Pentagon DNA Evidence....Is it Possible?

Originally posted by Disclosed"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. - Abraham Lincoln"

The only fools i see are the people that still believe the official story with no actual evidence to support it.

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I won't even bother with a mod link to civility threads. You've been here long enough to know them by heart.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by NGC2736]

With regard to all the members who have posted on this thread I think we can look at this issue as this that there are knowns and unkowns.

We know that on 9/11 an event took place at the Pentagon, the media reports destruction and fire at the Pentagon. Emerging from the media is a story that a plane hit the Pentagon. From media media sources there is no evidence showing the plane hitting the building as with the twin towers. We know that people died at the Pentagon.

After this we are in the land of the unknown, did a plane hit the building, was it a missile, was it neither was there just bombs planted. No security camera footage has been shown proving one hundred percent that a plane did hit the building. Were people on the alleged plane, were they alive or dead, as the plane hit part of the Pentagon that was underrgoing refurbishment just how many people were in that part of the building.

All info released by the media is just hearsay, witnesses real or not at the seen tell of what they saw but again its just hearsay, we were not there we did not film the event. Due to the total lack of an independant investigation by a team of experts all info provided must be treated with suspicion as with 7/7 a tiny amount of evidence is provided to give the public belief that the event happened as reported by the media.

9/11 and events like this will never go away and will be discussed for decades. It is almost certain that the was complicity on behalf of the Goverment in these events, the simple lack of any continuing terrorist action on US soil is indicative of this. As an example the UK suffered 30 years of continuous terrorist activity yet since 9/11 there hav been no events in the US. This goes against the view that the US is hated by all and there are people quing up to attack America.

Attacking US interests abroad is not the same as attacking the US mainland. And I do not believe for one minute that security is so good that they have thwarted any attempts given that US borders and coasts are like a Swiss cheese. The perps of 9/11 have sufficiently muddied the waters to direct attention away from any real attempt to find them and hold them resposible for there actions. Even if you do believe the official story the President and others should be held accountable for the deaths of thousands of its citizens yet nothing has happened. Not one person has had to face trial or any kind of action except of course the scape goats that have been found to be held up as the sacrificial lambs.

Ahem

Kindly stay ON topic and Cease the personal attacks. If you have to do that to support your point of view, then perhaps its time to take a break, and rethink how you want to defend your position.

Thanks
FredT, Moderator

Originally posted by magicmushroom
All info released by the media is just hearsay, witnesses real or not at the seen tell of what they saw but again its just hearsay, we were not there we did not film the event. Due to the total lack of an independant investigation by a team of experts all info provided must be treated with suspicion as with 7/7 a tiny amount of evidence is provided to give the public belief that the event happened as reported by the media.

Quoted for truth. If the people that beleive the official story could accept this we would be heading in the right direction.

wow...just wow.

ok, a few things about DNA. but before that be forewarned that im not going to post "links" to anything. ill type what i type and you can verify it or not as suits you...its pretty common sense. suffice to say that being in the millitary wasnt my only job in my adult life.

first of all, for normal circumstances...there was NOTHING wrong with the DNA testing techniques in 2001. now, sad as it is...for the most part, the pentagon scene fell under "normal" from a clinical standpoint. bodies in a fire, some crushing damage.

it only takes a few cells to render viable DNA, but as has been pointed out, exposure to direct heat will degrade the samples. which means that the charred skin on the outside of a body is worthless for DNA sampling. however...any internal organs that werent exposed to fire, bone marrow from inside a bone is good, tooth dentin is always a good choice.

the human body is mostly water. so, even while exposed to high heat, that water acts as a sort of insulator for whats inside the body for a time. (take a 30lb turkey and put it in the oven at 500 degrees for 90 mins, cut into it and where its pink, i bet you can get DNA from it. better yet, same turkey freshly killed with its internal organs intact)

so, plane crashes, fire burns, then stuff falls on top of the body crushing it...still a lot of viable tissue left.

why then new tests for the WTC? well, some of those bodies were 800ft in the air and when the building collapsed id imagine the trip down was like being put into a blender on liquify. a lot of the structures that would normally house sampleable tissues were destroyed so they had to find a way to do testing on less tissue, or more degraded tissue anyway.

am i really the only one that sees this?

even ultimas first source he cited stated that they couldnt ID ALL of the bodies at the WTC...meaning that they'd ID'd SOME of the bodies.

but the mechanism of trauma was greatly different between the two sites. anyone who cant see that isnt trying very hard.


as to the comments about the crime scene. sorry SAR trumps CSI any day. (ultima, having LE experience you KNOW that to be true) griff posted a quote about the scene going from SAR to CSI, how was it? fairly quickly? ok....seems a bit relative to me. 5 mins? 5 hrs? 5 days? crime scene was contaminated within the first hour so....

belted bodies. ok...so they got herded back to the back of the plane...how many people sit in an airplane seat and just automatically buckle up without thinking about it? so is this really a stretch? is it really an issue?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Yes i have come to a conclusion, the biggest evidence against the official story is the lack of evidence that supports it.

so, i guess it would seem that the absence of evidence IS in fact the evidence of absence.

guess i need to rethink my belief in god.....


and let me just close with this:

originally posted by: magicmushroom
Hearsay evidence of people alleged to have been at the site is not proof or facts.

and yet janitor "hears a bomb in the basement" and it might as well have been carved in stone and presented to moses.

someone needs to make me a cheatsheet as to who/what testimony is valid and which isnt. or at the very least people need to make up their minds.

Originally posted by Damocles
as to the comments about the crime scene. sorry SAR trumps CSI any day. (ultima, having LE experience you KNOW that to be true) griff posted a quote about the scene going from SAR to CSI, how was it? fairly quickly? ok....seems a bit relative to me. 5 mins? 5 hrs? 5 days? crime scene was contaminated within the first hour so....

Yes, there was 10 days of contaminating a crime scene. But the FBI only worked the crime scene for 5 days after stating it would take 30.

Now please explain to me how 5 days is enough to work a major terrorist crime scene. I mean as an example, how long did they work the first WTC bombing and the OKC bombing?

I mean come on NASA looked into the Columbia accident longer then the FBI looked at major terrorist crime scene.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Now please explain to me how 5 days is enough to work a major terrorist crime scene. I mean as an example, how long did they work the first WTC bombing and the OKC bombing?

LOL well thats a simple one.

its not. not even close. i wont even try to make up a reason for how that could be valid....and...theres no real excuse for it that i could see.

wow, whats this like the 3rd time we've ever agreed on anything? (arbitrary number it could be the first for all i know, its not important)

reply to post by Damocles


As always Damocles, you make valid points.

As far as your blender scenario though, what caused that? But, that is another thread and another time.

Originally posted by Griff
As always Damocles, you make valid points.

As far as your blender scenario though, what caused that? But, that is another thread and another time.

well the short version so we dont go too far off topic or need a whole thread would be all of the steel/concrete that was going downward. undoubtedly when it would hit something in its path, regardless of if it caused what it hit to then give way or not, its path would change even slightly no? could you imagine a human body surviving that in tact?

box column section A hits slab of concrete B and theres a body in between them. liquified.

of course to imagine that scenario you have to just accept that the tower was falling regardless of the mechanism.

Originally posted by Damocles
LOL well thats a simple one.
its not. not even close. i wont even try to make up a reason for how that could be valid....and...theres no real excuse for it that i could see.

wow, whats this like the 3rd time we've ever agreed on anything? (arbitrary number it could be the first for all i know, its not important)

Yes that got me whan i saw that report, 5 days is not near enough to do a proper crime scene. But maybe due to all the contamination (and the fact the FBI agents were taking things from the crime scenes) caused them to pull out ?

Oh i think we have agreed on a few things. Things that matter anyway.

reply to post by Damocles


I agree about the liquify. I was just joking around with you about the actual mechanism.

BTW, I'd like to interject something here. I and we are not trying to disrespect the victims of this tragic day by explicitely saying these things.

see in all honesty id never heard of them taking things from the crime scene....the only LEGITIMATE thing i could think of is securing sensitive items for the DOD...hard drives, removable media, etc so thats a new one on me honestly.

but i cant for the life of me imagine why they'd only run the crime scene for 5 days unless they were releived by a dod assett maybe?

CID? NCIS? (whatever the AF has for criminal investigations?)

i dunno...it is something that strikes even me as odd though (and no its not the only thing)

Originally posted by Griff
BTW, I'd like to interject something here. I and we are not trying to disrespect the victims of this tragic day by explicitely saying these things.

id like to second that. its just honestly hard to discuss certain aspects without being clinical about it sometimes. and theres just no easy way to discuss what happened to the bodies of some of the victims.

[edit on 28-3-2008 by Damocles]

Originally posted by Damocles
see in all honesty id never heard of them taking things from the crime scene....

CID? NCIS? (whatever the AF has for criminal investigations?)

Yes, i even have a thread about the FBI employees removing things.

The Air Force office is OSI, (Office of Special Investigations)

www.defenselink.mil...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26, 2001 -- The FBI handed over Pentagon crash site management to the Army Military District of Washington at 7 a.m. today.

The transfer of responsibility marks the end of the FBI's crime scene investigation following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack against the Pentagon. MDW will oversee ongoing security operations around the damaged area of the building. FBI investigators will move their operations to the Pentagon's north parking lot and continue to sift through debris for more evidence.

so FBI was on scene 5 days but turned it over after 15? i suppose there was some "catch up time" in there where the SAIC brought the army up to speed but....5 days?

Originally posted by Damocles
so FBI was on scene 5 days but turned it over after 15? i suppose there was some "catch up time" in there where the SAIC brought the army up to speed but....5 days?

No the FBI was only on scene 5 days. They assumed jurisdiction on Sept. 21 and turned over the scene on Spt. 26

www.defenselink.mil...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 24, 2001 -- The FBI assumed crime-scene jurisdiction at the Pentagon terrorist attack site Sept. 21 from the Arlington County (Va.) Fire Department, officials said.

FBI officials estimate the crime scene investigation would last about a month, Arlington Fire Chief Edward P. Plaugher said. He said he expects "additional remains will be discovered during the course of the FBI investigation" and mortuary specialists will remain on site to process them.



WASHINGTON, Sept. 26, 2001 -- The FBI handed over Pentagon crash site management to the Army Military District of Washington at 7 a.m. today.

The transfer of responsibility marks the end of the FBI's crime scene investigation following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack against the Pentagon. MDW will oversee ongoing security operations around the damaged area of the building. FBI investigators will move their operations to the Pentagon's north parking lot and continue to sift through debris for more evidence.

ok i see now.

but they DID turn over control of a military site to a military authority.

that actually doesnt suprise me. any crime committed on an army installation is handled by CID regardless.

but what this means by reading that....the local PD was responsible for collecting crime scene evidence for the first 10 days (along with the fires etc) so they'd have been the first ones collecting DNA samples.

of course in all of this the question is begged...how long did it take someone to determine that the scene was safe for any investigators to come collect evidence? part of a building had fallen afterall and responder safety is always priority one right?

Dam, for hearsay to become fact or evidence it has to be corrobrated, have a thorough and in this case scientific investigation into a given event and in criminal cases has gone through the courts. As in the case of explosions at the twin towers the sounds were recorded which gives weight to any witnesses that think they may of heard an explosion. and likewise people who say they saw planes hit the buildings is corroborated by all the film footage.

At the Pentagon this type of evidence is absent therefore there is no corroborating evidence. And it begs the question that id the Goverment does have any real evidence of the attack why has it not been made public.

reply to post by magicmushroom


ok then, what would qualify as proof? or even evidence? (we do all know and agree that they arent the same yeah?)

i mean do you want them to post the photo's of the bodies where they were found on the net? cmon....if there was even a chance that was your sister would you want that photo released...ever?

i mean its not like they'd have let an "independant" group come in to supervise the evidence collection. and if they had...would you trust THEM to not be part of it?

our tax money goes to pay professionals to do certain jobs. law enforcement, fire fighting, military. certainly they cant all be corrupt? or were plans in place to only have the corrupt ones in on the initial investigations?

i mean craig is saying that ALL of the evidence (sorry if i misread that but thats what i got out of it) is tainted simply because its in govt hands or was handled by govt people at some point in the chain of custody...

ok so i go kill someone then claim the cops set me up and since they have all the evidence its invalid? hmmmm.......

i mean, by now the truth movement has to know that the independant investigation taht even a guy like me would agree is a good idea isnt possible. there is NO evidence of value that hasnt gone through a govt officials hands.

so what then is the point?

Originally posted by Damocles
ok i see now.

but they DID turn over control of a military site to a military authority.

that actually doesnt suprise me. any crime committed on an army installation is handled by CID regardless.

Well by law anytime a aircraft crash is considered a crime the FBI becomes the lead investigating agency with technical help from the NTSB.

I am just curous if someone could have stepped in and told the FBI to stand down?

Dam, the point is that there is a very good chance that people within the US have plotted to kill more than 3k of their own citizens as an excuse to wage war for power and profit and two also provide forward deployment bases in the ME.

We can collectively try to do something about this or we can just continue to let our elected/unelected leaders commit mass murder on a regular basis.