warped logic of Alien UFO believers

true

though i meant that as a general observation using his post as an example and why my first paragraph agreed with him then my second one kinda pointed out what i felt were the flaws in his argument.

but in an ideal world, my opinion is that line of reasoning would be adoped in all situations.

but thats only my opinion

UFO Alien beleives aren't always them. Sometimes they can be amazingly smart people, and some of the evidence they give is quiet convincing.

For me however, I don't beleive in Aliens near Earth or on it, but I DO beleive in UFOs and things like Area 51

[edit on 12-10-2006 by PisTonZOR]

Originally posted by fyodor
Well, it's no wonder so and so's (ME) being so skeptic - his logical (ME) mind is completely shut to anything & everything that people are telling him. He's basically finding the tiniest, most meaningless holes in your arguements, to which he points out, throws in your faces and blows out of proportion. His hopes are to "win" his case over by any means necessary.

I'm not out to win anything if anything your statement just shows you are the one seeing an enemy and a war to be fought where none exists. This thread was about some of the flawed reasoning that repeats time and again. I dont believe in aliens flying UFOs true, I could be wrong though, of course I think its unlikely I am but i'm kinda biased.

Originally posted by fyodor
Humans grow up being brainwashed by what they read in schoolbooks.... And that's particularly why scientists are generally skeptics; their minds are so tightly shut, because they're arrogant enough to think that if they haven't been taught it at school and/or self-discovered, that it ultimately can't exist. It's a bit like those scientists who once thought that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth. They were eventually proven wrong.

I agree a lot of the population is basicly trained to behave and think a certain way its not the reason most scientists are skeptics though the reason is just a lack of evidence.
I think you are missing the point that it's the scientists who proved the earth wasnt flat and the Earth revolved round the sun.
Kinda blows that whole arguement away I think.

Originally posted by fyodor
Science will NEVER unconditionally acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrial/extradimensional organisms, so long as they're under government scrutiny. And if they ever did show slight hints of approval, chaos would ensue; religious people (which make up approx. 85% of the total pop.) would be outraged, and great amounts of fear would rattle everyone up when they figure that a more intelligent & powerful alien race, who've mastered space flight, are capable of running # on earth.

Nobody should ever unconditionally believe anything or it's no more than a religion or wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Ectoterrestrial
While I agree with many of your points, your position that a government full of constantly changing people cannot keep a secret for even 5 years is simply false.

The programs where the secrets are kept for many years have life-long contracts with individuals in life-long service to the country. Such secrets have been kept for 5 years. There is a secret that is now at the roughly 4 year mark. 1 more year to meet your criteria.

You can doubt it all you like. That is convenient for the secret keepers.

Otherwise, I agree with most of your points. Its up to people to learn to be rational.

I guess it is possible they can keep secrets for quite a while 50 years is really pushing it though especially when were asked to believe our government sold us all out to the "greys" "reptilians" "vulcans" or whatever alien is more popular in mythos at the moment. I personally don't buy it.

Originally posted by Long Lance
the battle of LA should give you something to debunk.

see f-ex. www.abovetopsecret.com...

tell me which earthly power produced that object, which clearly absorbed the AAA searchlights' beams in 1941.

I looked for an alternative source on the battle of la (rense has a certain reputation)
I would say it classes as a UFO from what I found but by UFO I mean just that I dont believe it was an Alien spacecraft and the source makes no mention of Aliens just loose Balloons and a lot of smoke and confusion.

www.sfmuseum.net...

Originally posted by probedbygrays
For years here in Australia there was a leading physicist who said he was taken to the U.S by the military to reverse engineer a flying disk they had found. He painstakingly explains how they are built and what makes them fly. He was on TV a few times and I found his website a couple of months ago which has the most amazing diagrams of the propulsion systems and lots of information which was too advanced for my mind to understand. However I couldn't find the site again when I searched Google for hours. I only found it the first time because someone had linked to it on another site which deletes all its threads after a few days.

Anyway my point is that ufos are well understood and here in Australia many of us have watched this top physicist on TV over the years explaining that the U.S military have a disk and exactly how they work.

Of course there are different types out there too.

So why arent all the Australians driving about in flying disks if there was any truth in it they should be. If you are going to post that as fact you really do need something to back it up not even a name given or source cited otherwise as an arguement it is worthless.

I will post my account with a UFO.

I grew up in a modest neighborhood in Santiago, Chile. We live close to the mountains. One night in the 80's my mom, sister and I walk towards the little neigborhood market. All of our neighbors were out looking up in the sky, When we looked up we saw a strange round glowing light, shaped very round. What was odd about this light it was how it move, it move as something that I had never seen before...sort of like hovering through the near sky. I remember I was young and me and my sister became frightened.At this point after about 5 minutes the light dissapear. All of our neighbors describe the same thing I just describe. Some speculated that it was an alien aircraft some were just amaze and did not know what to think.


I ask my sister and my mom about this experience and they remember exactly as I've describe nothing else just the strange light....We will never know what it was ....as far as what my judgement says it was just that a UFO an unidentified flying object...it is what I saw....Now if I let my imagination go further than that ofcourse the possibilty of Aliens arises. But from my observation it was just a UFO.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by Tony Clifton]

I love the way Shamanator has ducked the hardcore cases.

Cash/Landrum
Early 90's Belgian UFO wave
Lonnie Zamora

I'm interested to see your interpretations Shamanator. Lets have them

You can argue all you like but the OP is spot on. We have no proof, not one
little bit that truly convinces us (well me anyway) that we are being visited
by an alien species. And like me the OP never actually said that we are alone
in the universe, which, judging by the angry rants, many posters seem to be heading
towards that argument.

No one really knows at the end of the day. The whole alien agenda is speculative at
best, mixed with conjecture, gossip and mostly hope and wishfull thinking.

Anything can be made by various factions of the govement, and probably does, and you and i are none the wiser and we never will be.

Also anything can be explained by people in the know, which alas none of us are privvy
to.And because of that, alien followers for some reason cant get their heads round
the fact that maybe just maybe the millitary made these machines, so they go with
the alien theory.

Hi folks,

I often read alot of what everyone has to say on this site and i love it!

It very important that we all contribute to the questions raised here on ATS, the positive the negative and the bizarre, but it is also important for those who claim to be skeptics to embrace what their role really is, to be a skeptic is not to demand answers from those with the opinions, because thhose opinions maybe misguided, and it is very easy to endup at the wrong place even if you followed the directons, also for anybody to use traditional science to explain any experience or event will find themselves frustrated, science is a process which needs to work on a theory followed up by a practise, innovation does not normal follow a sciencific approach beacuse it does not work, just as investigators should not follow a scientific approach because the subject they are dealing with will not conform.

When i discuss science i mena the common view of science, Einstein, Newton etc where skeptic really need to look is contemporary science, energy based sciences, at the end of the day science will shift the goal posts quicker than you have time to say hello, just because something new has been dscovered, that is the whole point of science it is not retrospective it looks ahead, and finds reasons for things, UFOs and aliens maybe never be linked, however from the research that i have done there is a strong link between an experience and UFO activity.




science

• noun 1 the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. 2 a systematically organized body of knowledge on any subject.

The diffination above uses the known PHYSICAL world as a guide to its study, but i ask the skeptics to disregard their own opinions of everything and be a true skeptic, a true skeptic doubts accepted opinions, therefore it is the skeptic that should be offering up the bizarre explainations of what is going on not the experiencers being probed (maybe again) for the answers

skeptic)

• noun 1 a person inclined to question or doubt accepted opinions

The definations where found on this website
www.askoxford.com...
its amazing that we have so much knowledge but sometimes do not use our abilities for the greater good, skeptics need more hugs! Because they will find the rats from the truths.

Best to all
Mcktj

PS i reread some of the RANTS, as it is the only way i can put it, about science, how can anyone claim that sciencists are closed minded? They are the one that tell you what is what generally so anything you know about anything came from someone else correct? just because a sciencist does not endorse aliens and UFOs does not make them bad people, mayne they are dealing with real life situations, last time i checked we have greater fish to fry!? By the way im not a sciencist i think that silly statements only show ignorance.

ignorance

• noun lack of knowledge or information.


[edit on 12-10-2006 by mcktj]

I find it amusing that this topic should cause such a rip. Pretty much everyone agrees that something is up there. To me its doesn't amtter what it is since it is so widespread and acknowledged that it deserves serious study no matter what the bottom line outcome is.

Originally posted by Cruizer
I find it amusing that this topic should cause such a rip. Pretty much everyone agrees that something is up there. To me its doesn't amtter what it is since it is so widespread and acknowledged that it deserves serious study no matter what the bottom line outcome is.

I agree with you cruizer, what i was trying to highlight is the importance of everyone working productively whether you believe that there are aliens or not,
oh yeah, isn't it NASA sciencists trying to find mircobial life on mars etc, lmao i just hate any sort of ignorance, its just not justifiable in todays day and age, the information revolution started in the 80's some people obviously prefer to use other body parts to state their views from

[edit on 12-10-2006 by mcktj]

Question for the "skeptical variety". What would it take to convince you guys there is something going on beyond our conventional understanding, be it alien operated vehicles, government technologies, etc. No matter what theory you subscribe to, Im sick of people swallowing the elite's "explanations". They will tell you ice particles, balloons, baboons, plastic bags, DUST(that pulsates) flying monkeys, for cryin out loud but they wont tell you the truth, because the truth is something bigger than even FLYING FREAKIN MONKEYS! They are hiding SOMETHING. And that something is BIG. Are there people out there really so neive to believe that the government isnt hiding anything, or worse that they are hiding things for our benefit. C'mon people WAKE UP, whatever is going on we NEED TO KNOW. Its not about curiousity any more, its possibly about the progression of mankind beyond our wildest imagination. If it in fact turns out that aliens are not behind this, FINE Ill accept that but tell me IN DETAIL WHAT it is that I saw hovering in broad daylight this morning ( i started a thread about it here www.abovetopsecret.com... ) Tell me what it is that emitts a glow similar to the sun and hovers and vibrates silently. What is it that dissapears after hovering and another one appears near it and repeats this process. Please tell me, Im not crazy, I dont need my eyes checked, Ill tell you what though. I oserved people..... 100's around me, in there cars going to work, the children walking to school, the jogger, the lady walking her dog, NOT ONE WAS LOOKING UP, NOT ONE HUMAN BEING AROUND ME WAS AWARE!

Skeptics: keep your eyes on the skys, you will one day become aware, I promise.

Originally posted by Beyonddeath
Question for the "skeptical variety". What would it take to convince you guys there is something going on beyond our conventional understanding

It would require that something happens which is much easier explained by "aliens did it" than by the other, more boring (and FAR more likely) mundane explanations. So far this has not happened. A plastic bag is just a plastic bag. A shimmering reflection of the sun through a window is just the sun.

The difference between believers and skeptics like me is that for the believer, once you've seen enough plastic bags, balloons, and shimmers, you start to think some of them are suspicious. Conveniently, they happen to be suspicious in a way that points toward them being aliens (which should not surprise you because you happen to be highly into this topic and not into unicorns or something else). The skeptic still just sees plastic bags. If an actual alien ship shows up, we'll see THAT.

We'd both see it, I'd imagine.

Though one thing to remember is that even if they do exist. Does it matter?

Kind of like a person who sees ghosts, they are just some flunky after images and don't realy do much of anything. "sure I see them but its like they are not even real" so they would say.

Originally posted by neformore
I love the way Shamanator has ducked the hardcore cases.

Cash/Landrum
Early 90's Belgian UFO wave
Lonnie Zamora

I'm interested to see your interpretations Shamanator. Lets have them

I don't think so even if I looked at those cases and gave a realistic answer for them I have the feeling you would start throwing more cases also it's irrelevent to the thread.

Originally posted by Beyonddeath
Question for the "skeptical variety". What would it take to convince you guys there is something going on beyond our conventional understanding, be it alien operated vehicles, government technologies, etc.

The answers for this is very simple just real evidence not blurry pictures or someones claims. By evidence I guess I mean something we can see touch and test. Something physical and real.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Shamanator]

Originally posted by Shamanator

Originally posted by neformore
I love the way Shamanator has ducked the hardcore cases.

Cash/Landrum
Early 90's Belgian UFO wave
Lonnie Zamora

I'm interested to see your interpretations Shamanator. Lets have them

I don't think so even if I looked at those cases and gave a realistic answer for them I have the feeling you would start throwing more cases also it's irrelevent to the thread.

Originally posted by Beyonddeath
Question for the "skeptical variety". What would it take to convince you guys there is something going on beyond our conventional understanding, be it alien operated vehicles, government technologies, etc.

The answers for this is very simple just real evidence not blurry pictures or someones claims. By evidence I guess I mean something we can see touch and test. Something physical and real.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by Shamanator]

surely you are familiar with the contraversy around the sts mission. What ar those things caught on camera..debris?? Why Nasa nervous flip-floping answers??? Its logic and a bit of psychology, they are hiding something

Every case is different. To dismiss ALL of them in all the history of the world by associating them with ice crystals off the shuttle is simply the type of tactic "they" have been foisting off on everyone for years. If one is confirmed as known terresterial in origin or a hoaxer caught red handed then it is impetus for detractors to pursue that logic. If one is a known or hoax therefore they all must be.

That form of deductive reasoning is simply not logical.

Originally posted by Shamanator

I don't think so even if I looked at those cases and gave a realistic answer for them I have the feeling you would start throwing more cases also it's irrelevent to the thread.

Its not irrelevant at all. Those three cases present a bucket load of evidence, which is why I suggest you take a look at them

Skeptics are the same as believers, but they don't let loose of the way the world has been shown to them at there early age. It's a mental barrier, many can't think wider then "Is this photo real?" and other simular stuff. You have to look at things in a much wider perspective before you can take the next step

It's important that everyone take UFOs and Aliens seriously, not a laughing matter. The Disclosure Project was held in Washington DC in May 9, 2001. There was cameras from all news stations there filming, the life feed was jammed but "???" according to people that was at the press meeting. You HAVE to take it seriously.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by InSaneTK]

I think people jump to the conculsion for obvious reasons. They just want to be believed, they have a cult they are involved in, or a group-with a somewhat cult theme to it they need with similar beliefs. There are examples of this, and some just need to believe it, because all faith is gone. In just mostly everything.

Originally posted by usaforever
I think people jump to the conculsion for obvious reasons. They just want to be believed, they have a cult they are involved in, or a group-with a somewhat cult theme to it they need with similar beliefs. There are examples of this, and some just need to believe it, because all faith is gone. In just mostly everything.

This goes for both skeptic and believers. Many jump to conclusions without proof or questioning. Like the way your teached how the world works, who to trust, what to believe (believe

Originally posted by InSaneTK

Originally posted by usaforever
I think people jump to the conculsion for obvious reasons. They just want to be believed, they have a cult they are involved in, or a group-with a somewhat cult theme to it they need with similar beliefs. There are examples of this, and some just need to believe it, because all faith is gone. In just mostly everything.

This goes for both skeptic and believers. Many jump to conclusions without proof or questioning. Like the way your teached how the world works, who to trust, what to believe (believe