It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

One Third Of The Holocaust:More Compelling Evidence It Never Happened

page: 11
23
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 3 2007 @ 04:48 PM
link   
I haven't had the chance to read through all ten pages of this topic, nor do I have time at the moment to sit and watch the documentary, so I apologise if someone has already made the points I'm about to make.

However, I must point out - as others have - that the vast bulk of evidence suggests that the Holocaust did happen. We have the documents (read the minutes of the Wannsee Conference and some literature about it), the camps, the photographs, the survivors, the soldiers who liberated the camps, the testimonies of some of those involved (I highly recommend a book called 'Ordinary Men' by Christopher Browning which describes the experiences of Reserve Police Battalion 101, how apparently ordinary people become involved in genocide and the unit's role in the Holocaust - the testimonies put forward by the people who served in that battalion are chilling), as well as numerous other forms of proof.

We also know that the Nazis have done this kind of thing before to those they deemed unacceptable, such as the T4 euthanasia programme in which disabled and mentally ill persons were quietly murdered.

With regards to the Red Cross visiting Auschwitz... it is true that this did happen, although their tour was strictly limited. They did not have permission to roam about the camp freely, so the report can hardly be considered conclusive.


Rumors of gas chambers could not be verified because the delegates were expressly forbidden from visiting the Auschwitz Krema, where the gas chambers and cremation facilities were.


Testimony from a doctor at the Auschwitz camp:-

I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, and well-functioning washrooms.


Source

If you ever get the chance, go and visit one of the various museums around the world dedicated to the Holocaust. I've visited the Holocaust Exhibition in the Imperial War Museum in London, which is very eye-opening. They have a collection of clothing from the camps, plus recorded testimonies (in the forms of diaries, videos etc.) and numerous other relevant items, including a huge model of the layout of the Auschwitz camp. I found it extremely poignant and, in places, very distressing also. It's difficult to believe that some people still deny that the Holocaust happened.

[edit on 3/3/07 by Ste2652]




posted on Mar, 3 2007 @ 04:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by kenochi
I am saying that this sort of evidence represents the vast majority of what Hilberg and Pressac present. There is very little evidence for the existence of gas chambers presented in their book


www.nizkor.org...
As for the crematoria, Pressac's new work on the subject has been condensed and edited by Robert-Jan Van Pelt and Michael Berenbaum into a chapter for a soon-to-be released book on the Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp (1994). What is most striking about Pressac's work is the documentation of the evolutionary process of improving the crematoria, and all the problems the Nazis had along the way





Why would they build gas chambers that are set up like showers? They didn’t. Rather than making baseless assertions, go and find some real evidence or proof for the existence of homicidal gas chambers.

They had cyanide gassing chambers:

www.nizkor.org...
Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz of the Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal gas chambers, i.e., Krema I, Krema II, Krema III, Krema IV, Krema V, and the cellars of Bunker 11, at levels above other facilities in the AB complex.



They had Disel Fume Gas Chambers:
www.nizkor.org...
And Cyanide Gas Human Extermination Chambers:
www.nizkor.org...

Even admissions from the engineering companies contracted to build them:
www.nizkor.org...

And Even holocaust denial organizations offering rewards for gas chamber evidence have agreed to pay it out:
www.nizkor.org...


The use of cyanide gas was part of the camp’s routine fumigations

In rooms attached to crematoria and the camp morgue eh? And we just magically have higher concentrations of cyanide products in those areas that people were saying they saw and sent human beings to be gassed to death eh?


and the admissions from Nazis were made under duress.

They were not all made under durress, and their statements independently corroborate each other. Further, no one has given any proof that they were given a story to tell. Some of them, like Hoess, got beaten after capture, this was by jewish troopers who's parents had died at the camp he was operating. And none of that lead to them forcing him to tell a story, and he continued to tell the truth after he had been sent to other prisons, which he himself said were decent and that he wasn't being tortured at.


But none of the blueprints have homicidal gas chambers on them. They have morgues, delousing rooms etc.

There are delousing rooms. And then there are extra gassing chambers connected to the morgue and crematoria, and these, again, 'just happen' to be the very buildings that the nazis and survivors said that people were sent to for gassing. True, they weren't labeled "Jew Killing Station 1".




This kind of testimony is scant.

That is false. The testimony is not 'scant', there are numerous reports from camp prisoners, and from the nazis themselves.


They contradict each other and are unreliable.

They independently corroborate each other. It doesn't matter that on some issues, some people saw different things.


Here is the views of one of the judges from the War Crimes Trials…

And yet the judges were able to look at the evidence objectively and conclude that they had tried to exterminate the jews. They clearly werent' engaged in a conspiracy, or else they wouldn't've even mentioned that there were any problems with the evidence.
Further, we have MORE evidence from after the trials that further demonstrates what they were up to.




In his Nuremburg affidavit, Hoess confessed to killing 3 million Jews and 1 million non-Jews while commandant at Auschwitz.
Hoess states that his camp killed around 2 million Jews.


Why would Hoess exaggerate his own crimes unless he was being coerced?

Hoess wasn't being coerced.


Hoess states in his confession that it took ‘from 3 to 15 minutes’ to kill Jews in the gas chambers. And that the ‘sonderkommando’ would then enter the room to remove the bodies. No mention is made of gas extraction facilities and none can be seen at the ‘gas chamber’ shown to tourists at Auschwitz

There are air vents to vent the gas and disperse it.


. Half an hour would not have been enough time for the gas to disperse, even with extraction fans.


www.nizkor.org...
Fifteen minutes was ample time to replace the air after a gassing. When ventilation was not used, the Sonderkommando (prisoners used as forced labor) who removed the bodies wore gas masks[...]
. The SS didn't care much for the safety of the Sonderkommando who had to enter the gas chambers to take the corpses out in any event. In some cases, these people did suffer from the remaining gas (see, for instance, Pressac, p. 473)

Furthermore, what makes ventilation difficult and lengthy is the presence of rugs, furniture, curtains, etc. Needless to say, these were not present in the gas chambers - there was just bare concrete, making ventilation very fast and efficient.




In another separate statement he said the sonderkommando performed this task ‘while smoking’ even though Zyklon B is flammable!


www.nizkor.org...
that the concentration of HCN necessary to cause death is nearly 200 times lower than that necessary to cause an explosion. Although the SS used a concentration higher than the lethal one, it was far less than what would be required to cause an explosion. [...]]
As a reference, one can look at "The Merck Index" and the "CRC handbook of Chemistry and Physics", or consult any manual dealing with toxicity and flammability of chemicals. For HCN, a concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a few minutes (Merck, 632, entry 4688), while the minimal concentration that can result in an explosion is 56,000 ppm.




The fact is that Belzek and Treblinka did not open until 1942

They were moving jews into those camps in 1942, but they had created the camps prior to that. Hoess says

www.nizkor.org...
I was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there were already in the general government three other extermination camps; Belzek, Treblinka, and Wolzek.

And deportations to Belzec STOP in 1942:

www.nizkor.org...
Deportations to Belzec ended in December, 1942, and the transports stopped. Most of the Jews in the General Government were already dead, and Sobibor and Treblinka would handle any that weren't.

And they start in Treblinka in 1942

According to the Stroop report a total of approximately 310,000 Jews were transported in freight trains from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka during the period from July 22, 1942 to October 3, 1942



So either the camps were created prior to their sending jews into them (which seems rather obvious), or Hoess messed his dates up. Does somethign having happened in early 1942 instead of mid-1941 mean that there was no holocaust somehow?



Wolzek is apparently something Hoess made up, it never existed and is not listed on any map.

So, they forced and tortured Hoess to give a confession, and then he...made up a place that didn't exist, or was fed a story about a camp that didnt' exist? No, rather, his description of Wolzek matches Sobibor, which he never mentions at the same time as Wolzek. He called Sobibor Wolzek

www.nizkor.org...
he gavedirections to this nonexistent camp which could lead one to a very real extermination camp with a different name, a camp which others called an extermination camp under its correct name. Quite an amazing coincidence















I’ve read a translation of the Polish government’s report and can confirm that it broadly (not exactly) corroborates Leuchter despite what Nizkor say.

The polish government is the very authority that is saying 4 million jews were killed at Aushwitz! Are you saying that they don't beleive that there were homocidal gas chambers there?



Will try to find that for you.

I already provided it:
www.nizkor.org...
In particular:

www.nizkor.org...
In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later.


That is a quote from the report. Are you saying Nizkor is fabricating the report?



I am assuming you haven’t read Pressac’s or Hilberg’s books. Neither contains so much as a photograph, nor a drawing, nor a sketch, nor a model of a homicidal gas chamber.

Since the nazis dyanmited the chambers, it shouldn't be a surprise that there aren't any photos of it after the war.
There are, of course, photographs of it before hand, and forensic studies that show that they were used as homocidal gas chambers.
www.nizkor.org...



The few pages that actually discuss gas chambers do so purely on the basis of eyewitness testimony.

These are direclty from
Pressac, Jean Claude. Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY: 1989

Krema II
www.nizkor.org...
Krema IV
www.nizkor.org...







“Sources for the study of gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable” Jacques Baynac

Baynac is making a statement about the ability to scientifically 'prove' that the chambers existed. He feels that it can't be scientifically proven, that is his conclusion on the matter. He does not say that any of the evidence that exists is fake, he does not refute any of the evidence that exists. He merely feels, or at least felt in 1996, that it couldn't be solidly scientifically proven.
And Baynac did not make the above quote, it was Arno Mayer

Mayer was making a distinction between sources 'of' the chambers, and sources 'for the study of' the chambers, that is, apparently, testimonies versus nazi work orders.


www.nizkor.org...
To date there is no certainty about who gave the order, and when, to install the gas chambers used for the murder of Jews at Auschwitz. As no written command has been located, there is a strong presumption that the order was issued and received orally.


We've allways known that there wasn't an on paper order to 'build gas chambers to kill the jews'. Mayer's statement changes nothing.



the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and synchronization.” Raul Hilberg

It makes no sense to quote Hilberg as an authority to say there are no gas chambers when he says there are gas chambers.



“the history of the genocide and the homicidal gas chambers is mainly in the form of oral or written witness testimony, which is always fallible" Jean Claude Pressac

Yes, mainly. The bullk of the evidence is in the form of eye witness testimony.

If you're going to tell me that all these people, independently, some of them prisoners, and some of them nazi camp operators, made the same errors, that they made errors that confirm one another, and that an eye witness can't be certain if they themselves moved people into a gas chamber, then, I'm sorry, but yer nuts. Can a witness not remember the face of a person that attacked them, or what date a set of attacks, muggings, etc, were on, or can they make mistakes in multiple retellings of their daily events for a specific date, sure. BUt all of them mistakenly remember gas chambers when they didn't exist? AND when the forensic evidence, which isn't a huge amount, but is clearly enough, corroborates their story, AND when the Nazis themselves siad that they wanted to get rid of the jews???
No way. Utterly unbeleivable. You'll have to present some sort of evidence at least.



As I have said several times now. Standard holocaust historians accept that the evidence is virtually non-existent.

That is not what they are saying. You are taking 'the bulk of the evidence is testimony' and saying 'there, there's no physical evidence'. They do not 'accept that the evidence is virtually non-existant', thats a factually incorrect statement.

[edit on 3-3-2007 by Nygdan]

[edit on 3-3-2007 by Nygdan]



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 01:31 AM
link   
Nygdan,
nice to see that you have moved from basically just saying 'that's not true' 'that's false' etc, to trying to explain what I say. It shows that you're actually engaging with it. In so doing, however you are clutching at straws and your argument has fallen apart, to the point where you have pretty much agreed with me.
I said from the beginning, calmly and rationally, despite name-calling and childish arguments from yourself and others that there is no real evidence other than eyewitness reports (which are recognised within the legal profession as the least reliable form of evidence) for the existence of gas chambers or a plan to exterminate the jews. You stated that this is false.
I then provided you with quotes from respected historians, not deniers, to support this. You then frantically try to explain some of them while continuing to chatter on about evidence that doesn't exist, using quotes from Nizkor etc. You might notice that I am not quoting Ernst Zundel or David Irving or Robert Faurisson, which would be the equivalent of what you're doing. I am using respected historical sources to support my case, not polemical internet nonsense. However, in your desperation, you write things which completely refute what you said previously.
What you are doing is typical of the blind believer - you are basically refusing to accept that which is staring you in the face.
When Baynac said 'evidence for the existence of gas chambers is at once rare and reliable', you interpret this as 'Baynac is making a statement about the ability to scientifically 'prove' that the chambers existed. He feels that it can't be scientifically proven, that is his conclusion on the matter.'
I more or less agree with you there. But I think, bearing in mind what we're talking about, you need to substitute the word 'scientifically' for 'historically'. If you do that, and read it back, you'll see that what you wrote there is what I've been saying since the beginning.
You also continue to deliberately obfuscate some of what I'm saying to counter it because you can't counter what I'm really saying - indicative of desperation. Once again, please pay attention - I am not claiming that Hilberg denies gas chambers. This is the third or fourth time I've said this! I am claiming that he accepts that evidence for them, besides unreliable eyewitness stuff is scant. Pressac also accepts this, as the quotes I gave you show. So do all serious academics who write on the holocaust.
You don't want to accept this because it does not fit your belief system. But you have to, if you want to discuss the topic maturely, because it is the reality.
Look at the links you gave to Pressac's book. What pictures are they? As I said to you once before, evidence for what? We have blueprints of crematoria and morgues and pictures of people standing around. This is exactly what I told you was in it a couple of posts ago, when you responded to me with sarcasm and said 'good job'. I have the book.
There is nothing other than eyewitness testimony regarding gas chambers in it.
Anyway - I'm pretty busy today, so don't know if I'll return. If anyone replies, please try to be succint. To move the debate on, lets just focus on gas chambers - that's the real crux of the matter. See if you can find some real evidence for their existence other than eyewitness testimony, which even Jean Claude Pressac accepts is 'fallible' and which a Nuremburg judge described as 'not corresponding to absolute truth'. (see my last post)
What people need to understand is that this is a piece of history, to be reviewed and analysed like any other. It is not good and evil, us and them, 'fight the good fight' as one commenter put. If you're thinking in those terms you need to switch your computer off and go watch some cartoons. Because that's where that sort of rationale belongs.



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 12:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by kenochi
It shows that you're actually engaging with it.

I've been engaging in this discussion from the begining. People have made unsubstantiated claims, and I have pointed that out, or have stated that they were in fact wrong. Why should I provide far more evidence show that something is wrong that is ever offered to support it? I mean, a little more, sure, but far more? That doesn't make anysense. I have repeatedly been asking people in this and other holocaust threads for actual evidence, and its never presented. The closest anyone's come is your post, and, not for nothing, but it was basically a list of 'old holocaust denial arguements that have been refuted'. All of these issues have been addressed before, why ignore that, why just repeat the same arguements when they've been shown to be wrong?



to the point where you have pretty much agreed with me.

I've been saying that the Nazis planned to exterminate the jews, that they put them into camps, that they killed around 6 million, and that they used gas chambers and the like in doing this.
If you are saying you agree with that, then fine.



I said from the beginning, calmly and rationally, despite name-calling and childish arguments from yourself

What? I haven't been name calling? If someone is going to say that evil jews are lying about the holocaust, how am I name calling in pointing out what kind of thinking that is? How is it childish to request to discuss the evidence?


and others that there is no real evidence other than eyewitness reports (which are recognised within the legal profession as the least reliable form of evidence) for the existence of gas chambers or a plan to exterminate the jews. You stated that this is false.

ANd I showed that it was false, by pointing out the documentary and forensic evidence, all of which corroborates the eye witness testimony and confessions.


I then provided you with quotes from respected historians, not deniers, to support this.

You did no such thing. You took people who discussed the relative amounts of evidence, and then tried to say that they agree there is practically no evidence for the gas chambers. That is NOT what they said, they said that MOST of the evidence is in the form of eyewitness testimony, that is obviously true, there are far more eyewtiness testimonies than physical evidence, but there is still physical evidence for it. YOu took people who were making an academic and fine line distinction about evidence for the chambers, and evidence for the study of the chambers, and tried to say that they said there was no evidence for the chambers. They did not say that. The closest you have is Baynac, who is using a particular working of scientific criteria for 'absolute proof', and saying that he doesn't beleive we can absolutely prove that the chambers were there. That is his assesment of the evidence on a stringent scientific criteria, with that criteria, we wouldn't be able to say that george washington existed, having only personal testimony, and some structures alleged to have belonged to him.


[quote[]You might notice that I am not quoting Ernst Zundel or David Irving or Robert Faurisson, which would be the equivalent of what you're doing.
Since those men are liars, its not the same. Nizkor isn't lying. If you beleive it is, feel free to show that it is. Zundel et al perpetuate falsehoods that have been shown to be wrong.


I am using respected historical sources to support my case, not polemical internet nonsense.

Quoting the Polish government's refutation of Leuchter's worthless 'study' is nonesense?



When Baynac said 'evidence for the existence of gas chambers is at once rare and reliable',

Again, as I pointed out, Baynac did not say this. Mayer said this.


you interpret this as 'Baynac is making a statement about the ability to scientifically 'prove' that the chambers existed. He feels that it can't be scientifically proven, that is his conclusion on the matter.'
I more or less agree with you there. But I think, bearing in mind what we're talking about, you need to substitute the word 'scientifically' for 'historically'.

You specifically can not do that. Historical studies are seperate and different from scientific studies. The study of history can be a rational endeavour, but it is not anything like a physical scientific study. I can, in an historical study, say that such and such event happened, likesay the boston tea party, because of the records. I can not say, in chemistry, that such an such reaction occurs via a particular mechanism, merely because someone has reported that it happened. In a chemical reaction, the compounds will reach a Transition State, we report the Transition State as being a real thing, but it, that class of things called Transition States, haven't been demonstrated, and infact can't be demostrated. That does not mean that chemical reactions don't occur.



I am not claiming that Hilberg denies gas chambers. This is the third or fourth time I've said this! I am claiming that he accepts that evidence for them, besides unreliable eyewitness stuff is scant. Pressac also accepts this, as the quotes I gave you show. So do all serious academics who write on the holocaust.

And you are channging the meaning of there being a preponderance of eyewitness testimony and not as much physical evidence into 'there is virutally no evidence' for the chambers.

And, agian, the physical evidence corroborates the eyewitness testimony. Eye witness testimony is by is nature not as reliable as physical evidence, these historians are of course correct in saying that. They all are still able to conclude, given the phsyical evidence, which corroborates the eye witness testimony and affirms it, that the gas chambers exist. You are taking a statement on the nature of eyewitness testimony (its in great volume and of course can be unreliable), and changing it into 'these men know there is practically no evidence for the gas chambers'. That is false.


Look at the links you gave to Pressac's book. What pictures are they? As I said to you once before, evidence for what?


We have blueprints of crematoria and morgues and pictures of people standing around. This is exactly what I told you was in it a couple of posts ago,

You had said that there weren't any photos of the gas chambers. And when you can explain why a camp would need a gas chamber with a door that leads into a morgue, and is in association with a crematorium, and that has different levels of cyanide gas products (iow, levels that would be approriate to killing humans, but nice lice and beetles) than the seperate and other insectide gas chambers, then you'd be on to something.


There is nothing other than eyewitness testimony regarding gas chambers in it.

Pressac present evidence for the gas chambers, you are ignoring it and saying that it doesn't count, because you can imagine another use for it, even though that use is inconsistent with the evidence.

[quote[See if you can find some real evidence for their existence other than eyewitness testimony,
And you go on to ignore teh forensic evidence that has been collected beyond Pressac. Can you see why so many people reject holocaust denial? Its not because 'they're pawns of a jewish system of brainwashing', its because the evidence refutes it and the deniers ignore it.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:22 AM
link   
'pawns of a Jewish system of brainwashing' - where did that come from? And why have you put it in quotes, as if I wrote it?

I think we have a case of wartime propaganda, established as 'fact' by a series of rigged trials and then perpetuated by an unwitting media and used cynically to justify the creation and behaviour of the state of Israel.
You can quote that if you like, because that's what I really think.

Obviously, I disagree with your points, but I am extremely bored of repeating myself and so will restrict myself to a brief response. There is no worthwhile evidence for gas chambers other than eyewitness testimony. That's a fact. And if you got yourself off the internet for a while, obtained and read the books I'm talking about, you would have to accept that, as others do.
A blueprint, for example, which is of a room that has no features which distinguish it as gas chamber and is labelled with the words 'morgue' or 'crematorium' is not evidence for gas chambers. Just because someone says 'I think that was a gas chamber' doesn't make it true. I could take a picture of your house and say there's a gas chamber in it. That would amount to the same thing.
And revisionism is actually growing in popularity, not fading as you suggest. As more rational people see the paucity of evidence for the story, they are rejecting it on the basis of reasoning and logic. The fact that this is happening, despite attempts by several governments to make revisionism a 'thought crime', a move which Hitler himself would be proud of, is evidence of the strength of its argument.

'freedom is being able to say 2+2=4. Everything else comes from that."
george orwell '1984'



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:26 AM
link   
PS - I never said anything about 'evil jews' either. You're just makiing that up. That's what I mean - childish.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 07:09 AM
link   

Originally posted by kenochi

I think we have a case of wartime propaganda, established as 'fact' by a series of rigged trials and then perpetuated by an unwitting media and used cynically to justify the creation and behaviour of the state of Israel.
You can quote that if you like, because that's what I really think.



Fine. It's a free world, so you can believe what you like. The fact that there is a vast amount of evidence that blows the claim you make above to pieces is obviouslt irrelevant to you, as you keep citing people who have selectively cherry-picked their own data, or who have simply made it up like Leuchter. Unwitting media? Israel? Don't be a fool.


Originally posted by kenochi
Obviously, I disagree with your points, but I am extremely bored of repeating myself and so will restrict myself to a brief response. There is no worthwhile evidence for gas chambers other than eyewitness testimony. That's a fact. And if you got yourself off the internet for a while, obtained and read the books I'm talking about, you would have to accept that, as others do.
...
And revisionism is actually growing in popularity, not fading as you suggest. As more rational people see the paucity of evidence for the story, they are rejecting it on the basis of reasoning and logic. The fact that this is happening, despite attempts by several governments to make revisionism a 'thought crime', a move which Hitler himself would be proud of, is evidence of the strength of its argument.


No, revisionism is not growing in popularity. People who are revisionists have done their best to hype up their claims, but are still being reviled. The David Irving Trial was a wonderful vindication that people like Irving cannot go around telling lies without the consequences of their actions catching up with them in a major way.
The Holocaust happened. Why do you find this so hard to accept?



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:22 PM
link   
"As the Zionist-controlled system of the "Western democracies" is woefully unable to counter the revisionists with arguments, it resorts to censorship and brute force in order to silence the dangerous heretics." Jürgen Graf

I cannot believe some of the posts and replies in this thread. A.T.S. motto is supposed to be Deny Ignorance. Maybe a footnote needs to be added which reads "except when the subject is the Holocaust".? Upsetting!

Good to see that there are members like tom goose, kenochi, subz and others who at least dare to think and respond.

Well, I´m done reading (for now), because I´m having a very hard time. See my previous posts where to find the online revisionist library. I have seriously read more than half of the books and articles available online, and browsed to more than a dozen publications. At a certain point it literally brought tears of frustration and anger to my eyes.. Really. So enough for now, I want my life back.

How can I possible even begin to post something which is this big and has volumes of data and research which is being kept from the general public, and for a very good reason I might add. The only way I see to even begin to start tackling is by looking for a publication which sums it all up in a manner that is not too technical nor emotional.

I have found such a publication in the same repository previously mentioned; it is a 60 page article written by Jürgen Graf while in exile in Teheran in 2001. If you are serious about learing what on earth drives revisionists, the governments that persecute them, and the why who and what´s surrounding this subject please bare with me. This is going to be a long post, which probably should go into a research section in a separate thread, but I leave that to the discretion of the moderators.

To answer most of the questions and arguments brought forward in this thread I will need to quote a considerable amount of text from Graf, I simply see no other or better way to do this. I am assigning each argument with a number between parenthesis like this: [x], so if you would like to comment you could reference that number to save text and time.

Spelling corrections and my comments are also marked with parenthesis like so: [ed].

About the topic at hand: There is a considerable amount of technical and logistical arguments brought up in the movie "One Third Of The Holocaust", especially with regards to the disposal of the bodies of the victims. To me this is one of the crucial points which made me think that the Holocaust as told by temporary historians simply cannot have happened as it is tought. I will however no longer quote the movie which started this thread in the first place, as I feel there is indeed much more relevant documentation to support a possible Holocaust conspiracy. What I will show you by quoting Graf and commenting is that:

o Revisionists do not equal Neo-Nazi´s
o Revisionists are persecuted in Europe
o Revisionists bring forward valid arguments which cannot (easily) be refuted




From: Holocaust Revisionism and Its Political Concequences by Jürgen Graf

Source document in PDF format

[1] Page 3
Before 1991, I did not know anything about revisionism. While I thought that the six million figure might be somewhat exaggerated, I never had the slightest doubts as to the reality of the Nazi extermination program and the homicidal gas chambers. I was dimly aware that there were some authors who questioned even the approximate truth of the official holocaust version, but I thought they were just a bunch of Neo-Nazis eager to whitewash Hitler, so I made no effort to find out what their[ed] arguments were. [Jürgen Graf is not a Neo-Nazi, but he is clearly against Zionism. I hope everyone can understand the difference.]

[2] Page 3-4
[the article] had appeared in the Soviet Communist Party's newspaper Pravda on February 2, 1945, one week after the liberation of the Auschwitz concentration camp by the Red Army. (Four years later [meaning original referenced year 1991], in Moscow, I got hold of the Russian original.) The author of that article, Soviet Jewish reporter Boris Polevoi, who had visited Auschwitz immediately after its liberation, wrote about an "assembly line killing installation where hundreds of people were killed simultaneously with electrical current". Polevoi also mentioned gas chambers in the eastern sector of the Auschwitz camp. Nowadays, nobody claims that the German made use of electric current to kill people, and according to the official Holocaust version, the Auschwitz gas chambers were at Birkenau, west of the main camp, and not in the eastern sector.

[3] Page 4
The book was later translated into French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Bulgarian, Arabic, and Swedish. Immediately after its publication, I lost my job in Therwil for alleged unethical behaviour. [I wanted to highlight this: he lost his job because he published a book on the Holocaust]

[4] Page 5-6
For example, numerous witnesses claimed that at Auschwitz it took 20 minutes to incinerate three corpses in a crematorium muffle. Even in modern crematoria, it takes about one hour to burn one corpse, and as we know from the documents, the same thing applied to the German wartime crematoria. As the witnesses could not possibly have invented the same absurdities independently of each other, it was obvious that they had either been instructed to lie (many of them testified before Polish, British and American kangaroo courts, which had been entrusted with the task to "prove" the existence of the homicidal gas chambers), or that one witness had simply parroted what he had heard from another one or read in a book. As virtually all of the eyewitnesses were former Jewish concentration camp inmates, they were keen on taking revenge upon the Germans who had deprived them of their liberty and gladly told all sort of wild atrocity tales [on the eyewitness accounts, he has a point in that certainly Jewish witnesses would want revenge for their persecution]



continued...



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:23 PM
link   



[5] Page 8
According to a recent decision of the German "Bundesverfassungsgericht" (Supreme court), anybody who posts revisionist material on an internet website in any country of the world can be arrested and sent to prison for five years as soon as he enters Germany. [does this go for quoting material as well? - shows persecution of revisionists]

[6] Page 9
Revisionism has radically changed my life. Although my existence has become perilous and precarious, it is now more interesting and more meaningful than ever before as I know that I am fighting against something fundamentally evil. [quoted because I feel the same, and disturbingly so. Read what he says about Iran (in 2001!)]

[7] Page 10 The official version of the Holocaust, fully quoted because this becomes important further on.
According to the orthodox historians, the National Socialist leadership, having decided to wipe out the Jewish race, set up six extermination camps where [six] million of Jews were gassed. All six killing factories were located in Poland (or in territories which had been Polish before the war and were annexed by Germany in 1939 before returning to Poland in 1945). Four of them (Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno) were pure extermination camps, and only a handful of Jews survived them. At Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor, the Jews were murdered in gas chambers, at Chelmno in gas vans. The remaining two extermination centres, Auschwitz and Majdanek, served both as killing factories and as labour camps. In these two camps, the Jews unfit for labour were gassed, while those able to work were at least temporarily spared. The bodies of the gassed Jews were burnt, partly in crematoria, partly in the open air, so that no mass graves were found after the war. As all gassing orders were only given orally, no documentary evidence corroborating the existence of homicidal gas chambers has ever been discovered.

The Holocaust historians claim that, in addition to the mass gassings, the Germans shot between one and two million Jews on the Eastern front. According to them, between five and six million Jews perished in the German sphere of influence. More than half of them were murdered in homicidal gas chambers (and, to a much lesser extent, in homicidal gas vans), a large part of them were shot in the occupied Soviet territories, and the remaining ones (some hundreds of thousands) perished from diseases, starvation and bad treatment in labour camps and ghettos.

This is the official version of the holocaust, as it is described in Raul Hilberg's standard work The Destruction of the European Jews. But as we shall see later, the first versions were very different from the story we are told today. [note: it is important to remember this line when you read the first eyewitness reports]

[8] Page 12
Nobody denies the persecution of the Jews during World War Two. This persecution was very real and very brutal. However, a small but increasingly influential group of scholars, who call themselves "revisionists" - their opponents prefer to call them "holocaust deniers" - claim that the Germans never planned to exterminate the Jewish people, that the killing factories, homicidal gas chambers and gas vans did not exist and that the figure of five to six million Jewish victims is an irresponsible exaggeration. Revisionists do not deny that many Jews were shot by the Germans in the occupied Soviet territories, but consider the figures pandered by the orthodox historians (one to two million shot Jews) to be heavily inflated. [definition of revisionist mindset]

[9] Page 13
In order to ascertain who is right, the orthodox historians or the revisionists, one must resolve the crucial question of the gas chambers. (When referring to "gas chambers", I always mean homicidal ones, not the delousing chambers which were found in all concentrations camps and were often called "gas chambers" in German wartime documents.) If the homicidal gas chambers did not exist, there was no holocaust, because there was no murder weapon, [answer to why concentrate on the gas chambers as murder weapon]

[10] While the revisionists cannot prove that no Jews were gassed during the Second World War, they are able to prove that the alleged mass slaughter in gas chambers as described by eye-witnesses cannot possible have taken place because it was technically impossible.

[11] They can also demonstrate that it would have been quite impossible to dispose of millions of human bodies in the so-called extermination camps. [this argument has convinced me, discussed later on]

[12] not even one case of homicidal gassing by the Germans during World War Two has ever been proved by a document and that not a single body of a gassed prisoner was found by the allied troops who liberated the German concentrations camps in 1944 and 1945. This is candidly admitted by the orthodox holocaust historians. [true, as most bodies examined turned out to be casualties of pectoral typhus and mal-nutrition. Google for Bergen-Belsen, victims, pits. Medical accounts are good enough for me]

[13] When the Swiss television commented upon the Baden trial against my editor Gerhard Foerster and myself, they showed pictures of dead concentration camp inmates found by American and British troops in the spring of 1945, insinuating that the revisionists were dismissing such photographs as forgeries. But no revisionist has ever claimed that these photographs were fakes. [I have not found a single revisionist document, book or article denying the validity of those pictures - shows revisionist persecution through propaganda]

[14] Page 14
According to the orthodox holocaust story, the gassings at Auschwitz, the last functioning "extermination camp", were stopped in late October or early November 1944, and there were no homicidal gas chambers in the western camps such as Dachau, Buchenwald, and Bergen-Belsen which the British and Americans liberated in spring 1945. [Please note that the official story confirms that there were no gas chambers in the above mentioned western camps]



continued...



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:25 PM
link   



[15] But the average TV spectator does not know this; he believes that the bodies shown on television are those of murdered Jews, and he gets very angry at the revisionists who seem to deny the undeniable. - So, the media "prove" gassings at Auschwitz and Treblinka by showing victims of typhus, dysentery and starvation at Dachau and Bergen-Belsen! [Shows media manipulation. I believed so too up to a few months ago.]

[16] The father of revisionism, the Frenchman Paul Rassinier, was a former inmate of two German concentration camps (Buchenwald and Dora). Rassinier, who was not Jewish, was a anti-Nazi resistance fighter. He was arrested in 1943 and tortured before being sent to the Buchenwald concentration camp. After the war, Rassinier read many blatantly untrue stories about Buchenwald. Former inmates claimed that there had been a homicidal gas chamber in that camp, which Rassinier knew to be a lie as he had been in Buchenwald himself. [establishes Rassinger as a non Neo-Nazi]

[17] (...) [Rassinger] branded the gas chamber and Jewish extermination story as "the most macabre lie of all times". Rassinier died in 1967.

[18] Page 15
Some revisionists have tried to avoid the accusation of "Neo-Nazism" by making strong anti-Nazi and anti-Hitler statements. It did not help them a bit, because everybody who challenges the gas chambers and the six million figure will automatically be branded as a "Neo-Nazi" and a "Hitlerite" by the media even if he condemns Hitler ten times a day. [shows persecution]

[19] If the revisionists were wrong, it would be amply sufficient to refute them publicly, for example in TV discussions. but such debates are not allowed (...) [shows repression. read the whole paragraph for more examples]

[20] Page 17
A particularly outrageous feature of anti-revisionist repression is that the defendants are never allowed to prove the validity of their arguments. A revisionist who sticks to his views in court usually faces a particularly severe punishment because of his "obstinacy" and "unwillingness to repent". [true, read The Rudolf Report the section where Germar explains his persecution and the Remer trail where he was asked to testify]

[21] Faurisson was not permitted to speak. However, Froehlich, a pest control specialist, was allowed to make a statement. He declared that homicidal gassings as described by former Auschwitz inmates were technically impossible. His statement ran as follows [complete argument repeated to show technical impossibility of eyewitness reports on the rapidity of deaths]

"The insecticide Zyklon B consists of hydrocyanic acid absorbed in a granulate carrier substance. The hydrocyanic acid is released through contact with the air. The boiling point of hydrocyanic acid is 25,7 degrees C. The higher the temperature, the faster the evaporation rate. The delousing chambers in which Zyklon B was used in National Socialist camps and elsewhere were heated up to 30 degrees or more, so that the hydrocyanic acid left the carrier granulate rapidly. On the other hand, much lower temperatures prevailed in the half-subterranean morgues of the crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau, where, according to eyewitness accounts, mass murders are supposed to have taken place using Zyklon B. Even if one assumes the rooms were warmed by the bodies of the hypothetical occupants, the temperature should not have exceeded 15 degrees even in the warm season. The hydrocyanic acid would therefore have taken many hours to evaporate. According to the eyewitness accounts, the victims died very rapidly. The eyewitnesses speak of time periods ranging from 'immediately' to 15 minutes. To kill the occupants of the gas chambers in such a short amount of time, the Germans would have had to use absurdly high quantities of Zyklon B, I assume from 40 to 50 kg per gassing procedure. The members of the Special Kommando who, according to the eyewitnesses, were responsible for removing the bodies from the chamber, would have collapsed at once, even if they had worn gas masks. Immensely great quantities of hydrocyanic acid vapour would have streamed into the open air though the open doors, contaminating the entire camp." [he makes an assumption which is later fully calculated by Germar Rudolf in The Rudolf Report]

[22] Page 20
If the official holocaust version were true, very few Jews would have survived in the German sphere of influence. Every Jew the German could get hold of would ave been sent to the death camps.

[23] a large part of European Jewry was not deported at all. In France, 75.721 out of approximately 300.000 Jews were deported, and most of them had foreign passports. (This figure, which was established by Jewish historian Serge Klarsfeld in his Memorial de la Deportation des Juifs de France, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, Brussels/New York 1982,

[24] If there had been an extermination policy, virtually no Jew would have survived the camps. But the memoirs of "holocaust survivors" fill whole libraries.

[25] Elie Wiesel, a Rumanian-born Jew who was deported together with his [relative?] in the spring of 1944, spent nine months in Auschwitz. When he got sick, the Germans sent him to the camp hospital. In January 1945, when the Red Army was approaching, the German let the sick prisoners choose whether they wanted to be evacuated west or stay behind to wait for their Russian liberators. Elie Wiesel and his father opted for going west with the Germans. All this can be read in Wiesel's book La Nuit (Editions de Minuit, Paris 1958).




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:26 PM
link   



[26] Page 21
[about the Frank family] Shortly afterwards, the Germans began evacuating Auschwitz because of the worsening military situation, and the prisoners were gradually transferred to the Western camps. Anne and her sister were sent to Bergen-Belsen where they succumbed to typhus shortly before the end of the war. Her mother died at Auschwitz in January 1945 (which means that she cannot possibly have been gassed because those who believe in the gassings unanimously claim they were stopped in October or November 1944). Her father survived; he moved to Switzerland after the war. The example of the Frank family illustrates that, while the Jews were indeed heavily persecuted and large numbers of them perished because of the bad conditions in the camps, there was no extermination policy because otherwise the whole family would have been gassed at Auschwitz on arrival. [Anne and her sister were children. According to official accounts children and elderly were gassed upon arrival at Auschwitz. This is an argument.]

[27] Page 22
"As an eleven year old boy held captive at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp during WW II, Moshe Peer was sent to the gas chamber at least six times. Each time he survived, watching with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he managed to survive. 'Maybe children resist better, I don't know', he said in an interview last week. (...) Peer and his sisters, WHO ALL SURVIVED, were cared or by two camp women. After the war, Peer was reunited with his father and his wife." (The Gazette, Montreal, 5 August 1993). [shows eyewitness exaggeration]

[28] Page 23
Elie Wiesel contended in his book La Nuit, which was published in 1958, that the Germans burned their victims alive.

[29] Another killing method often mentioned in Jewish wartime propaganda was murder by electrical current. For example, Dr. Stefan Szende, a Swedish-based Jew of Hungarian origin, described the alleged mass extermination at the Belzec camp as follows:

[30]
"The death factory comprises an area approximately seven kilometres in diameter. [!] (...) The trains filled with Jews entered the underground rooms of the execution factory. (...) The naked Jews were brought into gigantic halls. Several thousand people at one time could be filled into these halls. The floor was of metal and was submergible. The floors of these halls, with their thousands of Jews, sank into a water basin which lay beneath - but only far enough so that the people on the metal plate were not entirely under water. When all the Jews on the metal plate were in the water to over their hips, electrical current was sent through the water. After a few moments, all the Jews, thousands at once, were dead. Then the metal plate was raised out of the water. On it lay the corpses of the murdered victims. Another shock of electrical current was sent through, and the metal plate became a crematory oven, white hot, until all the bodies were burnt to ashes. [!!!] (...) Each individual train brought three to five thousand, sometimes more, Jews. There were days on which the lines to Belzec supplied twenty or more trains. Modern technology triumphed in the Nazi system. The problem of how to exterminate millions of people was solved." (Stefan Szende, Der letzte Jude aus Polen, Europa Verlag, Zurich-New York 1945, p. 290 ff.). [shows eyewitness exaggerations]

[31] "All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first, were driven into the death chambers. (...) After being filled to capacity, the chambers were hermetically closed, and steam was let in. In a few minutes all was over. (...) [steam was let in! shows eyewitness exaggeration]

[32] In addition to burning alive, electrical current and steam, numerous other killing methods were described by the "eyewitnesses": Suffocating by pumping the air out of the chambers; quicklime; drowning; blood poisoning; burying alive; assembly line shooting. [shows exaggeration by eyewitnesses]

[33] Page 24
All these stories have fallen into oblivion. Only the gas remains. [indicates coverup to get rid of some eyewitness stories to not discredit the Holocaust]

[34] British prosecutor Sir Stanley Hartcross claimed during the closing phase of the Nuremberg trial that the Germans had conducted murder "like some mass production in the gas chambers and the ovens of Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Majdanek and Oranienburg" (Nuremberg volume IMT XIX p. 483, translation of the German version). Today, no self-respecting historian contends that there were gas chambers at Dachau, Buchenwald, and Oranienburg, or that the German conducted murder in the ovens (everybody agrees on the fact that the crematoria served for the incineration of dead bodies, not of living people). In January 1946, the Czech physician Dr. Franz Blaha,
who had been interned in Dachau and practised his profession there, speaking under oath at the Nuremberg trial, declared that he had personally examined the corpses of gassed prisoners (Nuremberg volume IMT V p. 198, German version). Many "eye witnesses" confirmed the existence of gas chambers at Buchenwald, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen and other Western camps. However, in 1960, leading German holocaust historian Martin Broszat categorically stated that there had never been any homicidal gassings in the concentration camps of the "Old Reich" (to wit, of Germany in its 1939 borders), and that gassings had only occurred in the "extermination camps", which were on Polish soil (Die Zeit, 19 August 1960).Thus, Broszat declared null and void all eyewitness reports about gassings in the Western camps. [verifiable]

[35] Now, why should the eyewitness accounts about gassing at Auschwitz, Belzec and Treblinka be any more trustworthy that the ones about gassings in Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen and Dachau? Ever since the days of Rassinier, revisionists have been asking this simple and obvious question. [this is a valid argument]




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:27 PM
link   



[36] Page 26
In some of the concentration camps, especially Auschwitz and Majdanek, the mortality rate was staggeringly high. While many deaths were caused by insufficient food, bad clothing and harsh treatment, and while there were executions by shooting and hanging, diseases, especially the dreaded pectoral typhus which is carried by lice, were the main cause of the enormously high mortality. The most efficient weapon against lice was the insecticide Zyklon-B, but the quantities available were never sufficient. Far from being used to kill people, Zyklon-B was used to save them, and as Robert Faurisson aptly states, fewer prisoners would have died if the Germans had had more Zyklon-B. (The
holocaust historians do not deny that Zyklon-B was an insecticide used to eradicate lice and other vermin, but they claim it had a double function, serving also as a murder weapon for the killing of Jews at Auschwitz and Majdanek). In Auschwitz, the biggest camp, the typhus epidemic reached its climax between 7 and 11 September 1942 with a daily average of 375 deaths. In January 1943, the average death rate was down to 107 a day, but by March it had risen again to 298 (Jean-Claude Pressac, Les crematoires d'Auschwitz, p. 145). [undisputed]

[37] page 27
On December 28, 1942, concentration camp inspector Richard Gluecks wrote in a circular letter to all camp commandants: "The senior doctors of the camps must use all means at their disposal to achieve a massive reduction of the mortality figures in every camp. (...) More than ever, the doctors have to ensure that the prisoners are adequately fed, and together with the camp administration, they have to submit the necessary suggestions for improvement. (...) The Reichsfuehrer SS [Heinrich Himmler] has ordered the mortality rate to be reduced at all costs." (Nuremberg document NO-1523). As a result of this order, the mortality rate sank by almost 80% by August, 1943 (Nuremberg document PS-1469). [undisputed, this could be considered clear evidence against an extermination policy]

[38] The expression Endlösung der Judenfrage ("Final solution of the Jewish question") is also interpreted as a camouflage-term for extermination, although several documents explicitly state that this "final solution" meant the evacuation or emigration of all Jews from the German sphere of influence. But in 1993, Jean-Claude Pressac, who believes in the gas chamber story, conceded in Les Crematoires d'Auschwitz that the coded language was a myth, and in 1996, anti-revisionist French historian Jacques Baynac honestly admitted that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of homicidal gas chambers (Le Nouveau Quotidien, Lausanne/Switzerland, 2 and 3 September, 1996). [undisputed argument about the Final Solution]

[39] Page 28
In the early ninetieths, the Russians released the Sterbebücher (death books) from Auschwitz. In these documents, the camp administration had meticulously recorded 66.000 death cases which had occurred at Auschwitz between mid-1941 and late 1943. Each page contained the name, date and place of birth, nationality, religion as well as the date and cause of death of a deceased prisoner. (As the death books present many gaps, and as the ones from 1944 are missing, the documentation is incomplete). The exterminationists are terribly embarrassed by these death books, as they are unable to explain why the Germans, who are supposed to have gassed up to one million Jews at Auschwitz without caring to register them, took such great pains to document every case of natural death at the camp. [valid argument against extermination policy (no need to record deaths)]

[40] records kept at the Auschwitz museum show that 15.706 mostly Jewish prisoners received medical care at Monowitz (a sub-camp of Auschwitz) between July 1942 and June 1944. 766 of them died, the remaining ones were released from hospital (Panstwowe Muzeum w Oswiecimiu, Syg. D AuI-III-5/1, 5/2 5/3) [argument against extermination policy]

[41] When doing research in Moscow in April/May 2000, Mattogno and I found a German-language report written under the auspices of the Russians in early 1945, just after the liberation of Auschwitz, by four Jewish doctors (Lebovits, Bloch, Reich and Weil) who had practised their profession in the camp hospital. The report contains the names of more that a thousand almost exclusively Jewish patients whom the German had left behind before evacuating the camp. Among them were 97 boys and 83 girls between one and fifteen years. (Gosudarstvenny Archiv Rossiskoi Federatsii, Moscow, document 7021-108-23). They had been deported to Auschwitz with their parents in order to avoid the separation of families. If the holocaust story were true, all of them would have been murdered long before 1945. After all, they were unable to work. [argument against extermination policy]

[42] Page 34-35
Mattogno and Deana studied the following: 1) The maximum capacity of the Auschwitz crematoria. The first crematorium was put into operation in 1941 at the main camp. Because its capacity was insufficient to incinerate the large amount of corpses (tens of thousands of prisoners succumbed to the typhus epidemics), four big crematoria were planned in 1942. From March 1943, they were put into operation in Birkenau, west of Auschwitz I, the main camp. At no time did all five crematoria function simultaneously; because of technical problems, they constantly had to be overhauled which, of cause, greatly reduced their capacity. [verifiable and undisputed]

[43] 2) The coke deliveries to the crematoria. Except for 1944, these deliveries are documented almost completely, and as the amount of coke required for the cremation of a body is known, the maximum number of cremations may be calculated for any period. [calculable, verifiable and undisputed]

[44] 3) The fact that the fire-resistant refractory brick masonry in the crematoria ovens was never replaced which would have been necessary after 2000 - 3000 cremations in one muffle. [verifiable by modern day crematorium company expert sources]




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:30 PM
link   



[45] Having taken into consideration all these factors, Mattogno and Deana concluded that the crematoria ovens could not possibly have disposed of more than 162.000 bodies. Now, this squares very well with Mattogno's estimate of about 150.000 Auschwitz victims (because of the gaps in the documentation, no exact figure can be given). [leading up to argument for disposal of bodies]

[46] Of course, one has to consider the possibility of open air cremations. Such cremations certainly occurred in the second half of 1942 and in early 1943, when typhus wrought havoc at Auschwitz and the Birkenau crematoria were not yet operational. But the crucial period is the one from May to July 1944. At that time, massive deportations of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz were taking place. According to the holocaust historians, between 180.000 and 410.000 of them were gassed and burned at Birkenau between during this time. (The former figure is given by Raul Hilberg, Die Vernichtung der europaeischen Juden, Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, Frankfurt a.M. 1997, p.1300, the latter one by French-Jewish historian Georges Wellers, Le Monde Juif, October-December 1983, p. 153). Even the orthodox historians, who routinely exaggerate the capacity of the crematoria, agree that it would not have been possible to incinerate so many corpses in the crematoria, so they claim that most of them were burnt in big pits. [undisputed]

[47] But from December 1943, Auschwitz was repeatedly photographed by allied reconnaissance planes. Several of these photos fell into the period between May and July 1944. The most important one was made on 31 May. If we can trust the official figures of deported Hungarian Jews, 15.000 of them were brought to Auschwitz on that very day, and in the preceding days, the daily average had been 13.000. None of the events reported by Mueller and his fellow-eyewitnesses are visible in the photo: There are no lines of prisoners waiting before the crematoria, no gigantic blazing fires, no cremation pits, no smoke-blackened sky. This photo, together with other ones from the same period, can be found in John Ball's exceedingly important book Air photo evidence (Ball Resource Services, Delta/Canada 1992) [conclusively shows absence of burning pits in Auschwitz]

[48] Page 36
In the "pure extermination camps" Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor, there were no crematoria, and no homicidal use of Zyklon B is alleged. [undisputed]

[49] (...) Diesel exhaust gasses which were supposedly produced by the engines of wrecked Russian tanks (or, according to an alternative version, submarines). - In the fourth and last "pure extermination camp", Chelmno, homicidal gas vans equipped with Diesel engines were used according to the holocaust historians.

[50] In all four of the "pure extermination camps", the Germans allegedly buried the bodies, only to dig them out and burn them in the open air later.

[51] While it is not impossible to kill people with Diesel exhaust gasses, it is an extremely cumbersome and inefficient method, for the exhaust gasses are poorly suited as murder weapons due to their high oxygen and very low carbon monoxide content. A gasoline motor can easily produce exhaust with a carbon monoxide content of 7% or more, but a Diesel motor cannot even produce a carbon monoxide content of one percent. Ironically, the introduction of Diesel exhaust gases into a chamber packed with people would only have prolonged their death agony, since these gases contain an oxygen content of approximately 16% which is sufficient for survival. Instead of introducing the exhaust gas, the executioners could simply have allowed the victims in the overcrowded gas chamber to suffocate, as the available oxygen would have been breathed up before the carbon monoxide took effect. [proven several times in lab environments by amongst others Germar Rudolf. Science does not lie: the co2 ratio is 1 to seven for Diesel versus Gasoline engines]

[52] the father of the Diesel story was (...) Kurt Gerstein who reported 20 - 25 million gassing victims. At Belzec, Gerstein claimed to have seen 35 - 40 m high piles of shoes and clothes and 28 - 32 gas chamber inmates per square meter (Andre Chelain, Faut-il fusiller Henri Roques?, Polemiques, Paris 1986). [shows exaggeration by eye witness]

[53] Page 37
To burn 875.000 bodies in the open air would have requested at least 200 kg of wood per corpse, i.e. a total of 175.000 tons. This is equivalent to a forest 6,4 km long and 1 km wide. A deforested terrain of the corresponding size does not, and did not, exist in the vicinity of Treblinka, and the transport of 175.000 tons of wood to the camp would certainly have been noted in the records of the Germany railways if the wood had been brought from same place else. [shows lack of materials to cremate victims at Treblinka]

[54] The 875.000 bodies would have left 2900 tons of human ashes in addition to 1000 tons of wood ashes. These ashes would have contained millions of unburned pieces of bone, plus 20 to 30 million teeth. Had the Soviets and the Poles found but a fraction of these ashes, bones and teeth, they would immediately have summoned an international commission of experts to prove the depravity of their German enemies [calculations verifiable with any modern day crematorium]

[55] One and a half years after the Red Army had conquered the Treblinka area, the Polish authorities still claimed that the victims had been steamed to death (Nuremberg document PS-3311). [shows government support to exaggerated claims]




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:31 PM
link   



[56] In October 1999, young Australian engineer Richard Krege went to Treblinka with a ground radar instrument which, among other things, makes it possible to detect the presence of graves and is nowadays commonly used in archaeology as well as in geology. In August 2000, he made a second trip to Poland, this time accompanied by me. He continued his work at Treblinka and performed the same research at Belzec. In the holocaust literature, the places where the gigantic mass graves are supposed to have been (as we remember, the Germans allegedly buried their victims before digging them out again and burning them) are exactly marked, so there is no room for error. Kreges conclusion is formal: The huge mass graves never existed. At Belzec, he found signs of a small mass grave (not in the area designated by the holocaust historians), which is hardly surprising, as a certain number of prisoners must have died in the camp, and as there was no crematorium at that camp. Thus, the whole Belzec and Treblinka story collapses. [forensic evidence against mass graves at Treblinka and Belzec]

[57] Page 38
No less than eleven [Jews] declared under oath that they had personally seen Walus fiendishly torturing and murdering Jewish prisoners. Walus spent all his savings and run into debt to finance his defence. He finally obtained documents from Germany which proved that he had spent the entire war as an agricultural worker on a farm in Bavaria. The accusation broke down, and Walus was acquitted. (Mark Weber, Simon Wiesenthal: Bogus Nazi Hunter, in: Journal of Historical Review, Volume 9, Nr. 4, Winter 1989/1990). [shows eye witnesses lying]

[58] John Demjanjuk, an American automobile worker of Ukrainian origin, was extradited to Israel for alleged unspeakable atrocities at the Treblinka camp during the war (...). At the Demjanjuk trial, five [Jews] swore that they recognised in Demjanjuk "Ivan the terrible" who had cut off the breasts of Jewish women with his sword, split open the bellies of pregnant Jewesses with his sable and personally murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews with exhaust gas from the Diesel engine of a wrecked Russian tank. (...) (Hans Peter Rullmann, Der Fall Demjanjuk, Verlag fuer ganzheitliche Forschung, Vioel/Germany 1987.) But Demjanjuk had never been to Treblinka. He was finally acquitted and could return to the USA. [shows eye witnesses lying]

[59] Page 39
Vrba wrote a book about his time at the Auschwitz camp (I cannot forgive, Bantam publishers, Toronto 1964). On pages 10-13, he described a Himmler visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau in January 1943. According to him, a new crematorium, Krema II, was inaugurated in Birkenau on that day with the gassing and burning of 3000 Jews, and Himmler watched the agony of the unfortunate victims through a peephole in the gas chamber door. (Had Vrba studied the documents, he would have known that the first Birkenau crematorium was put into operation in March 1943, and that Himmler visited Auschwitz-Birkenau for the last time in July 1942. As the room designed as a gas chamber in Krema II was but 210 m2 big, filling it with 3000 victims would have meant that 14 people were standing on a square meter, [shows exaggeration which is technically impossibile]

[60]
Vrba: No, I didn't say I was present when he peeked through the door of the gas chamber, but I put together a story which I had heard several times from various people, who were present and told me all about it. There were many Sonderkommando and SS men with him. Christie: But in your book you write that you had seen everything, and you don't mention that you had heard the story from other people. Vrba: In this special case I told what I had heard from others. (Trial record of the first Zuendel trial in Toronto, 1985, p. 1244 ff.) [shows eye witness changing his testimony to reflect hearsay]

[61] A key witness is yet another Slovak Jew, Filip Mueller, whom Raul Hilberg quotes as a source no less than twenty times in his standard work The Destruction of the European Jews. In his nauseating best-seller (Sonderbehandlung, Verlag Steinhausen, Frankfurt a.M. 1979), Mueller described how he ate cake in a cyanide-saturated gas chamber (he would have died immediately), and how the special commando he belonged to used the boiling fat flowing down from the burning bodies in the "cremation pits" as additional fuel: the fat was collected by him and his fellow workers and poured over the bodies again to accelerate combustion! (p. 24/25; p. 207 ff) [shows exaggerations to be technically impossibile]

[62] Perhaps the most important pillar of the holocaust story is the confession of Rudolf Höss, the first of three commandants of the Auschwitz camp, which is quoted in virtually every history schoolbook of the Western world. But Höss had said things which could not possibly be true. For example, he confessed to gassing 2,5 million people, with a total death count of three million, until the end of November 1943. This is much more than twice the number of prisoners brought to Auschwitz during the whole of its existence, as even orthodox historians now concede. Höss also told his interrogators that he had visited Belzec and Treblinka in June 1941, although neither camp existed at that time, and mentioned an extermination camp "Wolzek" nobody has ever heard of since. (Nuremberg document PS-3868). [shows false confession under duress]

[63] In 1983, British writer Rupert Butler described in his book Legions of Death (Arrow Books, London, p. 235 ff.) how the Höss confession was obtained by a British team of torture specialists under the leadership of Jewish sergeant Bernard Clarke in March 1946: Höss, who had been arrested after hiding on a farm in Northern Germany, was savagely beaten and kept awake for three days before he gave in and signed the confession his tormentors had drafted for him - in the English language, which he did not understand! [shows torture of suspect to force confession]

[64] Page 41
at a trial in Aschaffenburg, a witness told the court that the SS used to hold bicycle races in the Birkenau gas chamber between the gassings [shows eye witness lying]




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:33 PM
link   



[65] Anyone in a "war crime trial" who disputed the official version of the "holocaust" found himself in a hopeless position. Nobody would believe him, and his "stubbornness" only got him a tougher sentence. This is how to confessions were obtained and evidence for the holocaust created! (Cf. Wilhelm Staeglich, Der Auschwitz Mythos, Grabert Verlag, Tuebingen 1979, and Manfred Koehler's article on the value of holocaust testimonies and confessions in Ernst Gauss, Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte, Grabert Verlag, Tuebingen 1994, English version: Dissecting the Holocaust, Theses and Dissertation Press, Capshaw/Alabama 2000.) [argument explaining German confessions]

[66] Page 42
Butz raised the question whether the Allies, the Vatican and the International Committee of the Red Cross could possible have been unaware for a long time of a mass extermination going on in the countries controlled by Germany. His answer left no room for any doubt: Such a thing was strictly impossible.[leading up to visibility and outside knowledge of exterminations]

[67] The two farmhouses said to have served as gas chambers before the four crematoria of Birkenau were put into operation were in the immediate vicinity of the camp; the crematoria were in the camp itself and only surrounded by barbed wire, so that thousands of prisoners would have witnesses the ongoing slaughter every day. (According to the legend, an SS-man climbed on the roof of the "gas chamber" - in reality, a morgue - and dropped Zyklon B pellets through four round openings in the roof into the chamber. [showed killings would have been clearly visible from outside the camp]

[68] Auschwitz was a kind archipelago with about forty sub-camps where prisoners were sent whenever they were needed for labour before returning to the main camp. As prisoners and free workers were working side by side, this system guaranteed a constant flow of information all over the large Auschwitz area. [shows information could be easily conveyed to sources outside the camp]

[69] Even at Birkenau, the alleged epicentre of the holocaust, civil workers were engaged in all kind of activities. No less than twelve companies took part in the construction of the crematoria (Pressac, Les crematoires d'Auschwitz, p. 56). [confirms visibility to outside world]

[70] Page 43
As we have seen earlier, prisoners were constantly transferred from Auschwitz to other camps. Between June and October 1944 alone, about 23.000 mostly female Jewish prisoners were sent from Auschwitz to Stutthof near Danzig (Archiwum Muzeum Stutthof, I-IIB-8, p. 1; Juergen Graf und Carlo Mattogno, Das Konzentrationslager Stutthof und seine Funktion in der nationalsozialistischen Judenpolitik, Castle Hill Publisher, Hastings 1999). Since the alleged killing of between 180.000 and 410.000 Hungarian Jews is said to have taken place between May [ed] and July of that year, most of the prisoners transferred to Stutthof would have been witnesses of this horrendous crime. [shows visibility]

[71] Many prisoners were released from Auschwitz. Carlo Mattogno and I have found documentary evidence for the release of about 360 mostly Polish prisoners who had been sentenced to 49 days of re-education by labour each for breaking their work contracts (Tsentr chranjenia istoriko-dokumentalnich Kollektsii, Moscow, 502-1-436). All of them were [ed] released in June and July 1944 (to wit, during the alleged extermination of the Hungarian Jews) which means that the total number of releases must have been many times higher. [shows argument against hiding extermination policy from public]

[72] As a matter of fact, the Allied governments did not act as if they knew anything about "extermination camps", neither at Auschwitz nor elsewhere. As late as in August 1943, the US Secretary of state, Cordell Hall, instructed the US ambassador in Moscow to delete any mention of the gas chambers from a joint Allied declaration on "German crimes in Poland", as there was no proof of their existence (Foreign Relations of the U.S., Diplomatic Papers, Washington 1963).

[73] After December 1943, Auschwitz was regularly photographed by Allied reconnaissance aircraft. Had the photographs revealed proof of a mass extermination, the only railway still connecting Auschwitz with Hungary would most certainly have been bombed and destroyed as soon as the deportation of the Hungarian Jews had started in spring 1944. But not only the allies did not stir a finger to save the Jews from their dire fate. The Vatican remained silent, and so did the International Red Cross. [shows argument against extermination policy]

[74] In September 1944, a Red Cross delegation was allowed to visit Auschwitz. In their subsequent report, the delegates stated that they had heard rumours about a gas chamber, but that the prisoners themselves had not confirmed these rumours. (Comite international de la Croix Rouge, L'Activite du CICR en faveur des civils detenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne, Geneva 1948, p. 92). [argument against extermination policy which still stands even though the Red Cross apologised for these statements]

[75] Page 50
Whoever is familiar with the official holocaust version knows that no Jews from Poland and Belgium are supposed to have been sent to the occupied Soviet territories. The Jews deported from the Polish ghettos are said to have been murdered in extermination camps, and the deported Belgian Jews were either sent to Auschwitz (were most of them are claimed to have been gassed) or to camps in the West. [leading up to argument what happened to non registered Jews in Auschwitz]

[76] even the official holocaust literature mentions the deportation of some tens of thousands of German and Czech Jews to Minsk (White Russia) and Riga (Latvia). The first deportation wave to Riga took place in December 1941. As Hilberg recounts in his standard work (Die Vernichtung der europaeischen Juden, p. 377), many of these Jews worked for the German armed forces as well as for private enterprises, but cripples, war invalids and old people over 70 were sent to Riga [contradicts Auschwitz as end station for all Jews sent there]




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 06:34 PM
link   



[77] At that time, the mass murder of the Jews had already started in the first extermination camp (Chelmno), if we believe the orthodox historians, so why should the Germans have cared to send unemployable Jews, who allegedly were all to be killed, to the occupied territories in the East rather than to Chelmno? [argument contradicts extermination policy]

[78] In April 1944, the French communist underground newspaper Notre Voix reported that the Red Army had liberated 8000 Paris Jews in Ukraine (A photocopy of the article can be found on page 86 of Boisdefeu's book La Controverse sur l'extermination des juifs par les allemands, volume 2, p. 86). [argument contradicts extermination of all French Jews sent to Auschwitz]

[79] (...) a German document kept in the archives of the Paris-based Jewish documentation centre states that in August and September 1942, Jewish transports containing all types of Jews, including those unable to work, would be sent into the Generalgouvernement, to wit [should read], occupied Poland (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-46). Auschwitz, where all transports of French Jews went during that period, was not in the Generalgouvernement, but west of it, in the part of Poland Germany had annexed in 1939. - A German officer, Ahnert, who had taken part in a conference on the "solution of the Jewish question" reported on 1 September, 1942, that stateless Jews from France would be sent to a camp to be built in Russia (Centre de documentation juive contemporaine, Paris, XXVI-59). [argument for Auschwitz being transient camp for some transports]



So far Graf. At times he snears angrily at the witnesses, calling them names which I find a pity and uncalled for, but that´s the way he feels and exactly how he wrote it. After going through a substantial amount of material I cannot blame him for his frustration, as I am experiencing this myself.

The Holocaust it seems is a story. A story full of holes and tecnical impossibilites. A story which cannot be researched in Europe upon penalty of prison, and loss of career and reputation. This seems like a gross injustice and I for one am more than upset about it.

What do I want to achieve? Nothing. Judge for yourself. I am a conspiracy theorist posting on a conspiracy forum. And I think the Holocaust is a conspiracy. Reasons for this are given both in this thread as well as the document by Graf as in many other predominantly anti-Zionist publications.

Hopefully my posts and time are not in vain and can we have a good and emotionless discussion about this, it is important enough if you think about the implications it has when this conspiracy does exist.

If history does not compute we must re-examine history and must be allowed to do so freely.

Thank you for using your brains.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 09:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by Truth4hire
"As the Zionist-controlled system of the "Western democracies" is woefully unable to counter the revisionists with arguments, it resorts to censorship and brute force in order to silence the dangerous heretics." Jürgen Graf

I cannot believe some of the posts and replies in this thread. A.T.S. motto is supposed to be Deny Ignorance. Maybe a footnote needs to be added which reads "except when the subject is the Holocaust".? Upsetting!



Ignorance is this thread. Ignorance is the video that you posted.


Originally posted by Truth4hire

I have found such a publication in the same repository previously mentioned; it is a 60 page article written by Jürgen Graf while in exile in Teheran in 2001. If you are serious about learing what on earth drives revisionists, the governments that persecute them, and the why who and what´s surrounding this subject please bare with me. This is going to be a long post, which probably should go into a research section in a separate thread, but I leave that to the discretion of the moderators.



Graf is a liar..





Originally posted by Truth4hire


About the topic at hand: There is a considerable amount of technical and logistical arguments brought up in the movie "One Third Of The Holocaust", especially with regards to the disposal of the bodies of the victims. To me this is one of the crucial points which made me think that the Holocaust as told by temporary historians simply cannot have happened as it is tought. I will however no longer quote the movie which started this thread in the first place, as I feel there is indeed much more relevant documentation to support a possible Holocaust conspiracy. What I will show you by quoting Graf and commenting is that:

o Revisionists do not equal Neo-Nazi´s
o Revisionists are persecuted in Europe
o Revisionists bring forward valid arguments which cannot (easily) be refuted



More lies.

Revisionists are in almost all cases, related to Neo-Nazi characters, agrupations and common thinkings.

Revisionists are persecuted in Europe because every word in they pseudo-investigations, is a twist of reality, a lie, mis-information. That is why.

Revisionists never bring arguments. They bring lies and miss-information.



Originally posted by Truth4hire


Fact is there was a swimming pool located inside the prisoner´s compound.

If you just look at the pool. Why o why have a pool in a death camp? It is there, watch the doc. We have been lied for over sixty years about Auschwitz I say. And if the current trend continues in Europe, I might go to jail for up to five years if I say so in public in the near future. Interesting, don´t you think?

[edit on 1-2-2007 by Truth4hire]




Totally wrong, and miss-informative, as usual:

fcit.usf.edu...

Originally it was a water reservoir...they added ladders later...and it was only for the use of the SS guards,fireman crew and selected inmates (that were not the jewish ones,remember that a lot of different detainees were in those camps):

www.hdot.org...

They argue that the presence of a swimming pool,with three diving boards,shows that the camp was really a rather benign place,and therefore could not have been a center of extermination.They ignore that the swimming pool was built as a water reservoir for the purpose of firefighting (there were no hydrants in the camp),that the diving boards were added later,and that the pool was only accessible to SS men and certain privileged Aryan prisoners employed as inmate-funcionaries in the camp.The presence of the swimming pool does not say anything about the conditions for Jewish inmates in Auschwitz,and does not challenge the existenc

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Orion437]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 09:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Truth4hire
What I will show you by quoting Graf and commenting is that:

o Revisionists do not equal Neo-Nazi´s

[Jürgen Graf is not a Neo-Nazi, but he is clearly against Zionism. I hope everyone can understand the difference.]


If your "Volks-Deutsche" mentor Jürgen Graf is not a neo Nazi, why would he be a poster at /forum/showthread.php/stormfront-radio-town-hall-whitaker-141878.html?p=1415659]Stormfront Radio forums


Reading the posts on the Stormfront forum is very informative.

David "Reinhard Heydrich" Duke is particularly gushing in his praise of Graf, who he describes as


my close friend


Senior Moderator Jamie Kelso is similarly enthusiastic over Graf, describing him as one of


the world's greatest revisionist historians


"Gaulieter" Kelso recommends Herr Graf's website in glowing terms


vho.org is such a marvelous site that it's easy to spend unlimited hours in there enjoying the kind of truthful reading that our controlled press now denies us.


Maybe he would prefer to read a less "controlled press" ?

HMMMM........ how about "Der Angriff" set up by Joseph Goebbels ?

Or maybe...... Julius Streicher's "Der Stürmer" ?

Why not try..... the NSDAP daily "Völkischer Beobachter" ?

Something for his children to read ?

How about Julius Streicher's delightful children's book "Der Giftpilz" ?

Oh! how silly of me, he obviously has his own media outlets.

Ready to re hash the same old crap, again and again and again, ad infenitum.

If Herr Graf lies down with dogs.....he risks catching fleas.

Anyway, it's time for me to continue "Mein Kampf" to cleanse the Aryan race.

For this I will require

ein bar of seife

ein handtuch

und a dusche

Hopefully after a good shower the stink of "revisionist" BS will be gone


regards

beagle

pip pip !!


[edit on 10-3-2007 by the smoking beagle]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:23 PM
link   
"Holocaust awareness is actually an official, propagandistic indoctrination, a churning out of slogans and a false view of the world, the real aim of which is not at all an understanding of the past, but a manipulation of the present." (Boas Evron, Israeli political writer)

"' The Holocaust' is an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust. Through its deployment one of the world's most formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record has cast itself a 'victim state' and the most successful ethnic group in the united States has likewise assumed victim status." (Norman G Finkelstein)

These guys aren't revisionists, Beagle, or neo-Nazis. in fact they're both Jewish. Are they talking BS too?



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by kenochi
the most successful ethnic group in the united States has likewise assumed victim status." (Norman G Finkelstein)


Here's Forbes top 25 Richest Americans. Not that many jews:

Special Report
The 400 Richest Americans
09.21.06, 10:00 AM ET

1 William Henry Gates III 53.0 50 Medina, WA Microsoft
2 Warren Edward Buffett 46.0 76 Omaha, NE Berkshire Hathaway
3 Sheldon Adelson 20.5 73 Las Vegas, NV casinos, hotels
4 Lawrence Joseph Ellison 19.5 62 Redwood City, CA Oracle
5 Paul Gardner Allen 16.0 53 Seattle, WA Microsoft, investments
6 Jim C Walton 15.7 58 Bentonville, AR Wal-Mart
7 Christy Walton & family 15.6 51 Jackson, WY Wal-Mart inheritance
7 S Robson Walton 15.6 62 Bentonville, AR Wal-Mart
9 Michael Dell 15.5 41 Austin, TX Dell
9 Alice L Walton 15.5 57 Fort Worth, TX Wal-Mart
11 Helen R Walton 15.3 86 Bentonville, AR Wal-Mart
12 Sergey Brin 14.1 33 Palo Alto, CA Google
13 Larry E Page 14.0 33 San Francisco, CA Google
14 Jack Crawford Taylor & family 13.9 84 St Louis, MO Enterprise Rent-A-Car
15 Steven Anthony Ballmer 13.6 50 Bellevue, WA Microsoft
16 Abigail Johnson 13.0 44 Boston, MA Fidelity
17 Barbara Cox Anthony 12.6 83 Honolulu, HI Cox Enterprises
17 Anne Cox Chambers 12.6 86 Atlanta, GA Cox Enterprises
19 Charles De Ganahl Koch 12.0 70 Wichita, KS oil, commodities
19 David Hamilton Koch 12.0 66 New York, NY oil, commodities
21 Forrest Edward Mars Jr 10.5 75 McLean, VA candy
21 Jacqueline Mars 10.5 67 Bedminster, NJ candy
21 John Franklyn Mars 10.5 70 Arlington, VA candy
24 Carl Icahn 9.7 70 New York, NY leveraged buyouts
25 John Werner Kluge 9.1 92 Palm Beach, FL Metromedia



new topics

top topics



 
23
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join