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warped logic of Alien UFO believers

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posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 07:26 AM
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I have been observing a lot of the arguments used by the usual UFO fan boys on the boards here and have noticed the following arguments used in every case.

1: Trying to prove a Alien UFOs by a process of elimination using the same faulty reasoning I could
claim all UFOs must be Dragons.

2: Believing that a lot of unconvincing cases are as good evidence as 1 airtight case. They are not.

3: Trying to make unbelievers disprove visiting Aliens don't exist. There is no way to prove anything
doesn't exist if I was to claim Invisible Dragons exist no one can disprove me. The burden of
proof should be on whoever is making the far out claims.

4: Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as
wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in
the latest movie.

5: Extremely biased towards any Alien possibility and directing research only in that direction
ignoring any evidence to the contrary as if it doesn't even exist.

6: Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something
potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even
5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation
offered as a cover up.

7: Connecting UFOs with psychics, channellers and other unscientific occult practises. If you want
UFOs taken seriously why make it even more wacky it doesn't help and I don't believe you.

8: Name calling and ridiculing seems common to anyone who had a different view I don't really
mind this but it isn't exactly proving their case to me.

I could probably keep going but those would be the main ones I have noticed yet they seem to be repeated constantly.

I keep using the religious analogy when it comes to the Alien UFO supporting crowd but it really seems that way to me they are preaching beliefs with no evidence and are clearly very emotionally attached to the Aliens are the only possibility mindset.

UFO is exactly what it claims to be Unidentified flying object I fail to see any connection to Alien spacecraft which is the first jump of logic to many of you. I think if I've learned anything it is to not take UFO reports very seriously when some people see every light in the sky as Aliens it makes all reports less convincing as a whole.

I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.




[edit on 10-10-2006 by masqua]

Mod Edit: CAP title

[edit on 10-10-2006 by kinglizard]




posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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Number 3 and your conclusion hit head on in a collision of contradiction. Do you know what science is? Anything and everything is science. Didn't Columbus already sail the seas and wasn't it considered a few hundred years ago that the Earth isn't the center of the universe? How many astronauts have come forward and have claimed that they will testify under oath as to what they've seen i.e. Alien spacecraft. How many Government whistleblowers? I believe you need to do a vast amount of research in a vigorously fastidious manner without letting any pre-conceived notions stand in your way. Good luck. Until then I'd advise you to slow down a little on the claim that Humans are a chance happening in the infinite universe and that 'Einsteinian' physics is the Jesus personification of the science world.

40 years ago we realized that we could land on the moon! 40 years later you're making the claim that intelligence is a one planet affair and that technology never limbs out beyond what Einstein claimed here on little ol' Earth. Look into Nikola Tesla as well, he did some things much more fascinating than that petit ol' Einstein feller, who, by the way... mostly introduced that notion of wormholes etc. that you wrongly claim only exists in and is only freshly portrayed in the latest movies.

Now if you must know; I myself have had telepathic neural transmissions with Extra-terrestrial(s) and I was so much blessed as for them to show me their lovely light in the sky as we conversed. Do a google video search on STS-UFO's, I think you'll find it to be an intruiging elevation of your curiosity and undeniably presented truth. (truth as opposed to what you've laid claim to)

[edit on 10-10-2006 by UbiquitousInfiniteReality]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 07:54 AM
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Ground visuals - Pilot visuals - Radar Confirmations - Pilot visuals - Photograps - Videos - The goverments of Mexiko, Brazil and Belgium - Nasas Own Videos - Astronauts - ex Presidents of U.S.A - millions of ordinary 'sane' people, etc, etc, etc. Yet you spend your time making a thread like this? admin edit: this forum is for FRIENDLY, CIVIL discussion.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Springer]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:04 AM
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It's not about belief when it comes to all the people that can testify they have seen UFOs, people from the military and other high-ranked officers of the navy etc. And i heard they call them alien spacecraft. There is this disclosure project with over 400 very serious people that want to tell the world the truth about aliens.

You cannot get any proof when the aliens themself want to keep it secret, but i don't know in your mind what is proof. Do you have proof that terrorist from the middle east was crashing the planes into the Twin Towers? It's just a belief people take as 100% the truth when they have only been told so, believing blindly what the goverment said.

Please wake up and take a closer look at things from a neutral perspective. Research.

The problem is that people are to consiumed in human problems and not wanting to understand the bigger picture. There is something terribly wrong with the world. Everyone can see it, and feel it. The goverment has put every rescourses into making UFO a laughing subject. We are closer to aliens then many people are willing to accept.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by InSaneTK]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:12 AM
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I love readin' posts like this from "light-contributors". I always wonder are they braggin' or complainin'? The usual arguments of non-critical thinkin' are all there, non-sequitor, global statements, over-generalization, blahdy-blah... entertaining if they were not so similar to so many others... an unbeliever is just as vulnerable as one who does believe... I find it illuminating to see how many "believers-not" frequent such subject matter almost with religious zeal. Doubt is a powerful seed to sew... doesn't grow well in concrete tho' - keep swingin'.

Victor K.

41'



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by UbiquitousInfiniteReality
Number 3 and your conclusion hit head on in a collision of contradiction. Do you know what science is? Anything and everything is science. Didn't Columbus already sail the seas and wasn't it considered a few hundred years ago that the Earth isn't the center of the universe?


Anything and everything is science I'm afraid the existence of the word unscientific shows it isn't sorry. I fail to see the contradiction you speak of as well. How does columbus sailing anywhere prove UFOS are Aliens.



How many astronauts have come forward and have claimed that they will testify under oath as to what they've seen i.e. Alien spacecraft. How many Government whistleblowers? I believe you need to do a vast amount of research in a vigorously fastidious manner without letting any pre-conceived notions stand in your way.


I don't know of any astronuts who have came forward who are you speaking off?. You do know sometimes people have agendas for making claims. Do these astronauts you speak of have any physical evidence and do they happen to be making any money from these claims.



Good luck. Until then I'd advise you to slow down a little on the claim that Humans are a chance happening in the infinite universe and that 'Einsteinian' physics is the Jesus personification of the science world.40 years ago we realized that we could land on the moon! 40 years later you're making the claim that intelligence is a one planet affair and that technology never limbs out beyond what Einstein claimed here on little ol' Earth.


I didn't say humans are a chance happening at all although it is possible as we have no evidence to the contrary. Aliens could exist but the distance between stars means we will probably never know.


Originally posted by DigThat
Ground visuals - Pilot visuals - Radar Confirmations - Pilot visuals - Photograps - Videos - The goverments of Mexiko, Brazil and Belgium - Nasas Own Videos - Astronauts - ex Presidents of U.S.A - millions of ordinary 'sane' people, etc, etc, etc. Yet you spend your time making a thread like this? Sorry, guy- but I think you're either ignorant or stupid. Hmmm; maybe a bit of both


see points 2 and 8 enough said


Originally posted by InSaneTK
It's not about belief when it comes to all the people that can testify they have seen UFOs, people from the military and other high-ranked officers of the navy etc. And i heard they call them alien spacecraft. There is this disclosure project with over 400 very serious people that want to tell the world the truth about aliens.


These people all have their own agendas maybe its fame maybe its money maybe their just desperate to try and make their beliefs taken more seriously. a lot of people make a lot of wild claims It's Attention seeking at best.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I have been observing a lot of the arguments used by the usual UFO fan boys on the boards here and have noticed the following arguments used in every case.

1: Trying to prove a Alien UFOs by a process of elimination using the same faulty reasoning I could
claim all UFOs must be Dragons.


I think you'll find that process of elimination is the basis of sound scientific theory.



2: Believing that a lot of unconvincing cases are as good evidence as 1 airtight case. They are not.


Are you saying that the Betty/Barney Hill case, The Lonnie Zamora sighting, or maybe the Belgian AF chase in the early 90's aren't convincing?



3: Trying to make unbelievers disprove visiting Aliens don't exist. There is no way to prove anything
doesn't exist if I was to claim Invisible Dragons exist no one can disprove me. The burden of
proof should be on whoever is making the far out claims.


Yes. It should be. So prove aliens don't exist, as you appear to be claiming here that they do not visit this planet, or ever have.



4: Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as
wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in
the latest movie.


Science is relevant only to the timeframe of the obsever. If you were to show a Victorian something like Concorde, or a modern PC, they would not be able to comprehend how it worked initially. Are you honestly so ignorant to believe that what is currently understood is the absolute pinnacle of all scientific knowledge?



5: Extremely biased towards any Alien possibility and directing research only in that direction
ignoring any evidence to the contrary as if it doesn't even exist.


If you have an interest, you are bound to be biased towards it. However, I think that if you knew about serious UFOlogy, you would know that naerly 99% of the cases presented for investigation are disproved, but its the 1% that are the intriguing ones, that can't be answered by "conventional" explantions"



6: Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something
potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even
5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation
offered as a cover up.


Mahattan Project. Iran-Contra. U2. SR 71 Blackbird. F117. Tacit Blue. B2. Bird of Prey - do I have to go on? There are STILL classified files from WW2 held by the US and British Governments that have yet to be released.



7: Connecting UFOs with psychics, channellers and other unscientific occult practises. If you want
UFOs taken seriously why make it even more wacky it doesn't help and I don't believe you.


So look at the hardcore cases. Sort the wheat from the chaff. I gave you three examples above. Explain them.



8: Name calling and ridiculing seems common to anyone who had a different view I don't really
mind this but it isn't exactly proving their case to me.


This coming from a person who posts a massive thread on a subject he's trying to debunk - for what reason? - and who apparently hasn't looked at the more difficult cases.



I could probably keep going but those would be the main ones I have noticed yet they seem to be repeated constantly.

I keep using the religious analogy when it comes to the Alien UFO supporting crowd but it really seems that way to me they are preaching beliefs with no evidence and are clearly very emotionally attached to the Aliens are the only possibility mindset.


If a lack of evidence includes ground traces, increased background radiation levels, photos, sightings by military personnel, including airforce pilots, radar tracks on civilian and military radars and even gun camera footage from fighter jets is lack of evidence then hell, I agree with you.



UFO is exactly what it claims to be Unidentified flying object I fail to see any connection to Alien spacecraft which is the first jump of logic to many of you. I think if I've learned anything it is to not take UFO reports very seriously when some people see every light in the sky as Aliens it makes all reports less convincing as a whole.


So discount the sheep and do the research yourself. Look at the real hardcore cases, instead of trash talking about the dubious ones.



I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.


Research. I gave you three cases above. Look at them. Sort out the wheat from the chaff. Yes its true that 99% of what is reported is explainable but the 1%......think about it.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by neformore]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by DigThat
Ground visuals - Pilot visuals - Radar Confirmations - Pilot visuals - Photograps - Videos - The goverments of Mexiko, Brazil and Belgium - Nasas Own Videos - Astronauts - ex Presidents of U.S.A - millions of ordinary 'sane' people, etc, etc, etc. Yet you spend your time making a thread like this? Sorry, guy- but I think you're either ignorant or stupid. Hmmm; maybe a bit of both



Originally posted by Shamanator
see points 2 and 8 enough said.

you're just making up poorly thought of "points" cause you can't actually debate your beliefs in a way that makes any real sense.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:07 AM
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Aliens and ufos seem to be the problem area.

Pictures of both exist.

If we go this way:

Are Alien pictures and information real, NO.

Are ufo pictures and information real, YES.

Are there dis information for ufos, YES.

So how can a secret be kept for 100 or 50 years?

In the hands of a few people it may be possible and in government
or the military if you do not get orders to go an a black project, well
then you will not know will you.

So I think ufos and secret keeping are real, and must make that assumption
in any theory you prefer to use to analyze what, pictures and information.

None of us will get much more than that on the internet at least.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:33 AM
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The crop circles were warning sgins that said "ignorant apes on this planet, visit at your own risk."

Unfortunalty, it had the opposite effect.....whahaaa


But seriously, I find it very unusual that artist of our past have bothered to paint UFOs in their religious paints, UFOs not unlike that of what we still see to this very day. I don't think they had top secert flying experiments then.... unless they were from Atlantist...hehehee.

You want more proof, look into our past... all those ancient text, paintings...sky gods, sky people, teachers from the sky, sky chariots, God like beings, ancient artifacts, etc, etc. I am sure they didn't have any sci-fi channels or books in those days.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 09:52 AM
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I am neutral for the most part but I prefer not to throw stones at believers that show sound mind arguments.

It's a shame when you never open your mind up to possibilities, as there are miracles happening around us every day. To deny that aliens may indeed be visiting is as unfortunate a declaration as those that believe every way out story told them. In my opinion both extremes can be bad thinking.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by neformore


I think you'll find that process of elimination is the basis of sound scientific theory.


Not if you just make stuff up and announce its the only conclusion left.


Are you saying that the Betty/Barney Hill case, The Lonnie Zamora sighting, or maybe the Belgian AF chase in the early 90's aren't convincing?

Yes in my eyes there has never been a convincing case of a UFO being an alien craft. Between all the hoaxers and other explanations Aliens are low on my list of possibles.


Yes. It should be. So prove aliens don't exist, as you appear to be claiming here that they do not visit this planet, or ever have.

I've already stated it's impossible to prove anything doesn't exist but that doesnt mean it does if there is no evidence towards it.


Science is relevant only to the timeframe of the obsever. If you were to show a Victorian something like Concorde, or a modern PC, they would not be able to comprehend how it worked initially. Are you honestly so ignorant to believe that what is currently understood is the absolute pinnacle of all scientific knowledge?

No but we have the basic laws down now and we can judge what may or may not be possible using them.


If you have an interest, you are bound to be biased towards it. However, I think that if you knew about serious UFOlogy, you would know that naerly 99% of the cases presented for investigation are disproved, but its the 1% that are the intriguing ones, that can't be answered by "conventional" explantions"

The 1% you speak of could easily be hoaxers with fire balloons, laser pointers or any other plausible explanation. There bound to be a certain amount of cases were nobody can prove anything either way due to lack of evidence of any sort. Just a case of you cant examine what isnt there anymore.


Mahattan Project. Iran-Contra. U2. SR 71 Blackbird. F117. Tacit Blue. B2. Bird of Prey - do I have to go on? There are STILL classified files from WW2 held by the US and British Governments that have yet to be released.

None of them stayed secret for very long the F117 is the best example we have of a long kept secret. It speaks for itself how many people saw triangle "Alien" UFO's in that timeframe around airbases. Yet it was photographed clearly pretty quickly and wasnt a secret no more.



Originally posted by ixiy
But seriously, I find it very unusual that artist of our past have bothered to paint UFOs in their religious paints, UFOs not unlike that of what we still see to this very day. I don't think they had top secert flying experiments then.... unless they were from Atlantist...hehehee.

You want more proof, look into our past... all those ancient text, paintings...sky gods, sky people, teachers from the sky, sky chariots, God like beings, ancient artifacts, etc, etc. I am sure they didn't have any sci-fi channels or books in those days.


I'm afraid the paintings you speak of are well known and debunked already not that it's stops them being constantly used as evidence. This site puts them in context with their real meanings sprezzatura.it...



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Shaman do you know that ufo stands for Unidentified Flying Object?

Are you saying that there are no unidentified flying objects in history?

Wow i am speechless if someone would believe there has never been a ufo.

The goverment is doing a good job at making skeptic fanatics.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by selfless
Shaman do you know that ufo stands for Unidentified Flying Object?
Are you saying that there are no unidentified flying objects in history?
Wow i am speechless if someone would believe there has never been a ufo.
The goverment is doing a good job at making skeptic fanatics.


Maybe I named this thread badly of course I believe in UFOs every bird in the sky is a UFO until you get a closer look to identify it what I don't really believe in is Alien UFOs or all UFOs being assumed to be Alien when there is absolutely no reason or evidence to jump to that conclusion.

In hindsight I should have named it warped logic of ALIEN UFO believers.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:33 AM
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From a physics standpoint, what gets you up in the air.

Your weight,W, is the force that must be countered and electrical forces
are great and shown to be up to the task.

W = m a, Your weight equals your mass times 32.2 fps, the ufo might weight
a ton or more.

If a magnetic field is forced into attraction to a current like a elevator, you got
something.

The only problem is your floor must radiate a mag field and the current must
be in the air.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:34 AM
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Shamanator, why don't you take a look at some of the evidence, like this video

video.google.com...

This man has been killed for the information that he gave out, he was murdered in 2001.

He explains a lot of things for you. Give me a reasion why he would lie about all that he said.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Well, it's no wonder so and so's (ME) being so skeptic - his logical (ME) mind is completely shut to anything & everything that people are telling him. He's basically finding the tiniest, most meaningless holes in your arguements, to which he points out, throws in your faces and blows out of proportion. His hopes are to "win" his case over by any means necessary.

Shamantor,

Humans grow up being brainwashed by what they read in schoolbooks.... And that's particularly why scientists are generally skeptics; their minds are so tightly shut, because they're arrogant enough to think that if they haven't been taught it at school and/or self-discovered, that it ultimately can't exist. It's a bit like those scientists who once thought that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the Earth. They were eventually proven wrong.

Science will NEVER unconditionally acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrial/extradimensional organisms, so long as they're under government scrutiny. And if they ever did show slight hints of approval, chaos would ensue; religious people (which make up approx. 85% of the total pop.) would be outraged, and great amounts of fear would rattle everyone up when they figure that a more intelligent & powerful alien race, who've mastered space flight, are capable of running # on earth.

...that's when "DEDUCTIVE REASONING" and "COMMON SENSE" come into play. You want "evidence?" Here it is:

1) There have been loads, and loads of eye-witness testimony reports compiled throughout the years. There has also been a chockfull of amateur footage captured. Is ALL of that footage authentic? Ofcourse not. But at the same instant however, a small percentage of the ufos caught by these amateurs have also been caught by other amateurs, in other parts of the world, with several different cameras. The infamous white "orbs" have been spotted by people in all countries (especially in Mexico), even here in the US. UFO hobbyist Rich Giordano devotes his free time pointing a video camera up at the Arizona skies in hopes of capturing these ufos... and with luck - he has a pretty extensive archive of all the orbs he's captured (most of which form "complex, geometric patterns and shapes" in the sky before disappearing). To even consider questioning the ufo phenomena at this point is nothing short of insulting, when you think of the effort and time it took for him to compile an actual archive (most people spend their lives trying to capture just ONE... and have no luck at doing so). His archive can be viewed here: www.cnufos.com

2) From early BC, to early AD; and even now in our present day and age, there have been COUNTLESS amounts of ufo/alienesque depictions through various symbols and hieroglyphic, left behind from a chockfull of ancient civilizations, like the Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, and the Egyptians. This alien symbolism has, and will ALWAYS be a surefire, "scientific" source that ultimately backs up the alien phenomena. It's also part of earth's history. Pictures of some of these depictions can be found on this fantastic site: www.ufoartwork.com

3) Over 400 government, military, and scientific officials came forth on May 9, 2001 in a historic national press club conference conducted by Steven M. Greer, in what was known as the "Disclosure Project." The purpose of this conference was to hear & record witness testimony offered by those 400+ top-ranking officials surrounding their personal knowledge/sightings of ufos/aliens. Some officials included Gordon Cooper (retired NASA astronaut), Colonel Philip Corso (high-ranking Army official) and Dr. Robert Wood (retired aerospace engineer). More info. here: www.disclosureproject.org

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ME= Mod Edit



[edit on 10-10-2006 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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cont...

4) There have been hundreds, and hundreds of hours of NASA space footage captured from the space shuttles during various sts shuttle missions, discovered by Martyn Stubbs. "Evidence : The Case For NASA ufos," was a recent dvd/book created by physicist/ufologist David Sereda, and in it he explains by way of physics, how and WHY the objects in the footage are infact intelligent UFOs, and not meteors, satellites, or debris (more info. here: www.ufonasa.com). The very same "NASA" footage was originally released in a documentary known as "The Smoking Gun," but didn't have a host to explain and talk about the ufos in question, like Sereda does in his movie. The same footage was also aired on TLC's "The best UFO evidence ever captured."

5) The infamous Derbyshire/Bonsall account : www.rense.com/general19/new.htm . This ufo is believed to have been one of those ufos captured in the NASA transmissions, because it's physical characteristics are identical; a hole etched out in the center, a notch carved out near the rim and mysterious "pulsing" effect on it's surface. The only difference is, this UFO was actually captured IN earth's atmosphere, not in space. There is testimony, video(s), and even a few e-mails from dumb skeptics/debunkers throwing out their typically lame explanations (to which they're responded to). You can even see a UK army military helicopter investigating the area where the ufo was spotted at the day after, in one of the clips - surefire evidence indicating government/military involvement.

Now it's YOUR turn to "DEDUCE" from the above shreds and formulate a logical conclusion. Analyze the info. I just provided you with, and put the pieces of the puzzle together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the T&C's

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

You have a U2U

(removed distasteful comment)

[edit on 10-10-2006 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:46 AM
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Another good video to watch is "A case for nasa ufos parts 1&2 "by David Serada.(google video)He explains everything in great detail.There is alot of information pertaining to ufos on the internet,but you have to keep an open mind.I for one believe it is highly possible for other lifeforms to exist in the vastness of space.There is alot of things out there that we haven't discovered yet,but I truely believe we will someday(hopefully in my lifetime)have our proof.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by crowpruitt]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
Yes in my eyes there has never been a convincing case of a UFO being an alien craft. Between all the hoaxers and other explanations Aliens are low on my list of


OK then. Lets take the three cases I mentioned one at a time. It will be an interesting exercise.

Tell me about the Belgian AF case in the early 90's, and the associated UFO 'flap' that occured ay that time. I'm genuinely interested in your theories on the case, and as you dimiss it I assume you are familiar with it.



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