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warped logic of Alien UFO believers

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posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 08:22 PM
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Exactly, it's all about faith. I was being general, I wasn't trying to flame or hurt anyone on the fourm with that. But it's like that, like it is with religion and beliefs systems. I just wanted to point that out, not to mention the phenomon has a few religions of it's own.




posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 11:55 PM
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OK - as a skeptic I'll cede.
Because there are accounts, photos and video. Including paintiings, pictures, and sketches going back for centuries the following must exist

I can not disprove the existance of the following.

Fairies
Dragons
Unicorns
Aliens
Kracken
The Easter Rabbit
The Tooth Fairy


Each of these are well documented and there are many thousands of accounts to support their existance. Even though there is not one shred of physical evidence to support their existance. It is about Belief.

I take that back - of the lot Dragons edge out the others, but I won't cherry pick here.






[edit on 14-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by nullster
OK - as a skeptic I'll cede.
Because there are accounts, photos and video. Including paintiings, pictures, and sketches going back for centuries the following must exist

I can not disprove the existance of the following.

Fairies
Dragons
Unicorns
Aliens
Kracken
The Easter Rabbit
The Tooth Fairy


Each of these are well documented and there are many thousands of accounts to support their existance. Even though there is not one shred of physical evidence to support their existance. It is about Belief.

I take that back - of the lot Dragons edge out the others, but I won't cherry pick here.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by nullster]


No evidence for the unusal? Sheesh. Well as Shamanator and yourself clearly can't be bothered to read up on the subjects heres a taster

Cash/Landrum

Sighting of a large triangular shaped object that left behind extreme physical traces. Victims suffered extreme sickness and burns to their skin.

Belgian UFO wave

Following reports by hundreds of ground based observers including police and serving military, backed by radar traces on civilian and military equipment. F-16 Interceptors scrambled to identify an object. Radar tape footage from F-16 fighter jets of an object moving at incredible speed and performing some rather startling manouvers that left the jets standing and that implied intelligent control, namely;

- Speed changes of up to 410 knots in one second.
- Heading changes of up to 70 degrees in one second.
- Altitude changes of up to 3000 feet per second (1,777 knots) maintained for one second or less and typical ascent / descent rates of 1000 feet per second (592 knots).

Belgian military investigated it thoroughly, classed it as an unknown, and put the evidence out for scientific scrutiny.

Lonnie Zamora

Serving police officer with considerable experience sights an object in barren land and moves to investigate. Describes witnessing two small beings carrying out some kind of soil analysis and an egg shaped craft. Beings are alarmed by his approach and move back into the craft which then takes off, scaring the officer who calls for backup. Sighting corroborated by witnesses in the surrounding area who see the object depart. Ground traces left behind at the scene.

No evidence. Hmmm



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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That doesn't mean ETs don't exsist. Their the most liekly to exsist. My point is not every UFO believer or believer in ETs is an abductee of them. Like celebrities who believe in them. I could list them if I remembered them better. But it's too early for me this morning. See you guys in a few hours.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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neformore - I understand there are allot of people on this board/Forum who did not live their younger formitive years in the cloud of the "The Cold War". Durring that time more than anytime before and since the UFO and Alien phenomenon grew at exponential rates.

Between two years before the close of WWII and the Official close of the Cold War in 1993, there were 100's of thousands of photographed events and accounts of sightings. THis includes purported landings. It was a shock on my younger years but became more understandable in my later years that the US government, Brittain, Canada, and its other allies were working to produce unconventional craft. Highly volotile craft (possibly Nuclear powered). What many people don't know is that we had the technology to produce a Nuclear powered (winged aircraft) bomber by the late 1950's, but the US decided that just one accident would lead to dissatererous radioactive fallout.

Hence the government(s) could produce smaller craft under the cover/auspices of the UFO phenomenon that was in high gear at the time. The perfect cover if somethnig had gone horribly wrong. Always note that these cases involved the military moving in quckly to recover these vehicles. This is the smoking gun. This is the explanation. The US government and its allies experimented with highly volotile radioactive vehicles that could have wreaked havok on out own populations. The UFO phenomenon provided the perfect cover when craft went down. More importantly official denial of events simply put potential dissaster on the Aliens. Excused the governments and military out of civilian accountability. How convenient if you ever recieved lethal doses of radioactive poisening.

If you want I can post a picture of the declassified USAF Nuclear bomber that was a space bourne vehicle that was saucer shaped. Just one of the programs said to be nixed. So the liklyhood these accounts are military related are extraordinarily high. THere would have been prototypes that were tested.







[edit on 15-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I dont believe in aliens flying UFOs true, I could be wrong though, of course I think its unlikely I am but i'm kinda biased.


kind of biased?

that is an understatement.

you have decided to believe as fact a truth that only exists when you IGNORE all the points you have dodged in this thread.

you have decided to believe as fact a truth that only exists when you IGNORE all legends, all mythologies, all recorded truths of ALL cultured peoples on this planet.

you have already decided to believe as fact and believe as truth a thing you refuse to hear any more information concerning.

to what effect? to the effect you started, and you continue, to exert your will upon an entire reality you refuse to share with all other souls on this planet. this must be true, because you bring discredit upon the entire human race by calling the basis for all cultures liars.

you ignore Ancient Sumer and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore Ancient Egyptians and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore Ancient South American Olmecs, Mayans, Nazca, and Aztecs and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore the Dogon Tribe of Northwestern Africa and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore the Dropa peoples of Ancient China and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore the Aboriginies of Australia and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.


you ignore the Ancient Cave Art scattered the world over dating back to 47,000 b.c. who only painted what they saw and could be interpretted only as their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

you ignore the Tribal Natives of North America, such as the Hopi and the Anazazi and all tribes and their stories of Extra Terrestrials who introduced concepts and sciences that we only re-discoverd in the 1900s, and found out that someone must have known something that can only be known from outside earth's atmosphere. i would tell you what that is, but you are not hearing it.

You ignore all people who saw flying craft doing things that nature does not reproduce, and you call them liars. EVEN IF THEY WERE THE LEADERS OF THE MOST TECHNILOGICALLY ADVANCED NATIONS ON EARTH!!!!! Even if they were the leaders of the most technilogically advanced nations on earth saying these things are real, and no one here is making them, you ignore them. you don't even hear their words. why? you are incapable, and their truth, which is the truth, is incompatible with your truth. why? not because their truth is not true, but because you are too afraid of the truth. to the extent you have to ignore it. to the extent you can't hear it. to the extent you can't see it.

judge UFO and ETs as not visiting and unreal and evil lies?

you choose not to hear what you judge as evil.
you choose not to see what you judge as evil.
you choose not to speak about what you judge as evil.

you have a lot in common with 3 monkeys i know

Why should i allow your fears to dictate my perseption of reality, when my perception of reality coincides with all cultures, all religions, and all peoples and all their nation's leaders? your reality does not coincide with the truths of the peoples of this planet.



Originally posted by fyodor
Humans grow up being brainwashed by what they read in schoolbooks....


amen.

their "alphabet" is the "alphibet" is the "all fib i bet". Broken minds created all broken languages.


I agree a lot of the population is basicly trained to behave and think a certain way its not the reason most scientists are skeptics though the reason is just a lack of evidence.


the problem is not lack of evidence. the problem is peoples refusal to be capable of experiencing the evidence. Why? the only barriers within peoples minds are their fears. if they can not conquer their fears within their own minds, their fears will be manifested by them in reality, and within a shared reality.



Originally posted by fyodor
Science will NEVER unconditionally acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrial/extradimensional organisms, so long as they're under government scrutiny.


government does not have the authority to keep the truth from you, but they do have the authority to distract you with the appearance of too much information.



Nobody should ever unconditionally believe anything or it's no more than a religion or wishful thinking.


you think?



I guess it is possible they can keep secrets for quite a while 50 years is really pushing it though


this "50 years of coverup" is not true. you lie to us. you lie to the contributors and to the posters in this thread. this arguement is moot and it is mute. this arguement of "50 years of secrecy and cover-up" has already been addressed in this thread, and proven to be false. unless of course you IGNORE the leader of the most technically advanced nation on earth. Which is exactly what you have done. you have ignored the leader of the most technilogically advanced nation on earth when you say there has been over 50 years of denial, 50 years of cover-up, 50 years of secrecy. in order for this to be true, you have to prove you know more than the leader of the most technically advanced nation on earth. you have not done this.



If you are going to post that as fact you really do need something to back it up not even a name given or source cited otherwise as an arguement it is worthless.


Why should he have to?

The author of this thread sets the standards of rules for this thread, and the author of this thread does not follow the advice of the above quote, so why does the threadmaker expect others to play by rules he doesn't adhere to?

because he even IGNORES himself, and his own truths.












posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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Well I lived every day of the Cold War. In the 50s we were all crapping our pants for fear the Russkies were on their way over the pole with nukes only to later learn their bombers didn't have the range.


I lived through the times when UFO sightings produced multiple camps of insight
1. People saying they were flying around the solar system with aliens from Venus.
2. Not just skeptics but debunkers and those who believed in them dismissing every incident as phoney
3. Skeptical people but open to the possibility that something was happening simply due to the sheer statistical probability.

I class myself in the 3rd area. I don't believe every unsourced web photo or story but know the probability is good that we are not alone in a galaxy with about 1 billion yellow dwarf stars like our sun out of 100 billion. and simply because WE don't know how to efficiently travel about doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

Fairies
Dragons
Unicorns
Aliens
Kracken
The Easter Rabbit
The Tooth Fairy

Problem is that everything in this list was knowingly invented out of imagination or fictional stories and was never perported to be anything other that fantsasy until someone perverted them into "real" stories. Except for off-planet aliens, dragons and even kracken. The latter 2 may have well been incorrectly deduced as real from dinsaur fossils found before paleoarcheology existed.

That leaves aliens. There is no source that can be traced back as a foundation for aliens as the originators can of fairies, unicorns, easter rabbit or tooth fairy; and lets throw in santa claus. Some one instigated the genre of fairies by penning a known-to-be-fictional story. None of these fantasy entities have been not only seen but captured on film and video repeatedly by a cross section of humanity from all stations in life across the entire globe.

Are there actually accounts from Brazillian scientific expeditions insisting that they saw and captured on film the tooth fairy, easter bunny, fairies and/or unicorns? No, but there are concerning UFOs



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
kind of biased?

that is an understatement.

you have decided to believe as fact a truth that only exists when you IGNORE all the points you have dodged in this thread.

you have decided to believe as fact a truth that only exists when you IGNORE all legends, all mythologies, all recorded truths of ALL cultured peoples on this planet.

you have already decided to believe as fact and believe as truth a thing you refuse to hear any more information concerning.

to what effect? to the effect you started, and you continue, to exert your will upon an entire reality you refuse to share with all other souls on this planet. this must be true, because you bring discredit upon the entire human race by calling the basis for all cultures liars.



Yes I am biased to my own beliefs and you are biased to your beliefs obviously.

I have not ignored anything I have looked at all these things and the evidence supporting them and ruled them out most are bad translations by people selling books about the now completely debunked planet x. Believe it or not I have read Stitchen, Alford, Michael Tsarion and others I just came to a different conclusion when I checked the facts for myself.
It seems to me the person with the closed mind here might be you but never mind as long as you are happy you can believe in the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers for all I care.



Ok I see a few are determined to twist this thread into a alien UFOs exist thread that isn't what it was about but fine I'll bite for 1 post

Some reasons why UFOs are not Alien in nature.

1: People who report UFOs ussually have their own agendas
a few examples

* making money selling the story or writing books
* a scam to take money from believers.
* they want their names in the paper
* a joke
* desperate for attention
* people hiding from reality
* etc

2: Misidentifications of UFOs
a few examples

* advertizing planes seen edge on look like rotating disc
* aircraft seen at unusual angles will assume many varied shapes
* aircraft lights at night have many configurations
* balloons and lighted balloons
* plastic bags really look strange in wind
* illegal activity with aircraft can follow strange paths
* radio controlled model aircraft
* jet exhaust distorts all light passing through it
* kites, hobby rockets, parachutes, trash
* etc

3: Hoaxsters faking UFOs for amusement
a few examples

* fire balloons really fly and glow
* surplus weather balloons will carry flares aloft just fine
* glow sticks have been hung from trees or wires
* crop circles are easily created with some boards
* lighted Frisbee disks and glow in the dark items can fool people
* flying saucer kites that spin can be found in novelty stores
* tabloids will do anything to fake a sighting
* etc

4: Unidentified for reasons other than being Alien
a few examples

* descriptions given are so poor that noone can figure them out
* wrong assumptions of actual distance, size, or speed
* autokinesis can make stars, planets, and stationary lights seem to move
* atmospheric conditions cause stars and planets to move or scintillate
* descriptions gets embellished by sighter or pro-alien investigator
* some are eye problems or optical illusions
* crackpots add extraneous and misleading data to the case
* misleading information from official sources
* halucinations
* etc

5: Some other reasons
a few examples

* atmospheric conditions can bend radar beams, distorting locations of objects
* ball lightning
* satellites/space debris re entering the atmosphere
* specular reflections of the sun from aircraft or satellites
* failure to prove unconventional explanations is not proof against them
* beliefs often affect scientific judgement
* etc


Every single one of these is far more likely than an Alien flying a spaceship looking for cows to harass. You can bet there is also far more conventional explanations than what I can think of as well.
There is no evidence Aliens have ever visited earth. Unless you have physical evidence it is really a mute point.

Just for the record I have never said Aliens do not exist Just that there is no evidence they are visiting earth and I sincerely hope they never do. I do not see through the rose tinted glasses some of you have regarding these all loving Aliens.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 04:36 PM
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Cruizer "Knowingly invented?" - That's a rather convenient broad stroke. Unicorn , Faries, and Dragons are as knowingly invented as aliens. So we know aliens are knowingly invented. End of story right?

None with the possible exception of Dragons has a proven global presence that goes back for centuries. Yet I don't believe in dragons. Historicaly the argument can be made for all the items I listed. If as in many threads one Must dispove the existance of UFOs and Aliens , then one must disprove the existance of those entities that preceed aliens and offer foar more suporrt in equal evidence. Unless of course one has an agenda to prop up and cherry pick Aliens.

I am wholly objective on the subject of UFO's and Aliens. I am a big fan of the subject matter. I draw, model, illustrate, animate and write about UFO and Alien beings, but I am not bound to it. There is no belief system involved for me. I have a clear focused view that is open minded to possibilities but free of the absolutes - one way or the other. I can cases for what they most likely are, not something I need them to be.

Astep further - I really enjoy science fiction, Faux science, fiction, science etc equally. With that, I find that many accounts and theories presented propogate the faux science and fiction realms. When straight forward rationale or facts can not justify the cause or case, extreme excetions or missdirections are put in place to fill the gaps. This is what I feel the original post is all about. In many accounts and retellings, there is a appearent ****** logic to smooth away inconsistencies and plot holes.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
It seems to me the person with the closed mind here might be you but never mind as long as you are happy you can believe in the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers for all I care.


I'll come back to this and make you eat your words. But first, i am going to make you eat some of your other words.




Ok I see a few are determined to twist this thread into a alien UFOs exist thread that isn't what it was about but fine I'll bite for 1 post


so, you are saying this thread has been twisted into a thread that "alien UFOs exist"?

Well, if it seems "twisted" to you, it is only because you choose to IGNORE your own introductory post that began this entire thread. you are only right in making the above statements if you discredit your own introductory post which began this entire thread:



I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.


ha ha. here comes your words "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers".

YOU SAID:
"If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be."

Then, consider the truth:

neutrons, electrons, and protons are not matter, nor are they physical. What you consider as "SOLID" is not solid at all. it is condensed energy, condensed light.

if i were to shrink you down to the size of an atom and ask you to reach out and grab an electron, neutron, or proton, you could not accomplish it. there is nothing to grab.

in fact you have never touched anything in your entire life.

the world's brightest minds and top scientists the world over all say that an electo-magnetic field emitted from both the sub-atomic particles that comprise you, and the sub-atomic particles that comprise that which you "think and percieve" that you are touching builds up and the electro-magnetic field is what repells "matter" from "matter", not the atoms themselves, since they are not matter, nor are they physical, nor are they solid.

You said:. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.

You are right. there is no SOLID EVIDENCE, and there NEVER will be.

We are responsible for co-writing reality.

From your mindset you require SOLID EVIDENCE, and you have stated as such.

but, matter is not solid. all that comprises us, and all that comprises all, is not solid, nor is it physical, nor is it what you percieve as "matter".

So, i will agree with the highest respected minds throughout the world, and throughout time and say: what you percieve as "solid physical matter" is not solid, physical, or matter. sub-atomic particles are merely energy (aka POWER) which changes form (aka MORPHS), and yes it is MIGHTY even though it is not solid, physical, or matter.


Originally posted by Shamanator
It seems to me the person with the closed mind here might be you but never mind as long as you are happy you can believe in the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers for all I care.


I'm happy my observations coincide with Einstein, Hawkings, as well as a slew of other great minds. i am happy i can believe in the Might Morphing Powers.

Let me know when you find your "SOLID EVIDENCE"

Since nothing is solid: you have no solid evidence for anything.

nor do i. but my beliefs do not require me to believe in what does not exist. your beliefs do require "Solid Evidence", which does not exist, nor (by your own words) ever will.

YOU SAID:
"If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be."

what real solid evidence? nothing is solid. keep searching, move along, nothing to see here. ... . . .





1: People who report UFOs ussually have their own agendas


what a prejudice statement. What percentage of people who have reported UFOs have you ever met, or talked to?





2: Misidentifications of UFOs


* advertizing planes seen edge on look like rotating disc
* aircraft seen at unusual angles will assume many varied shapes
* aircraft lights at night have many configurations
* balloons and lighted balloons
* plastic bags really look strange in wind
* illegal activity with aircraft can follow strange paths
* radio controlled model aircraft
* jet exhaust distorts all light passing through it
* kites, hobby rockets, parachutes, trash
* etc


If i said i didn't have a cure for cancer because these 100 million did not work, but only this one did . . . . .. ..



3: Hoaxsters faking UFOs for amusement
a few examples


What were there actions and behaviors a result of? What were their intentions for the Hoax?


4: Unidentified for reasons other than being Alien
a few examples

* descriptions given are so poor that noone can figure them out

perhaps in ancient times they did not have the words available to describe what it was they were witnessing, but did the best job they could.


* etc


"Etc" is a GREAT EXAMPLE, thanks



Every single one of these is far more likely than an Alien flying a spaceship looking for cows to harass.


absolutley. because harassing cows is the only possible reason for them to be visiting.


You can bet there is also far more conventional explanations than what I can think of as well.


i don't pretend to, but simply discreditting the accounts and beliefs of billions, if not trillions of souls over the course of our written and recorded history is a weak cop out, and simply giving up on the truth of their words, instead of taking them seriously.


There is no evidence Aliens have ever visited earth. Unless you have physical evidence it is really a mute point.


There is no physical in reality. sub-atomic particles are not solid. your arguement is mute, and moot. it is a mute point because you refuse to pay attention to reality.

How did the Dogon tribe know that Sirius A&B were actually 2 stars within 1 solar system when it is impossible to see it with the naked eye?

How did the Dogon tribe know that Sirius A & B were actually " A red big one and a little white one, with the little white one taking 50 years to go around the big red one" when it is impossible to see it with the naked eye?

How did the Dogon tribe know in the early 1900s what modern science never discovered until over 50 years later with the construction of a telescope powerful enough to see that Sirius was a binary solar system with a red giant and a white dwarf which took 50 years to complete one revolution around the red giant?

How did the Dogon tribe know things that they did not have the tools, nor the skills, nor the technology to know? By their own words: "The ant people came down from the heavens and told us".

But, you obviously discredit them with your infinite knowledge on the subject.

What was it that the Hopi and Anazazi called their north american visitors? Ah, i remember: "The bug people, and the ant people".

But, you obviously discredit them with your infinite knowledge of the subject.

What were they reffered to by the Dropa Tribe of ancient China/monglia?

Ah, i remember: "the bug ones".

But you obviously discredit them with your infinite knowledge of the subject.


Just for the record I have never said Aliens do not exist Just there is no evidence they are visiting earth sincerely hope they never do. I do not see through the rose tinted glasses some of you have regarding these all loving Aliens.


Well, you may not see through rose tinted glasses as some of us do, but . ..

you do sincerely hope that aliens never visit earth, and that is how you choose to view reality.

and since you are not consciously aware of your subconscious mind, and all your sensory input first gets delivered to your subconscious mind, you are not aware of reality.

your subconscious mind is only capable of presenting your conscious mind with truths that are compatible with your conscious mind's accepted truths.

2,000 impulses of electricity are shared between your brain cells per second in your conscious mind.

400,000,000,000 impulses of electricity are shared between your brain cells per second in your subconscious mind.

so, you are currently utilizing 0.000000002% of your brains potential to come to the conclusions you reach.

but, to conclude the deductions you make, you have had to IGNORE 99.999999998% of your own brains thoughts.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by nullster
neformore - I understand there are allot of people on this board/Forum who did not live their younger formitive years in the cloud of the "The Cold War". Durring that time more than anytime before and since the UFO and Alien phenomenon grew at exponential rates.

Between two years before the close of WWII and the Official close of the Cold War in 1993, there were 100's of thousands of photographed events and accounts of sightings. THis includes purported landings. It was a shock on my younger years but became more understandable in my later years that the US government, Brittain, Canada, and its other allies were working to produce unconventional craft. Highly volotile craft (possibly Nuclear powered). What many people don't know is that we had the technology to produce a Nuclear powered (winged aircraft) bomber by the late 1950's, but the US decided that just one accident would lead to dissatererous radioactive fallout.

Hence the government(s) could produce smaller craft under the cover/auspices of the UFO phenomenon that was in high gear at the time. The perfect cover if somethnig had gone horribly wrong. Always note that these cases involved the military moving in quckly to recover these vehicles. This is the smoking gun. This is the explanation. The US government and its allies experimented with highly volotile radioactive vehicles that could have wreaked havok on out own populations. The UFO phenomenon provided the perfect cover when craft went down. More importantly official denial of events simply put potential dissaster on the Aliens. Excused the governments and military out of civilian accountability. How convenient if you ever recieved lethal doses of radioactive poisening.

If you want I can post a picture of the declassified USAF Nuclear bomber that was a space bourne vehicle that was saucer shaped. Just one of the programs said to be nixed. So the liklyhood these accounts are military related are extraordinarily high. THere would have been prototypes that were tested.

[edit on 15-10-2006 by nullster]



Well I could see the link between that and Cash/Landrum. I am very much aware of the US programs to create a nuclear powered aircraft, starting with the NB36 and going on to atomic engines and proposals for nuclear cruise missiles that not only delivered a punch but also irradiated the area they travelled across...

BUT. Cash/Landrum was an isolated case. There should have been more people with similar afflictions along the flightline. That wasn't the case. There was no dieback of plants on the flightline, or irraidated livestock.

As for the Belgian sighting. Nada. no way. I'm confident that there is nothing manned or unmanned in anyones current inventory, secret or otherwise that can do what the Belgian object did. Think about it, what kind of total nutjob flies an secret plane over the most densely populated part of Western Europe smack band at the end of the cold war? One mistake, one accident and the whole powder keg would go off. Don't forget that back then the F-16 was state of the art and the Belgians couldn't get near what was flying. It sure as hell wasn't a B2, an F117 or an SR71, and if anyone mentions TR3-B then all they are doing is indulging in a fantasy because to be honest no one has any proof at all that such a thing exists, and everything you can read about it is regurgitated re-hashed crap from other peoples websites. There is MORE proof of UFO's than of a TR-3B.

Zamora saw something unique. He saw something similar to what WE would do - namely find an isolated spot, take some samples etc. He had no moties for a hoax, and to be honest there was nothing in that area that the US government couldn't have walked in an got under normal circumstances. You don't need a secret programme to take soil samples and you sure as hell don't need an oval shaped vertical takeoff aircraft. The guy had no need to lie about what he saw, and yet his story is consistent.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 04:58 PM
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I just think ETs exsist because of the odd UFOs on the net, and what about people who just report it and never sell the story. They just tell the newspaper to inform the locals of an area, like in 1947 Roswell, if nothing happend how come nearly two decades worth of military base information is gone? Why isn't it in the LOC or the NA then? Why can't the public or other goverment agencies find anything about it in their own records for the Marines, Airforce, and Military at the base at that time doing "black programs"?

This is what we should be asking, that doesn't mean 95% of the sightings are something normal. But that doesn't mean nothing happened back then either or that the possiblities is outlandish either.



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 11:57 PM
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The problem with many cases (Belgium Traingle Included) is that the source of information is largely derived from UFO sites that are laden with juicy conjecture and disinformation in the guise of proof.

What is a "Mass Sighting" - This term is propogated time and again but when individuals are pressed for public newslinks, video, and photos the oportunity is soundly dropped and anger ensues. The subtance of such a miraculous occurance that purportedly happened over many nights and seen by thousands offers only two blurry image as evidence that are questionable at best. If this same Vehicle floated over my city over the period of a few nights, the news casts would have rung around the world. Simple rationale and objectivery helps. By avoiding excuses we can nail down and sort out the facts for possibilities. By elimiante conjecture and opinion we seperate the wheat from the chaffe and get the real cause of events.

In my view the opinions of most home grown UFOlologits and UFO/Alien specialists should be suspect as there is zero ways to qualify the strength of their studies that are based on zero physical evidence to analyze. This leaves us with community of specialists with no baseline to measure validity.

[edit on 16-10-2006 by nullster]



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by nullster
The problem with many cases (Belgium Traingle Included) is that the source of information is largely derived from UFO sites that are laden with juicy conjecture and disinformation in the guise of proof.
[edit on 16-10-2006 by nullster]


Actually, no. And this proves that you don't know anything about the case you are apparently trying to debunk, or that you read my previous posts properly.

The Belgian Triangle case is fully documented by the Belgian Airforce. There is no conjecture there. The radar footage recorded by the F-16's was made available for public scrutiny directly by the Belgian Ministry of Defence. No Conjecture. A NATO Airforce, flying state of the art equipment released the info, because they did not know what the object was and still don't.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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neformore - Note I mentioned the MASS SIGHTINGS - over many nights. Please provide the explanation for that with links that corroberate these by masses of people over large cities.

This subject has been covered countless times and the links given were to UFO enthusiast web sites loaded with conjecture and personal opinions in the guise of information. Since you consider yourself an expert on the Belgian UFO, please post those links to media sites that covered this monumental event.

If you have validated news sites, I welcome them. Thanks and I look forward to reviewing the video and images the mass Belgian public took over the many nights.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 08:13 PM
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Well you asked

Press reports

Sunday Express (UK) Report on the event, some five years after

Paris Match Article on the Sightings from 1990

Military reports

Summary report by the Belgian AF

Full report from the Belgian AF (Translated, some of it in French)

Radio Transcripts of GCI and Pilots During the intercepts and some stats on the object

Radar Images officially released by the Belgian AF

Sadly the actual video footage from the F-16s radar recordings appear to be mis-linked.

Belgian AF Colonel De Brouwer (Joint Cheif of Staff of the Belgian AF) Discussing the events (Audio)

Final Belgian AF analysis

Colonel De Brouwers Final Report text on the events

Now I do admit these all come from the same site, but they are fully legitimate and accuracte transcripts of what was published at the time. The problem is the case happened on the periphery of decent internet access across Europe so the number of verifiable copies available on the net from multiple sources is hard to find, are are links to corroborating press releases.

Call me a crank if you want, but when the Joint Cheif of Staff of a NATO airforce cannot discount the ET hypothesis, you have to start thinking differently.



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 11:46 PM
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neformore- Thank you very much for those links. Much appreciated.
I'll go through them and hope to see some enlightening information to follow up on.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Call me a crank if you want, but when the Joint Cheif of Staff of a NATO airforce cannot discount the ET hypothesis, you have to start thinking differently.


well first off, yer a crank. rofl sorry it was there...u asked me to...well, said i could and i couldnt have slept if i passed it up


but also, if people arent thinking by now...its too late. one way or the other. i dotn care waht people think as long as they are making up their own minds to do it, which sadly, is seldom the case. people tend to forget that google (hereafter referred to as "the evil empire") and wikipedia are NOT the end all be all for reference material. anyone still read books? anyone still go out and talk to people?

hmmmmm think now while you still can, before its too late, before you forget how.

this PSA brought to you by crazy insomniacs fora better tomorrow.



posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 03:52 AM
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This thread died and it was one of the more interesting one on my list.

I wondered how the Belgian incident info was received?



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
This thread died and it was one of the more interesting one on my list.

I wondered how the Belgian incident info was received?


I also like this thread. And, after reviewing the links you supplied, i think the Belgian incident is another shining example of an unresolved ufo sighting, with credible credentials, and #s to back up the case.

Thanks neformore.



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