is truly God, and when the idol comes into play, it will blind people and keep them ignorant of anything beyond the idol. And it seems to me, that the biggest thing Paul does is play praise to the idol, get people to focus on the idol and then say - thou must do this and follow this because of it. Which then gets manipulated even further.

It is possible that these were not Pauls intentions, and so I can't Judge Paul based on whats been done after, or because of which writings were decided on being carried on - because that wouldn't be right of me. But there is little denying at this point that the words and structures created by Paul are at this point generally used by those who manipulate, and those words are put with more importance than even the words of Jesus. It's to say - you can't understand Jesus for yourself. You can't take just the words of Jesus, you can only take and understand the version that has been forced on to people. The version that was spread through actions contrary to the words of Jesus. You can't actually have a personal relationship with god - unless of course that relationship means you have great knowledge of the word, and nothing beyond it. etc.

For all I know, this could have been something Paul had to do just to keep the words and lessons of Jesus in tact for this long, as a way of keeping it for those who actually want to see. Where as Paul is a protective "cover" to the truth and gets those who are evil(ignorant) to pass it on unknowingly. Kind of like a seal on the truth. Kind of worked that way for me. So this is not judgment from me for Paul. But since I can now see, then I can also see the compromises and half truths that are focused on. I can remove the cover and see the truth.

I do not think it is just a coincidence that when I speak up about Jesus, it is the words of Paul that people use to tell me I'm wrong, and never the words of Jesus. Jesus spoke in parables to give meaning and understanding, they stand on their own for those willing to see it.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by badmedia]

lol, its a weird compromise. there is alot of information. i cant imagine having this discussion with you in person without being able to ¨break down¨ what your saying into easier to understand chunks

Originally posted by badmedia
I was under the impression that Paul brought the "word" to the gentiles, not to those who already believed.

jesus gave the ¨keys¨ of heaven to peter. first key was used in pentecost 33 AD and peter initiated the preaching to the jews. then the second key in 36 with the baptism of cornelius.

yes paul was the ¨apostle¨ (or assigned) of the nations. but that doesnt mean he was the first.

I do not need Paul, nor the bible because you can only really learn anything from the holy spirit. And what I learned from the holy spirit is that Paul is not Jesus, nor is Paul to be followed, nor is what he teaches the truth.

even jesus quoted the word of god on numerous occasions ( www.citw.org.uk... )

matt 4:[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

jesus used the scriptures to teach. the word of god wasnt limited to jesus or the holy spirit. the scriptures themselves were inspired by god. and jesus´use of them proves that.

if you can say that you dont ¨need¨ the bible, then im sure whatever spirit that teaches you cant be the holy spirit. because the holy spirit would not direct you away from god´s word. sorry.

Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus gave the ¨keys¨ of heaven to peter. first key was used in pentecost 33 AD and peter initiated the preaching to the jews. then the second key in 36 with the baptism of cornelius.

And the truth is the key to heaven. And as I said before, when you recieve the truth(Jesus), then that is what you get. It is the holy spirit who brings remembrance of the truth to someone.

yes paul was the ¨apostle¨ (or assigned) of the nations. but that doesnt mean he was the first.

And yet, this is not the kingdom of Jesus per his own words. Who was able to offer the world to Jesus? Satan. Jesus tells his disciples NOT to do these things, but apparently, Paul is special and doesn't have to actually follow the path.

even jesus quoted the word of god on numerous occasions ( www.citw.org.uk... )

matt 4:[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

jesus used the scriptures to teach. the word of god wasnt limited to jesus or the holy spirit. the scriptures themselves were inspired by god. and jesus´use of them proves that.

As can I. Doesn't mean he needed them, he only uses them so that the people he is talking to can understand.

if you can say that you dont ¨need¨ the bible, then im sure whatever spirit that teaches you cant be the holy spirit. because the holy spirit would not direct you away from god´s word. sorry.

Oh, so you are saying I asked for a fish and received a serpent instead? I think not. And as I am to look at the fruits, then I have to look at all the fruits of the church. But those who defend the church will always ask me to look in the left hand, and will ask me not to look in the right hand. And this I simply can not do.

The spirit certainly did not lead me away from god's words, it is the father that I heard from the start, not Jesus. It lead me away from man's word, which is that which is written by man. Sorry to break it to you, but divinely inspired is not the same as hearing god's word. In fact, you've been given a cheap physical replacement, just as an idol is a cheap physical replacement.

As I said before, you and people like you speak of a personal relationship with god, but they don't allow it. Apparently, a personal relationship with god means owning a bible, and supporting the powers of the church. Sorry, but that is a joke, and for those who have seen and experienced the real thing, they will recognize it as such.

Did you seek? Or did you accept what was feed to you? Did you ask for a fish? Or did you just eat the serpent that presented itself as a fish? I certainly never had to seek a bible, the idol of Jesus or the church. It is feed to anyone who will eat it. They come looking for me, they even come to my front door.

Did Jesus tell the rich man to just accept him as his savior? Nope. He told the rich man to walk the path, that it was easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven. And yet, according to the church, all this rich man needs to do is repent, and accept Jesus as his savior. It is very clear who has manipulated the words of Jesus and turned it into a false religion where the path is broad and destructive. It is very clear who will be those who say Lord Lord, look at our left hand and all the wonderful works and demons we killed in your name, and who Jesus will then point to their right hand and say - I never knew you, as you did these things in sin.

A false religion based on Jesus as a sacrifice(thus why the cross, the tool used to murder him is the symbol of the religion) so that they can live. A sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie of this world can live, and for thousands of years it has. But 1 day it will come to an end and the truth will be known to all.


[edit on 6-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
Oh, so you are saying I asked for a fish and received a serpent instead? I think not. And as I am to look at the fruits, then I have to look at all the fruits of the church. But those who defend the church will always ask me to look in the left hand, and will ask me not to look in the right hand. And this I simply can not do.

didnt say anything about a church. im referring to the fact that you dont ¨need¨the bible.

Originally posted by miriam0566
didnt say anything about a church. im referring to the fact that you dont ¨need¨the bible.

Show me a single place where Jesus says I need the bible. I did not learn anything from the bible. NOTHING. I learned it directly from source. It was not until after this happened that I seen the truth I learned repeated in the bible, and that truth was in the words of Jesus. As I got my understandings as such, I also recognize and understand for myself where things are not right.

Jesus says he will appear to people either in a dream, or in a vision. Not a book. The holy spirit will bring all things to your remembrance, it doesn't deliver a book. You put more into what the scribes say than what is and has always been inside you.

Why you put such limits on God is beyond me. As if the only way the kingdom of god which is within a person is able to speak and give knowledge is through some man written book, translated and written by men, understood by men and so on. Especially when the same people who did this during the time of Jesus were the ones Jesus called children of Satan.

That I need some silly book when a personal relationship with god is available is rather silly IMO.

The bible contains many truths and lessons. No doubt about that. I was quite honestly shocked when I read the words of Jesus after learning the truth. I couldn't believe how much truth he spoke, and how it was never presented to me in such a way. I knew and know that he is truth and what he says is the truth, but I didn't learn it from the book, I only seen what I learned repeated.

The book doesn't teach anything, only when you have the holy spirit can you understand it, and you don't need the book when you have the holy spirit to teach you things, god is not as limited as Christians and other faiths make him out to be. These limitations are claimed so that someone can jump in and be the middle man, or make the claim of being such and lead people astray.

Only a search within can lead you to god. Those who search externally will never find it, they will simply accept another physical being(the anti-christ) as being that because they are blind and deceived. And that is what Paul and the church builds up when they build up the idol, and when they build up there powers as god on earth. An external and physical replacement.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by badmedia]

As the kingdom of god is within, the physical church is a lie and a replacement. Churches were referred to by Jesus as a synagogue.

The true church that Jesus spoke of, is one that is built on wisdom. Which is present both here on earth and in the kingdom of god. When Jesus gives Peter the key, he is giving Peter truth and understanding, and based on this truth and understanding Peter builds his church within.

The rich man in the eyes of god is the man with wisdom. So this is what the true church is built of. You can't take the physical with you, and the physical church is not in the kingdom of god, because it is not inside of you, it is outside of you.

Thus why when 2 people discuss Jesus(truth), he is among them. Because when we discuss things, like we do here on these forums, we add to our understanding and wisdom. Preaching isn't a discussion, it's a feeding. Those who preach the "word" feed the memory, rather than bringing understanding.


[edit on 6-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


There are verses that support what you are saying. Jesus is speaking in these:

You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5:39-40 Further into that chapter he refers to Moses speaking about him.

And then there are verses that indicate their usefulness for us:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Of course, I believe that when Timothy is referring to scripture he is referring to the Old Testament scriptures, since the New Testament hadn't yet been compiled.

Then, there's this verse too:

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

Originally posted by badmedia
Show me a single place where Jesus says I need the bible. I did not learn anything from the bible. NOTHING.

LOL, i did. matt 4:4. i think luke 4:4 says the same thing.

jesus likens god´s word to food (a necessity), all of it. divine expressions, visions, inspirations, even the written word of god. heck, he´s even quoting that expression.

look im not going to argue with you on this. believe what you want to believe.

but im not going to believe for a second that holy spirit told you that the bible is not needed. its may be A spirit thats telling you this, but the holy spirit wouldnt direct you away from god´s word. any part of it.

reply to post by L.I.B.


Thanks. I don't think the bible is useless. And if anyone tried to take it away from people, I would never go along with it, and I would speak up for peoples right to the book etc.

And it does contain many good teachings, but the understanding has to be there.

It's a difference of knowing 1+1=2, and understanding 1+1=2. You can memorize 1+1=2 and be "right" all day long, but you still do not actually understand why, how or so on. And because of this, you are just as easy to accept 1+2=5 as the same kind of truth, thinking well they said 1+1=2, so they must be right here as well. Where as the person who understands why and how 1+1=2 will quickly be able to say - hey, thats not right. These days, memory is all that's feed in schools, not understanding.

Also, I'm sure he would also be talking about the new testament, as it is the literal meaning without understanding that he is really talking about, which can be done with any words/books, even our own posts. I would have to say when Jesus says that, he is talking from the point of view of god, not from the point of view as man(Jesus).

I don't think it's coincidence that I found and seen the truth in the bible shortly after being educated. So it didn't turn me away from it, but I certainly knew/know where I got my real education.

Originally posted by miriam0566
didnt say anything about a church. im referring to the fact that you dont ¨need¨the bible.

I am going to continue to let Badmedia and L.I.B. do all my work for me lol They are doing such a fine job (better than I could in fact) and thus far, I concur with the essence of what they are saying.

By the way L.I.B., I haven't forgotten about what I said I would do. Just having a hard time finding a time to sit down and focus. *shrugs* But I do remember and will get on top of it as soon as things settle down around here.

And wanted to add in my .02 about needing a Bible. People worship the bible too, ya know. It wasn't until I let mine go that I was brought back to the words in it. When I was, the understanding of what was written had a whole new meaning.

People misunderstand what I say about finding salvation within the Law of G.d. As another poster had said, they think that I am doing this through works. Rather, the Law of G.d serves as a mirror... the letter of it is ONLY hard to look at when we are not fulfilling the spirit of the Law. When we follow the spirit of the Law, we are able to look at the letter of the Law without feeling condemned.

Let me see if I can explain this... I have avoided doing so as I don't want the words to be misconstrued into a new age type of meaning.

The spirit of the Law has two parts. The first one is the most important because without the understanding and fulfilling of it, we can not fulfill the 2nd part perfectly.

1. Love the Lord your G.d with ALL of your heart, soul, and mind.
When you understand the flow of G.d (best way I can describe it) and you embrace that flow in its wholeness, you love yourself because you realize that you are a vessel of that flow that is G.d. (again... flow is simply putting a label on it... it was the best I could think of to explain it, but again, it is merely putting a label to the essence of G.d; which ultimately is hard to do). When you realize that you are a vessel for the flow of G.d, you can learn to love yourself without letting pride come into play.

2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Once you understand and embrace the first, this 2nd one is easy to come by as you know that others are vessels as well and thus, you will love them as such.

In that, you are fulfilling the Law of G.d.

The "rituals" of Judaism are not a requirement unless you are wanting to be a part of the specific covenent with G.d. They are merely for incorporating the divine into every aspect of one's life. This is not a requirement for those who are not wanting to do so. It is not necessary to have G.d on the mind every second of every day.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]