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warped logic of Alien UFO believers

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posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:38 PM
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Evidence>




posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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On the contrary, in my opinion, skeptics are a great help to UFOlogy.
SKEPTICS help to separate the wheat from the chaff, and help all to dismiss cases that aren't worthy of further study.

DEBUNKERS on the other hand, are the ones who earn the ire of UFOlogists. The difference is simple. The Debunker is basically the exact opposite of the wack jobs that believe EVERYTHING, but instead, the Debunker disbelieves EVERYTHING regardless of the evidence. The Debunker ignores logic, ignores evidence, and simply tries to push forward convincing you it isn't what you think it is, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Healthy skepticism is a useful tool in any kind of investigation, but close-minded disbelief without looking at the evidence, that's debunking.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 04:08 PM
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which is why i proclaim myself an 'open minded skeptic'.

show me a picture of a UFO and first ill ask if its a weather balloon etc. when all other possibilities are exhausted ill admit that hell, it may just be an alien craft.

and i know thats the gist of what you are saying but the term "skeptic" is so often misused as to have a negative connotation from the believers, at least the ones who believe like the pope believes...

other than that i agree 100%



ima proud skeptic



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 04:21 PM
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Hit and run debunking with no intention of engaging in conversation, discussing cases or looking at possible alternatives.

The OP is as fanatical in his views against the subject as those he seeks to condemn for researching it.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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Shamanator - Well put. You posted a reasonable list. But of course, no matter how well it is written you will step on the dreams of the faithful, believers and overall zealotry that can permeates the discussion process.

For many UFO/Aliens are not about proving anything. It is simply believing. I've seen that written in many ways time and again. At that extreme, it is close to impossibe to carry on a coherent objective conversation. Simply put, making the points you made will mark you a blasphemer.

With that, I've seen a maturation process on this forum. Objectivety over time will win out. It's not hard for anyone to see the subject matter is rife with charismatic chareletans and individuals looking to fake connections, images, videos to undermine whats left of the phenomenon.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 04:57 PM
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Gazrok,

Just wondering if you could tell me if this video was discussed on ATS before?It seems like 'smoking gun' material to me on the subject.
I was blown away by it the other night when i stumbled it across it on youtube.
I know its a couple of years old as at the end they talk about contacting
'president clinton'. I was wondering how far this group went and why, with this type of testimony available, we are having discussions about ufos at all?
www.youtube.com...

This is the related website:
www.disclosureproject.org...

Love to hear your thoughts or anyone elses for that matter,
Thank you.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by nullster
Shamanator - Well put. You posted a reasonable list. But of course, no matter what you or how well it is written you will step on the dreams of the faithful, believers and overall zealotry that can permeates the discussion process.

For many UFO's is not about proving anything. It is simply believing. I've seen that written in many ways time and again. At that extrme it is close to impossibe to carry on a coherent objective conversation. Simply put, making the points you made will mark you a blasphemer.

With that, I've seen a maturation process on this forum. Objectivety over time will win out. It's not hard for anyone to see the subject matter is rife with charismatic chareletans and individuals looking to fake connections, images, videos to undermine whats left of the phenomenon.



Frankly I find alot of your posts arrogant and insulting. There are a lot of intelligent people on this board who don't need to believe or think every light in the sky is an alien spacecraft. I think I speak for a lot of people in saying that 95% of all UFO cases can be discarded with regards to the ET phenomenon.

There are a handful of cases that I've seen or read about that could possibly be otherwordly in origin. Those are the ones that keep a lot of believers thinking about. Of course there is no direct proof- otherwise we wouldn't be arguing about whether they exist or not. In dealing with a civilization possibly millions of years a. of us- we'd be like cavemen trying to decipher the human genome.

So some of you need to stop acting like we are all a bunch of drunk trailer trash looking looking at a streetlight and thinking its the ship from Independence Day. Because there are a lof of people smarter than you who think we are possibly being visited from extra-terrestrials.


[edit on 10-10-2006 by bruise]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by nullster
Shamanator - Well put. You posted a reasonable list. But of course, no matter what you or how well it is written you will step on the dreams of the faithful, believers and overall zealotry that can permeates the discussion process.


Ummm... a "reasonable" list?

It's full of illogical reasoning & flaws, dude. Admit it.

Take number 6 for instance: "believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even 5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation offered as a cover up."

If the government were to disclose the info., religious folks, which make up for approx. 85% of the total pop., would be outraged. Zealots would literally commit suicide when they figure they'd been decieved by biblical texts. And great amounts of fear would rattle everyone up when they figure that a more intelligent & powerful alien race, who've mastered space flight, are capable of running sh*t on earth.

And on May 9, 2001, over 400 government, MILITARY, and scientific officials came forth to give their personal alien/UFO testimony in a historic national press club conference conducted by Steven M. Greer, in what was known as the "Disclosure Project." Again, many TOP-RANKING MILITARY officials shared the info. they knew, and ALL told of how the government classified info. relating to UFOs/Aliens; stating that said info. posed a threat to national security.



[edit on 10-10-2006 by fyodor]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 06:00 PM
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bruise - I don't speak for no one but myself. I am not arrogant enough to write that I speak for or represent 50% let alone 90%+ of the members on this board.
I understand the faithful can be sensitive and thats what I tried to explain in my post. You shouldn't be insulted. My views on some actions of those of the UFO faith are my own and I stated them as such.

fyodor - Government is a large operation as stated in his point especially its interaction with the various military agenies. Given accounts of the number of military personnel involved in numerous "so called recoveries over 60 years, the only ones that have come forward haven't stood up to scrutiny. The likes of Corso do not stand up under scrutiny. Taking the hard work of individual people and their employers and applying their works to aliens is just shameful.

People need to understand that individuals in the US government and world governments are not Mindless Drones. They are human beings like you and I. They are driven by the same motivations and faults as anyone else. How many people actually know government employees or Vets. Are they drones?

In over 60 years it is highly improbable that not one of these souls would produce physical tangible evidence.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
These people all have their own agendas maybe its fame maybe its money maybe their just desperate to try and make their beliefs taken more seriously. a lot of people make a lot of wild claims It's Attention seeking at best.




Agendas huh? Is its possible that others successfully keeping you thinking EXACTLY what they want you thinking is part of there AGENDA? nuff said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trimmed big quote

[edit on 12-10-2006 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 06:20 PM
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Your wrong about the Government not being able to keep secrets for more than 5 years. Wish people would just do some simple googling before posting ridiculous statements.

Craft such as the U2, SR71, F117, B2 were flying for about 10 years approx, slighty more or less before being disclosed to the public. Who do you think it is who builds these aircraft. There built in factories by hundreds of workers who nodoubt have families and also many friends and there all sworn to secrecy. Who knows how long they could of remained secret if the Airforce hadn't decided to disclose there existence to the public. So secrets can be kept and thats a fact...........

I guarentee it, if a UFO crashed from another civilization it would be classified higher than the nuclear bomb. Every government on this Earth would kill to get there hands on Alien technology that is capable of travelling great distances and probably faster than light and even time travel. It would also take scientists many decades just to work out how the thing works so that it can be back engineered and the technologies incorporated into our own tech.......

news.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator

4: Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as
wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in
the latest movie.
[edit on 10-10-2006 by kinglizard]


I would think that when they say intergalactic travel is being done by wormholes, it WOULD be regarding current science. Many scientists now believe that wormholes or something similar exist. Before those times, they had fewer explanations for what could of been done to here, resorting to the "faster than lightspeed" proposition. So I don't really think that is "disregarding" current science.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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nullster speaking to fyodor

fyodor - Government is a large operation as stated in his point especially its interaction with the various military agenies. Given accounts of the number of military personnel involved in numerous "so called recoveries over 60 years, the only ones that have come forward haven't stood up to scrutiny. The likes of Corso do not stand up under scrutiny. Taking the hard work of individual people and their employers and applying their works to aliens is just shameful.

People need to understand that individuals in the US government and world governments are not Mindless Drones. They are human beings like you and I. They are driven by the same motivations and faults as anyone else. How many people actually know government employees or Vets. Are they drones?

In over 60 years it is highly improbable that not one of these souls would produce physical tangible evidence.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by nullster]


lol, i'm sorry....but how many ex government officials or people who no longer work for the government who've worked with nuclear material have been able to smuggle it out of the facilities they are kept in? i'd have to say none that i know of. do you really think it'd be any easier to get out non-terrestrial material?
also, all those who work with such highly classified things have to sign certain agreements as i'm sure you're aware. and i'd imagine those agreements have certain punishments that can be enacted should they be breached. some times those punishments are just too great for people to even think about disobeying them. why do you think it is that many of those who were former military don't come out about what they've seen untill they're lives are almost over? because by then the punishments aren't all that scarey.



[edit on 10-10-2006 by optimus primal]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I'm afraid the paintings you speak of are well known and debunked already not that it's stops them being constantly used as evidence. This site puts them in context with their real meanings sprezzatura.it...






This so-called debunking of paintings you speak of is EXTREMELY subjective. If I was a religious man during this time, and I saw acraft with glowing lights I may too paint them as angels..... data placing
, you understand? But there are other paintings/artifacts wich are questionable to say the least, yet I am still willing to accept another explantion, unlike some.

regards
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
trimmed BIG quote

[edit on 12-10-2006 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:41 PM
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Shamanator
6: Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even 5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation offered as a cover up.


Not true. The UFO matter has been given a security level higher than that of the Manhattan Project. As such here is a quote of just how secure that project was:



Secrecy in the Manhattan Project was so complete that many people working for the organization did not know what they were working on until they heard about the bombing of Hiroshima on the radio.


The point was to obscure the matter through compartmentilization such that noone really knows what the guy in the next office is doing. It's on a need to know basis for which many have no idea. Further a lot of "believers" have been silenced, some permanently. Many who have more information have been threatened with death, or death of family members, loved ones, etc. I would think that option would give people a lot to think about before they reveal all.

src: www.atomicarchive.com...

There is evidence right before your eyes. Check out of some of the FBI's UFO files that have been partly declassified. You'll easily note how a lot of documents are masked (black bars) in some case page after page. If's there's nothing to hide and its declassified why the hidden text?

src: foia.fbi.gov...

Physical proof is obviously the holy grail. I personally think there's is physical proof but it has been surreptitiously hidden by the govt. Revealing the presence of extra-terrestrials would induce mass chaos economically, socially to name a few.

brill

[edit on 10-10-2006 by brill]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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The site doesn't dismiss the saucer object too well, which is in better resolution then most photographs of proported UFO's (which says something about the quaility of art in the renisance or the blurryness of certain photographs)

"But this is not the only peculiarity of the painting: for example, to the upper left we see the Nativity Star with three other small stars, or perhaps flames.A very similar detail is present in the Madonna of the Book (1480) by Sandro Botticelli"

So something else is wierd in the picture like a sky on fire, that somehow makes everything ok. 'look the saucer is ok because the sky is on fire'.

As to the symbolisum, what would a flying saucer symbolise? The angels and seraphim ride it, minotoring everyone. Somebody notices it along with his dog. So people are aware of things of the sort flying around in the sky.


A lumunous cloud, hu for a cloud it seems somewhat symetric shape. Dark, metal yet surrounded by rays of light. And on looking at the other pictures compared with lumnous clouds and other stuff, you can see the clouds look.... actualy like clouds, and have angles on them.

Considering the skill of renisance artist, I doubt they would make a mistake, in drawing something (throwing a random blob of color), they draw everything to look like it is, everything is intentional. intended to be viewed far away, as is.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:20 PM
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edit to add the following preface:

I don't understand why people are attacking Shamanator. I disagree with some of his reasoning, but I don't need to attack him to have a discussion. He hasn't mentioned anything that doesn't occur in the ufo community, it doesn't all occur in every instance, but very often the sloppy reasoning that he is taking issue with below does occur, such as, in this thread in many of the overly defensive responses to his post, for example.



Originally posted by Shamanator
1: Trying to prove a Alien UFOs by a process of elimination using the same faulty reasoning I could claim all UFOs must be Dragons.

I agree, its often said that 'they can't show that its a regular plane, and we've eliminated other normal explanations, therefore its a UFO' isn't good reasoning.


Believing that a lot of unconvincing cases are as good evidence as 1 airtight case. They are not.

However, if the phenomenon is real, there should be many instances where its suggestive, but not conclusive, that a UFO was involved. Not convincing, but it is, to an extent, consistent with what would be expected.


Trying to make unbelievers disprove visiting Aliens don't exist.

I think you have one too many negatives there no?

The burden of proof should be on whoever is making the far out claims.

Indeed. But, on the other hand, it would be a far out claim to say that there is only one planet with intelligent life in the universe. Some reseachers (astrophysicists, not UFO-ologists) have calculated that even if there is only a small number of civilizations out there, and they don't have faster than light travel, there still should be a certain amount of space traffic and visitors to the earth.


Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in the latest movie.

I agree. We know that there are many unknowns in science, and that our understanding of phsyics and the universe is incredibly small, BUT, while that means that there will be lots of seemingly immpossible things, we can't rationally speculate on what those 'immpossible' things are, let alone cite them as explanations for anything.


5: Extremely biased towards any Alien possibility

I don't think that that is a flaw in logic nor necessarily all that bad of a thing. Lots of scientists, for example, specialize in a particular field, in fact, its often cited as a problem in science that so many researchers are so minutely specialized and ignorant as to what is going on in related fields, let alone vastly different ones. And yet, specialization produces spectacular results. So I don't think that the few people that are really interested in these issues shouldn't be looking specifically at the alien aspects.


and directing research only in that direction ignoring any evidence to the contrary as if it doesn't even exist.

Ignoring contradictory evidence is foolish.

Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even 5 years I seriously doubt it.

Operation Northwoods was kept under wraps for decades. Also, the most recent government explanation for what happened at roswell was that it was a test of something like 'crash dummies' for research. Lets pretend that that is the truth. You've just had dozens of individuals inolved in a massive cover-up, under long and great pressure from the public to divulge what was going on. And all that for the sake of suposedly protecting 'crash dummies', iow, something insignificant.
IF there are advaned alien species with near magical technology, and groups in the government know, there'd be a heck of a lot more motivation, even completely altruistic motives, to keep it quiet.
So I think that its logically flawed to say that a big secret can't be kept, or that a conspiracy can't occur if it involves lots of people over a long period of time.


Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation offered as a cover up.

This is merely being skeptical, not a logical flaw.


Connecting UFOs with psychics, channellers and other unscientific occult practises. If you want UFOs taken seriously why make it even more wacky it doesn't help and I don't believe you.

Not all people researching and trying to research UFOs and aliens are positing that there are wacky paranormal things going on. Also, what does that matter, it doesn't actually affect their evidence or arguement. A person can offer up a perfectly reasonable and logical explanation for a phenomenon, and also say that there are all sorts of other wacky things attached to it, and still be right about the original phenomenon.


Name calling and ridiculing seems common to anyone who had a different view I don't really mind this but it isn't exactly proving their case to me.

I have seen this happen far far too many times on all sides of the arguement. People that don't accept some of the outlandish, unreasonable, and silly arguements are said to be 'close minded' and the like. And vice versa. It doesn't make sense, if a person isn't convinced, then it means they are being unreasonable or that the arguement isn't convincing. Since we can't exercise mind control on people we are talking to, we can either give up, or make our arguements more convincing (and of course that goes for both sides).






UFO is exactly what it claims to be Unidentified flying object I fail to see any connection to Alien spacecraft which is the first jump of logic to many of you.

Moderately reasonable people that are open the prospect of there being aliens visiting earth will take the UFO reports, reject the ones that show no unusual behaviour for known human technology, and focus on the ones that show, or at least seem to show, unusual technological characteristics, such as right angle changes in direction, invisibility on radar, etc.


I think if I've learned anything it is to not take UFO reports very seriously when some people see every light in the sky as Aliens it makes all reports less convincing as a whole.

A quick perusal can usually show if there is anything weird going on, and if the person reporting a phenomenon is at least moderately reasonable.


I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here.

We really have to think though, if there are civilizations that have the ability to send ships out into space, eventually, even without near light or faster than light travel, they will be able to visit many many planets. Sol is a second generation star, that means that its made up of the exploded debris of other stars that was scattered out into the universe and slowly recollected into a solar system and gave birth to our earth and the other planets. Its entirely possible that some of the first generation stars were part of a system like the solar system. How far would space-ships from those planets have been able to travel over the eons? They'd've been able to reach us. If there were many of them infact, there could've been many times that alien ships flitted past earth. This is a perfectly reasonable line of thinking. It isn't so much to suggest that something like that has happened. If it did, it would be in one of those UFO reports, it would be, if sighted, a report of an inexplicable unidentified flying object. Just think about that, it really could be out there.



If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.

That is illogical. We can't know that there isn't, nor that there will never be. Its even probable that, if there hasn't yet been, that there will one day be, such an event.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Nygdan]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by selfless
Shamanator i suggest you watch this video.

video.google.com...

It's a very good video with very unique footage i am sure you would appreciate it.


Please note that i am not insulting you in any way by giving you this video link, it's just a very good video for anyone to watch. regardless of where you stand.

Edited: it gets very interesting at arounf 25 mins in when they start to show the thousands of ufo's in the sky all at once and clear as day.

it does not look like a fake video...

[edit on 10-10-2006 by selfless]



WHY would they have dogfights with fire balloons, please explain.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Sophismata

Originally posted by fyodor
A "2-3" mile dust particle? If you actually DID see the movie, you'd have realized that the UFOs were travelling BEHIND the teather


I hestitate to respond to you as you appear to be abusive, but your claims here are not substantiated. The only way you'd be able to tell how big something is would be by having another camera for a stereoscopic view. If I hold my thumb out at night and close one eye, I can cover the moon. Does that mean my thumb is as big as the moon?

As for being behind the tether - there is no evidence of that. It is quite common for out-of-focus blurs of close objects to to appear to be behind a much brighter, CCD-saturating object in the distance (such as the tether). So, while I see notched halos from out-of-focus dust, you see alien spacecraft that are miles in diameter and just happen to be oriented flat with respect to the camera location. I wonder which is more likely..



Great job debunking, sir, now please explain the pulsing, and remember size is irrelevant for we may be dealing with something we dont understand. What would it take for you people to open your eyes and minds and actually admit we are dealing with some extraordinary here(numerous STS missions)... Im not asking you to admit its little green men operating space craft. Hell, I wont admit its "alien craft" but I KNOW its something other than the mundane explanations yuo debunkers come up with



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by fyodor
By god, are those dust particles sneaky. I mean, they all appear to have notches etched out near their rims, they all have holes carved out in their centers, and they all share a mysterious "pulsing" property when visible to the naked eye. And not to mention, they tend to like making random appearances within our atmosphere from time to time, in several different countries.

Those dust particles must have minds of their own!

*sigh*

Deductive reasoning, pattern recognition & common sense. Marvelous wonders may succumb if all three are used efficiently.


[edit on 10-10-2006 by fyodor]



Perhaps we should just refer to them as dust particles from now on. It may be easier for them to accept that imtelligent life is operating dust particles
Loved this post, I havnt seen half of the footage on dust particles that you have presented

CHEERS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trimmed large quote



[edit on 12-10-2006 by masqua]



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