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Originally posted by Truth4hire
My opinion as I mentioned earlier is that I do not think Auschwitz was a death camp and that most victims died of malnutrition and disease at the latter stages of the war due to insuficcient supplies reaching the concentration camps which, in turn was caused by a breakdown of the German railway infrastructure caused by Allied bombings.
The video uses Jewish historical data, and within the first twenty minutes it beoms clear that their own information on the death tolls does not even come close to the "6 Million figure". For Auschwitz the "official" number of casualties is around one million, Jews and gentile together. Bad enough in itself ofcourse.
Add: noone can deny the pictures of the skeletons and starving survivors, but this does not deter me from my belief mentioned above. Fact is there was a swimming pool located inside the prisoner´s compound. There was a theatre in Auschwitz. A hospital. Nurses. The Red Cross visited Auschwitz numerous times and have never once mentioned genocide or gassings. People were writing letters from inside Auschwitz. There was a music group. There were study groups.
If you just look at the pool. Why o why have a pool in a death camp? It is there, watch the doc. We have been lied for over sixty years about Auschwitz I say. And if the current trend continues in Europe, I might go to jail for up to five years if I say so in public in the near future. Interesting, don´t you think?
[edit on 1-2-2007 by Truth4hire]
Originally posted by whitewave
I once took care of an old man in the ICU and saw the number tatoo on his forearm. He was in and out of consciousness and didn't make a lot of sense when he was awake. My other patient was actively dying and the whole code team was in there shocking his heart to keep it beating. The family of the dying man were unwilling to admit he was dying and told us to "do everything" to keep him alive. We kept shocking him, temporarily snatching him away from death's door but eventually the electrical current began to burn his flesh. This was extremely distressing to all of us and we begged the family to accept the inevitable. What finally turned the tide in this tragic case was the smell of burning flesh permeating the ICU. The old man with the number tatooed on his forearm suddenly became alert and began screaming hysterically in (what we assumed was) Hebrew. His wife explained that he thought he was back in Auschwitz. It took a lot of Ativan to calm him down. I'm fairly sure he wasn't in on the "cover-up conspiracy" to make us all believe there were unspeakable horrors for which no evidence exists. HE was evidence enough for me. (G_D rest his tortured soul.)
Originally posted by Hvitserk
short questions to you all
before i ask my question and to make things clear i'm pro freedom of speech even if it sometimes may shock
ok now to the point : in most european countries , denying the holocaust is considered as "thought crime" and punished by fines and even prison sentences
i'd be curious to know about similar laws in your respective countries of origin
and maybe if you agree or not
PS : for people in the US who can make it or have the opportunity , visit the holocaust memorial museum in Washington DC , i did a few years ago , it is definitely worth it
Originally posted by the smoking beagle
Originally posted by kenochi
This is real life we're talking about, not a Hollywood screenplay.
What's your opinion on "Der ewige Jude" ?
Originally posted by kenochi
This is a terrible event, but has been grossly exaggerated by the allies and then some historians, for a number of reasons.
And these reasons are ?
Originally posted by kenochi
The fact is that there is not one solid piece of evidence to support the gas chamber / 11 million claim.
So the Nazis did not target any particular group of people ?
Not the claimed 6 million Jews ?
Or the claimed 5 million non Jews?
Originally posted by kenochi
those who were identified as enemies of the state
under what criteria were they identified ??
Originally posted by kenochi
I didn't say that Hilberg and Pressac denied the existence of gas chambers. I said that even they accept that evidence for them is virtually non-existent.
People seem to be having trouble reading what I'm writing without inventing extra stuff that I didn't actually say.
Anyone objective reading this thread will see who is trying to
be logical and present rational arguments and who is arguing with hysteria and irrational hatred.
The Allies exaggerated Nazi war crimes for two reasons
Secondly, because the 'World Jewish Congress' a powerful group in the 30s and 40s issued a statement on behalf of the world's jews 'declaring war' on Germany in 1933.
Oh please the Red Cross visiting doesn't mean anything. It's like with Guntanamo Bay today
Originally posted by kenochi
In terms of the forensic evidence which you mention, there are many inconsistencies, tied up with which rooms are tested. Rooms which were used to disinfect and delouse clothing and bedding, which was the real purpose of Zyklon B - it was a fumigant and delousing agent, in common use in Europe at that time - obviously contain traces of it. There are many anomalies with most of the rooms alleged to be gas chambers (which were all either shower rooms, morgues or air-raid shelters) and this was picked up on in the Leuchter report, the report of Germar Rudolf and also an independent enquiry comissioned by the Polish government which corroborates Leuchter's findings, despite the campaign by the Holocaust industry to discredit him.
A larger room adjacent to the four dis-infestation chambers is also a gas chamber but this one was designed specifically for homicidal purposes. Any doubts that this chamber is a gas chamber are rapidly dispelled upon viewing the exhaust vents on the ceiling of the room , the exhaust chimney on the roof , and the metal doors that are identical in design to those used by the dis-infestation gas chambers . It would appear that the fake shower heads on the ceiling of the chamber , the sign over the door stating Brausebad (shower room) and the smooth brick finish simulating tiling (see below) were part of an elaborate ploy to make the victims believe they were going to take a bath after having deposited their clothes in the passageway connecting the disinfestation chambers with the homicidal chamber.
Further evidence of its design as a homicidal chamber are the two bin-like drawers leading from the gas chamber to the exterior. The only possible explanation for these bins is that they were designed to receive the granules of Zyklon-B (or some other lethal volatile poison) from a small tin. The person in charge of a homicidal gassing need only don a gas mask, open the two bins, and dump part of a small tin of Zyklon-B into each one. Having done this, the operator would close the bins, which are protected from interference from the victims by a protective grating, and wait a few minutes until all the victims were dead. At this point, the powerful mechanical extractor could be energized sending the poisonous fumes into the atmosphere, drawing fresh air through a small hatchway located above the bins. The bodies could then be moved into the mortuary chamber to await incineration in the adjoining crematory furnaces.
.......A suspicious and heretofore unexplained structure bears mentioning.
What appears to be a wooden screen blocking the area where the bin-like drawers are located on the eastern wall of the new crematorium (Baracke X) can be observed in photographs taken immediately after the camp was liberated by the Americans. (See also above.) This screen seems to be about 16 feet wide and six feet deep. It does not appear to have any roof-covering. If it was indeed a screen, it would have allowed operation of the bin-like drawers by one or more perpetrators without any possibility of being observed by any casual bystanders.
Neither the reports by the U.S. Army, Father Hess nor Sack prove conclusively that the homicidal chamber was used to kill people. Until further evidence is discovered, historians will have to conform themselves with the knowledge that it was technically possible to have murdered human beings with poison gas in that room, and that the room, some 16x16x12ft high, was designed for the exclusive purpose of carrying out such a grim task. This circumstance does not free the perpetrators of their crimes. No matter in what manner the tens of thousands of unfortunate people in Dachau lost their lives, they were murdered as surely as if they had been placed in a gas chamber and asphyxiated with hydrogen cyanide gas. The intentional destruction of human life by whatever means is still murder. It is quite sufficient, for the moment, to demonstrate that the Nazis intended to use a homicidal gas chamber in Dachau, and that they designed, built and equipped such a chamber in the Dachau Concentration Camp.
Originally posted by kenochi
A photograph of inmates in camp uniform at Belsen, or lying on crowded bunks at Dachau, or getting off the train at Auschwitz doesn't prove anything about gas chambers.
It proves that many people wer e imprisoned in the camp system in Germany.
A blueprint, which is of a crematoria with a morgue attached, shows that the camps were equipped to deal with inmate death,
Eyewitness testimony which discusses train journeys, life in the camps and various forms of mistreatment proves that the Nazis were anti-semitic, but doesn't prove anything about gassing.
This is the nature of the evidence that Hilberg and Pressac and other historians present,
in which the conditions were often appalling and caused many of them to die.
But I fail to understand how any rational human being can see this as evidence for the gas chambers.
Rooms which were used to disinfect and delouse clothing and bedding, which was the real purpose of Zyklon B - it was a fumigant and delousing agent, in common use in Europe at that time - obviously contain traces of it. There are many anomalies with most of the rooms alleged to be gas chambers (which were all either shower rooms, morgues or air-raid shelters) and this was picked up on in the Leuchter report,
with no formal training in either chemistry or toxicology (he obtained a BA in history in 1964), and yet he claims to be a professional engineer [...] unfamiliar with the most basic facts about the lethal gas Hydrogen Cyanide, including its flammability and the concentrations required for delousing purposes.
and also an independent enquiry comissioned by the Polish government which corroborates Leuchter's findings
In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later.
The question near the end of your post is a bizarre one and is indicative of the confusion and irrationality of one who blindly clings to a belief for emotional or personal reasons and is not prepared to listen to arguments to the contrary.
You ask me to prove that there weren't gas chambers!
This flies in the face of all epistemology and standard investigative method.
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, even historians on your side accept that we can't prove that gas chambers existed.
In terms of refuting the confessions of Nazis, I already mentioned a book called 'Legions of Death'
Deniers depend very heavily upon Hoess supposedly being coerced and fed a story. But they only have two pieces of evidence:
A lurid book by one Rupert Butler called Legions of Death. Butler tells of seeing Hoess beaten when he was first found. He makes no mention of the interrogators being Jewish agents in British uniform, of course.
And most importantly, Butler's version of what happened contradicts the deniers' hypothesis that Hoess was fed a story. Butler's book nowhere mentions Hoess being given a particular story to tell, it simply says Hoess was beaten.
in which the men who obtained some of the most famous Nazi confessions admit that they gained them through torture and death threats to families
The real answer is that this claim of "Jewish interrogators in British uniform" appears nowhere else in Holocaust-denier literature. This claim appears only in the "Q&A." There is no evidence whatsoever to support it.
In other words, someone just made it up. Later, someone else decided they'd better quietly drop the whole thing. How many of the other 65 Q&A are similar? We can't know, because they don't provide any evidence to back any of them up.
Regarding the Höss confession:
We must consider all information in context. There are numerous other testimonies which confirm the essential facts of Höss' confession. There are captured documents which speak very clearly of gassing and mass shooting
If there was an attempt by his Polish captors to falsify these memoirs or to have Höss lie, this information would have never appeared.[...]It appears that his harsh treatment was caused by Jewish sergeants in the arresting party whose parents had died at Auschwitz.[...]Höss was turned over to the International Military Tribunal to testify because the defense attorney for accused war criminal Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the former head of Reich Main Security, wanted him as a witness. Höss writes (180) that compared to where he had been before, "imprisonment with the IMT was like staying in a health spa." He was then handed over to the Poles to stand trial in Cracow, Poland. He describes (181) his first weeks in prison as "quite tolerable." However, the attitudes of the guards changed for the worse. Both he and Polish prisoners were mistreated. The prosecutor's office intervened and things changed. "I have to openly confess that I never would have expected to be treated so decently and so kindly in a Polish prison as I have been since the intervention of the prosecutor's office."
If a legal process has to resort to torture in order to prove its case, it suggests the lack of real proof.
Again, this is accepted by standard holocaust historians
the gas chamber at Dachau is the subject of considerable controversy. ....This obviously is intended to create the impression that it was a disguised homicidal gas chamber, as per the Holocaust story. However, pictures of the room taken when the Americans liberated the camp in 1945 show a skull and crossbones on the door, with the words 'Gaskammer! Vorsicht Lebensgefahr!" which means 'Gas room! Danger to life!' (roughly).
It appears that some tampering has gone on. As we already know (as admitted by Francisek Piper) that fake gas chambers were built at Auschwitz and other camps post war, by the allies (mainly the Poles and Russians) it is fairly likely the same thing happened there.
Plans were drawn up in April, 1942 for a more efficient four-furnace crematory which, from its early planning days, incorporated five gas chambers. 14 On July 23, 1942, the order was issued from the SS Headquarters in Berlin to commence construction of the crematorium at a cost of RM150,000. 15
Anyway, even if we forget all that - and make the rather large leap of
faith required to assume that it is a genuine Nazi gas chamber - it would make it the only one they found, mysteriously left undestroyed, unlike all the others, and yet no-one thinks they used it. Doesn't that strike you as odd? Even Simon Wiesenthal, of all people, publicly stated in 1975 that 'there were no extermination camps on German soil'. (He and virtually all other holocaust spokesmen / historians believe all the extermninations were in Poland).
Originally, however, after the Nuremburg circus, Dachau was part of the legend. Nazis were tried and hanged for exterminations there.
And yes, coincidentally I've actually been to Dachau, as well as Sachsenhausen near Berlin. At the latter I was taken on a tour and shown the 'extermination facilities'. It seems no-one has told them that the legend doesn't include them any more.
Extract from the trial of Anton Kaindl, former commandant of Sachsenhausen Death Camp
Public Prosecutor: What kind of exterminations were committed in your camp?
- Kaindl: Until mid of 1943, prisoners were killed by shooting or hanging. For the mass exterminations, we used a special room in the infirmary. There was a height gauge and a table with an eye scope. There were also some SS wearing doctor uniforms. There was a hole at the back of the height gauge. While a SS was measuring the height of a prisoner, another one placed his gun in the hole and killed him by shooting in his neck. Behind the height gauge there was another room where we played music in order to cover the noise of the shooting.
- Public Prosecutor: Do you know if there was already an extermination procedure in Sachsenhausen when you became commandant of the camp?
- Kaindl: Yes, there were several procedures. With the special room in the infirmary, there was also an execution place where prisoners were killed by shooting, a mobile gallows and a mechanical gallows which was used for hanging three or four prisoners at the same time.
- Public Prosecutor: Did you change anything in these extermination procedures?
- Kaindl: In march 1943, I introduced gas chambers for the mass exterminations.
- Public Prosecutor: Was it your own decision?
- Kaindl: Partially yes. Because the existing installations were too small and not sufficient for the exterminations, I decided to have a meeting with some SS officers, including the SS Chief Doctor Baumkotter. During this meeting, he told me that poisoning of prisoners by prussic acid in special chambers would cause an immediate death. After this meeting, I decided to install gas chambers in the camp for mass extermination because it was a more efficient and more humane way to exterminate prisoners.
- Public Prosecutor: Who was responsible for the extermination?
- Kaindl: The commandant of the camp.
- Public Prosecutor: So, it was you?
- Kaindl: Yes.
- Public Prosecutor: How many prisoners were exterminated in Sachsenhausen while you were commandant of the camp?
- Kaindl: More than 42,000 prisoners were exterminated under my command, this number include 18.000 killed in the camp itself.
- Public Prosecutor: And how many prisoners died by starvation during this same period?
- Kaindl: I think 8,000 prisoners died by starvation during this period.
- Public Prosecutor: Accused Kaindl, did you receive the order to destroy any evidence of the murders committed in the camp?
- Kaindl: Yes. On February 1st, 1945, I had a conversation with the chief of the Gestapo, Muller. He ordered me to destroy the camp with artillery bombing, aerial bombing or by spraying gas. But due to technical problems, this order coming directly from Himmler was impossible to fulfill.
- Public Prosecutor: Suppose that there was no technical problem, would you have carried out this order?
- Kaindl: Of course. But it was impossible. An artillery or an aerial bombing was impossible to hide from the local population. And spraying gas was too dangerous for the local population and the SS.
- Public Prosecutor: What did you do then?
- Kaindl: I had a meeting with Hohn and some others SS and I ordered to exterminate all the ill prisoners, those who were unable to work and, the most important, all the political prisoners.
- Public Prosecutor: Was this order fulfilled?
- Kaindl: Yes, partially. During the night of February 2th, the first prisoners were killed. There were plus or minus 150 prisoners. Until end of March 1945, we succeed in killing more than 5,000 prisoners.
- Public Prosecutor: Who was in charge of this operation?
- Kaindl: Accused Hohn was in charge of this operation.
- Public Prosecutor: How many prisoners were in the camp at this time?
- Kaindl: Approximately 45,000. On April 18th I was ordered to embark all the prisoners on barges and to conduct the barge on the Baltic sea where I had to sink it. But we had not enough time to find enough barges for so many prisoners because the Red Army was advancing too fast.
- Public Prosecutor: What happened then?
- Kaindl: I ordered the evacuation of all the prisoners able to walk, first in direction of Wittstock, then to Lubeck where they had to embark on ships and sunk.
- Public Prosecutor: Did the prisoners received any care during this evacuation?
- Kaindl: No. 7,000 prisoners received nothing because we had nothing to give them.