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warped logic of Alien UFO believers

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posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by InSaneTK
Shamanator, why don't you take a look at some of the evidence, like this video

video.google.com...

This man has been killed for the information that he gave out, he was murdered in 2001.

He explains a lot of things for you. Give me a reasion why he would lie about all that he said.


I agree, this video should be reviewed by the confused(skeptics). It explains more than enough for the uninformed.
Now if the reader considers him or herself to be an expert on this topic, then I would suggest looking into the remote viewing information regarding the truth about aliens and their agendas. I have also found much hard hitting truth in many channeling cases of information, but remote viewing is the most trustworthy because it is considered to be sort of way to spy into their(aliens) affairs rather than trust what they have to say. If you look into it enough, you will learn that these aliens not only lie at times, but their whole agendas lead them to deceive the world on a grand scale.




posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
OK then. Lets take the three cases I mentioned one at a time. It will be an interesting exercise.
Tell me about the Belgian AF case in the early 90's, and the associated UFO 'flap' that occured ay that time. I'm genuinely interested in your theories on the case, and as you dimiss it I assume you are familiar with it.


I assume this would be some sort of dogfight scenerio involving a UFO the case I'm not familiar with
but if that is what your asking.

Planes have had dogfights with lighted fire balloons at night.
The UFO is always described as being much faster and more maneuverable than the plane actually, the pilot thinks the object is much farther away. The ramming attacks, tight circles, and evasive maneuvers are actually the result of the airplane's own movements. A fire balloon can also appear to vanish into the sky with a small cherry bomb placed into it, also from the ground, a low, slow moving fire balloon can appear to be at the altitude of the plane and outrunning it.

Another possible is meteors go much faster than planes do, and appear much closer than they really are. Theres 2 possible explanations much more realistic than Aliens.

I've watched the case for Nasa UFOs before I saw nothing convincing in it seemed to be all dust from my viewing.

Thanks to whoever changed the thread title for me.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Shamanator i suggest you watch this video.

video.google.com...

It's a very good video with very unique footage i am sure you would appreciate it.


Please note that i am not insulting you in any way by giving you this video link, it's just a very good video for anyone to watch. regardless of where you stand.

Edited: it gets very interesting at arounf 25 mins in when they start to show the thousands of ufo's in the sky all at once and clear as day.

it does not look like a fake video...

[edit on 10-10-2006 by selfless]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I've watched the case for Nasa UFOs before I saw nothing convincing in it seemed to be all dust from my viewing.


Dust? Did you even pay attention & absorb the info. he was giving you, or did you go into the movie with an equally closed-mind and tryed finding little illogical explanations that defy common sense, like you're doing on here?

A "2-3" mile dust particle? If you actually DID see the movie, you'd have realized that the UFOs were travelling BEHIND the teather, as seen in this picture: uplink.space.com...

Now, now let's try opening our brains and utilizing a fantastic feat. that most humans possess, known as common sense: A 12 mile space teather + comparatively large PULSING object appearing BEHIND it = one BIG (ME) dust particle = ILLOGICAL.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the T&C's

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

You have a U2U

ME=Mod Edit
removed censor circumvention and personal attack

[edit on 10-10-2006 by masqua]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by jbondo
I am neutral for the most part but I prefer not to throw stones at believers that show sound mind arguments.

It's a shame when you never open your mind up to possibilities, as there are miracles happening around us every day. To deny that aliens may indeed be visiting is as unfortunate a declaration as those that believe every way out story told them. In my opinion both extremes can be bad thinking.



I have to agree with jbondo.I keep a open mind when it comes to aleins and ufo's.Here is some food for thought.To the true believer no proof is needed but to the skeptic no proof will ever be enough.Having said this there are people on both sides who you will never sway in there opinions.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by fyodor
A "2-3" mile dust particle? If you actually DID see the movie, you'd have realized that the UFOs were travelling BEHIND the teather


I hestitate to respond to you as you appear to be abusive, but your claims here are not substantiated. The only way you'd be able to tell how big something is would be by having another camera for a stereoscopic view. If I hold my thumb out at night and close one eye, I can cover the moon. Does that mean my thumb is as big as the moon?

As for being behind the tether - there is no evidence of that. It is quite common for out-of-focus blurs of close objects to to appear to be behind a much brighter, CCD-saturating object in the distance (such as the tether). So, while I see notched halos from out-of-focus dust, you see alien spacecraft that are miles in diameter and just happen to be oriented flat with respect to the camera location. I wonder which is more likely..



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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Shamanator in your 1st sentence of this thread you use the word "arguements." Unfortunately that seems to be what every discussion on many topic degenerates into. I find it puzzling that people considering topics as esoteric as those on ATS are compelled to "prove" anything since most are unprove-able.

I see many topic headings that are not of interest to me but I don't barge in making fun of participants and arguing opposite points. Why do some do that? Most of these topics can be discussed with differing views offered any of which is not the only valid one. Anybody who pounds their virtual fist demanding their ideas are the only right ones are standing on thin ice since that is a laughable position.

I feel if some people wish to engage in dialogue that is a bit too far afield from MY reality I stay away from the mix. If they desire to share ideas with other who entertain the same, for me, offbeat, theories fine. I abhor those who decide they should bust in and hijack a thread becasue they don't agree with the participants.

But the participants should also keep from flaming those who hold different ideas as long as those ideas were presented with decorum. It's once thing to respond "sorry, but I can't agree with you," and quite another to reply "where'd you get that kind of idiotic idea?"

Why are some people fixated on quests to change other peoples minds? While I may not personally care to engage in discussions about invisible flying dragons, let those that do have fun.

The whole problem is that there is no absolute "right" about most of these topics and arguing about them is banal.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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this opened my eyes
www.youtube.com...



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 01:55 PM
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While I agree with many of your points, your position that a government full of constantly changing people cannot keep a secret for even 5 years is simply false.

The programs where the secrets are kept for many years have life-long contracts with individuals in life-long service to the country. Such secrets have been kept for 5 years. There is a secret that is now at the roughly 4 year mark. 1 more year to meet your criteria.

You can doubt it all you like. That is convenient for the secret keepers.

Otherwise, I agree with most of your points. Its up to people to learn to be rational.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by Ectoterrestrial]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by pmexplorer
this opened my eyes
www.youtube.com...


Hello pmexplorer,

Do you know where i can get the download of this video? i got a 56k and it would take forever to stream it.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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For one complaining about logic...there is none used in these statements.



1: Trying to prove a Alien UFOs by a process of elimination using the same faulty reasoning I could
claim all UFOs must be Dragons.


This same line of reasoning is attempted by you. (i.e. if one UFO is not a spaceship, then all must not be spaceships). I can't think of many "UFO fan boys" who believe all UFO sightings are alien craft. Indeed, almost every UFOlogist (amateur or otherwise) readily admits that the majority of sightings are mistaken mundane causes.



2: Believing that a lot of unconvincing cases are as good evidence as 1 airtight case. They are not.


Who believes this? If there was an "airtight" case, we wouldn't be discussing it. Then again, almost every idea we hold dear as "fact" eventually gets proven mistaken at some point. Remember, it used to be a "fact" that the Earth was flat. It used to be a "fact" that the Earth was the center of the universe. It used to be a "fact" that the atom was the smallest unit of matter.

This also fails to address the rather substantial number of cases that do have a lot of solid evidence such as military involvement, numerous and trained eyewitnesses, instrument recordings, etc.



3: Trying to make unbelievers disprove visiting Aliens don't exist. There is no way to prove anything doesn't exist if I was to claim Invisible Dragons exist no one can disprove me. The burden of proof should be on whoever is making the far out claims.


Isn't it always? Very few things in this world have "proof". Even ideas we hold dear such as the Big Bang, Black Holes, etc. do not have "proof". What they have is "evidence", and there is a lot of "evidence" for at least a small portion of UFOs being craft unlike any built on this Earth.



4: Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in the latest movie.


Actually, these ideas come from some of the most brilliant minds of our times, such as Hawkings, Einstein, etc. Wormholes and the like aren't just in "the latest movie", they are the subjects of physics treatises and other scientific papers and publications. Compare our current understanding of physics to our understanding just 100 years ago. Now consider a being capable of interstellar flight. It is extremely logical to assume that they have a little bit better grasp on astrophysics than we do. (assuming they exist of course)....and that our current ideas about space/time, gravity, etc. may be completely mistaken.



5: Extremely biased towards any Alien possibility and directing research only in that direction ignoring any evidence to the contrary as if it doesn't even exist.


Again, painting all UFO "believers" with a broad brush. Again, almost every respected UFOlogist or hobbiest will look for the most plausable terrestrial explanation first, and only turn to a possible alien origin if the evidence of the case warrants it. The reason is simple, the majority of sightings ARE mistaken terrestrial causes. However, if only ONE case is genuinely alien visitation, that's all it takes to validate.



6: Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even 5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation offered as a cover up.


First, coverups are a FACT. The government has repeatedly been caught in them, most demonstrated in the Roswell case. Regardless of WHAT you believe crashed there (Mogul or spaceship), the FACT remains that the military did indeed plant a cover story of a weather balloon. Former coverup specialists such as Ed Ruppelt (Blue Book) and Hynek (Duran Report) have also come forward about coverup efforts.

It's not really even a well kept secret. The paperwork trail illustrates the early beginnings, who was involved, the creation of commitees, programs of study (Sign, Grudge, etc.). We have, and continue to keep, other secrets for the same period of time.



7: Connecting UFOs with psychics, channellers and other unscientific occult practises. If you want UFOs taken seriously why make it even more wacky it doesn't help and I don't believe you.


This I'll grant you. It's unfortunate that these individuals are chosen by the press to represent the field, in preference of degreed scientists, physicists, military officers, and others with credentials who seriously address the subject. These individuals do more harm to the field than any horde of debunkers.



8: Name calling and ridiculing seems common to anyone who had a different view I don't really mind this but it isn't exactly proving their case to me.


This is largely the tool of debunkers more than believers. However, since some believers start to equate UFOlogy with religion, it is little wonder they get emotional in defending it. This too, is of no help, and also seriously harms the UFO community.



I keep using the religious analogy when it comes to the Alien UFO supporting crowd but it really seems that way to me they are preaching beliefs with no evidence and are clearly very emotionally attached to the Aliens are the only possibility mindset.


There's that sweeping statement again. NO evidence? No, there is plenty of evidence...some of it is excellent, some of it is good. Some of it is crap. There wouldn't be such an interest in it if there wasn't some supporting arguments and evidence, and there are volumes of it. That said, there are also volumes of crap as well.



UFO is exactly what it claims to be Unidentified flying object I fail to see any connection to Alien spacecraft which is the first jump of logic to many of you. I think if I've learned anything it is to not take UFO reports very seriously when some people see every light in the sky as Aliens it makes all reports less convincing as a whole.


You can blame the press for that, not the UFOlogy community. The press is the one who uses the terms "UFO" and "Aliens" interchangably. At this point, it's simply pop-culture now to do so. This does NOT mean that anyone talking about UFOs is automatically making the leap to alien craft. As I've mentioned, this is a last conclusion, not the first.



I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.


Amongst the stories of conversations via telepathy with aliens, Prophet Yahweh, and yada-yada-yada, there are plenty of posts right here on ATS presenting solid evidence and amazing cases with plenty of evidence. Up to the individual to separate the wheat from the chaff, but blaming those who devote serious research to the subject, for the Lacerta files, Billy Meiers, and Adamskis of the field, is really assigning blame where it doesn't belong.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by selfless

Originally posted by pmexplorer
this opened my eyes
www.youtube.com...


Hello pmexplorer,

Do you know where i can get the download of this video? i got a 56k and it would take forever to stream it.


Im sorry thats the only link I have but if i come across any other download I will post it for you.
For everyone else this is a comprehensive account by US military staff of their experiences with UFOS while doing their jobs. Im sure this has been posted many times on ATS before as it is a couple of years old I think, it is worth watching, Im not saying it is a definitive answer to the question do ufos/ets exist but it certainly is groundbreaking in that the people in this video are all from different high ranking military backgrounds, they range from young to old and all give extremely detailed accounts of their experiences aswell as promising to swear under oath should they ever be asked to, to support the claims they make.
Imho, it is well worth viewing.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by pmexplorer]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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the battle of LA should give you something to debunk.

see f-ex. www.abovetopsecret.com...

tell me which earthly power produced that object, which clearly absorbed the AAA searchlights' beams in 1941.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by selfless

Originally posted by pmexplorer
this opened my eyes
www.youtube.com...


Hello pmexplorer,

Do you know where i can get the download of this video? i got a 56k and it would take forever to stream it.


You can download it from google videos if you got google video player. See if it works.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by InSaneTK

You can download it from google videos if you got google video player. See if it works.


Unfortunately google video downloads are not 56k friendly, it doesn't work it says it will start downloading in 1 day.


Edited: still getting used to the quoting.

[edit on 10-10-2006 by selfless]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be.
[edit on 10-10-2006 by masqua]

Mod Edit: CAP title

[edit on 10-10-2006 by kinglizard]


You just shot yourself in the foot right there. Reread what you wrote and then tell me that you make any sense. You believe there is aliens in the universe but since YOU do not have solid proof that there is no way they are coming here? Sounds a bit like a selfish rant to me.



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Sophismata
I hestitate to respond to you as you appear to be abusive, but your claims here are not substantiated. The only way you'd be able to tell how big something is would be by having another camera for a stereoscopic view. If I hold my thumb out at night and close one eye, I can cover the moon. Does that mean my thumb is as big as the moon?


If the "sharply detailed" moon is seen behind your thumb, as are the UFOs depicted behind the teather, then the moon could be just as big... if not BIGGER than your comparatively equal-sized thumb. Your failing to acknowledge that the UFOs actually pass behind the teather though, when the objects' edges (no matter how unfocused the objects in general appear) are as detailed & sharp as a strip of barbed-wired razors, is pretty ignorant & lame. It's kinda' like showing you a picture of an elephant, and then being told that said elephant was nothing more than a giant, mutated rat with an extended nose, instead. I often wonder if the people who ardently believe that a heap of identical, "pulsing" dust particles passing behind a 12 mile long object suffer from compulsive myopia... or partial retardation, even. I really do.


As for being behind the tether - there is no evidence of that. It is quite common for out-of-focus blurs of close objects to to appear to be behind a much brighter, CCD-saturating object in the distance (such as the tether). So, while I see notched halos from out-of-focus dust, you see alien spacecraft that are miles in diameter and just happen to be oriented flat with respect to the camera location. I wonder which is more likely..


Good question - which IS more likely; a 2-3 mile dust particle, or a UFO that's actually been spotted IN Earth's atmosphere before: in several different countries, by several different people, with several different video cameras? Hmmm, i'm stumped.

I mean surely, the dust particle(s) in question couldn't have appeared hovering over an English woman's house in 2001: www.youtube.com..., and then reappeared the following day in the same spot during daylight hours: www.youtube.com.... A similar dust particle was also seen in the infamous Derbyshire/Bonsall incident in 2002, which was not very far from the dust particle we just finished seeing. Naaah... dust particles are just... dust.

But... the very same dust-particle apparently re-appeared in Israel one day too... whoa, what a weird coincidence: www.ufodigest.com...

And... wait just a minute, is that a similar-looking dust particle hovering stationary over Melborne, Aus?: www.youtube.com...

By god, are those dust particles sneaky. I mean, they all appear to have notches etched out near their rims, they all have holes carved out in their centers, and they all share a mysterious "pulsing" property when visible to the naked eye. And not to mention, they tend to like making random appearances within our atmosphere from time to time, in several different countries.

Those dust particles must have minds of their own!

*sigh*

Deductive reasoning, pattern recognition & common sense. Marvelous wonders may succumb if all three are used efficiently.













[edit on 10-10-2006 by fyodor]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Shamanator
I have been observing a lot of the arguments used by the usual UFO fan boys on the boards here and have noticed the following arguments used in every case.

1: Trying to prove a Alien UFOs by a process of elimination using the same faulty reasoning I could
claim all UFOs must be Dragons.


True dat.


Originally posted by Shamanator

2: Believing that a lot of unconvincing cases are as good evidence as 1 airtight case. They are not.



Agreed, that happens a lot, showing obscured photoshoped picture that sort of shows some guy kind of with slit pupil eyes. Thats proof for you


Originally posted by Shamanator

3: Trying to make unbelievers disprove visiting Aliens don't exist. There is no way to prove anything
doesn't exist if I was to claim Invisible Dragons exist no one can disprove me. The burden of
proof should be on whoever is making the far out claims.



True


Originally posted by Shamanator

4: Making Arguments that are impossible to prove in science and disregarding current science as
wrong to make them . For example wormholes, FTL travel and anything else they have seen in
the latest movie.



Current science has a lot of limitations. Its not as infaliable as some would belive. Though just because 'something more' exists, doesn't mean every single crazy idea has merit because of the inaccuracys or ignorance of the standard science.


Originally posted by Shamanator

5: Extremely biased towards any Alien possibility and directing research only in that direction
ignoring any evidence to the contrary as if it doesn't even exist.



Everyone should keep a open mind, but a group focused on something would logicaly research something that supports a hypotheis or idea it has. IE a cryptozoology group would tend to look for a cryptid monster.


Originally posted by Shamanator

6: Believing that a Government full of constantly changing individuals could hide something
potentially dangerous for over 50 years. Could anyone on Earth keep a secret like that for even
5 years I seriously doubt it. Also it seems that they take everything reasonable explanation
offered as a cover up.



The whole idea is pretty flamboyantly everywhere, so it is not covered up compleatly at all. The fact is, we are talking about it right now. They don't realy need to because people have and report first hand expeirences, and photographs, but still are dismissed. Is their something more then that, that would somehow convince people even more.


Originally posted by Shamanator

7: Connecting UFOs with psychics, channellers and other unscientific occult practises. If you want
UFOs taken seriously why make it even more wacky it doesn't help and I don't believe you.



A lot of alien beings exist on dimensions higher then we are (the 4th dimension). And reports of them go into mysitical or psycic things. One person saw one lifting a huge peice of metal weighing a ton with its mind. Subjects spoken to with aliens often go into stuff like God, unknown history of humanity, and many other things very much not 'secular'. Judging from real accounts and ideas, not hollywood, aliens are very much not at all some sort of concreate beings living purely on the 3ed dimension like we do, and purely having olny technological or physical powers. Not one has ever said to my knowlage something along the lines of "Their is no God, anything spirital or psycic doesn't exist it is all, thats all supersistion, everything is done though technology".

Logicaly if something is technologicaly adanced enough to travel here from who knows how far away. They would spirital, or and psycic powers and wisdom to match techological knowlage.

Being beings often on a different dimension that explains why quite a bit of physical proof is lacking, or that a lot of the stuff can not be veryfied by science. It goes hand in hand.

Despite some peoples wishes aliens don't quite secularize themselves to fit a view of no spirital or psyicic powers. "oh no have to stop using telepathy because someone doesn't belive in it, my existance must be purely shown as technological and physical". Their whole existance is dissagreed and disputed, along with what they do and say. Now if that means that they don't exist just because someone doesn't like it I would say naight, if they exist they exist. Just because someone doesn't agree with the fact that the world orbits the sun, doesn't mean the sun and earth will change their oribit. All of the books, experts, and athoratys can enforce the idea of the sun orbiting the earth, does this truely change anything other then promoting the continuing the ignorance of humanity, not realy. People progress at their own pace, no matter how slow it is as a whole.

Of course this is basing off a lot of accounts people have had, but some general things keep poping up. Peat and repeate if something keeps proping up it points to something.


Originally posted by Shamanator

8: Name calling and ridiculing seems common to anyone who had a different view I don't really
mind this but it isn't exactly proving their case to me.



I am not familiar with this particularly with 'the alien crowd' bashing the non-belivers. But anysort of namecalling is not quite good or civil.



Originally posted by Shamanator

UFO is exactly what it claims to be Unidentified flying object I fail to see any connection to Alien spacecraft which is the first jump of logic to many of you. I think if I've learned anything it is to not take UFO reports very seriously when some people see every light in the sky as Aliens it makes all reports less convincing as a whole.



That is true too, people often say UFO when they are clearly talking about aliens. UFO is by its definition what you just said. Could be a flying cosmic ball of energy, or a dragon. If its far enough away unidentified then it is a UFO, and it could be anything.

Also people say things are UFO's when they have clearly identified them as a alien spacecraft. Its not unidentified when you have just identified it : P

The inaccuracys of speach. Humanitys ignorance spans the number of stars in the s

[edit on 10-10-2006 by jazz_psyker]



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:08 PM
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I am now more convinced than ever while there may be aliens in the universe somewhere they are not visiting here. If there was real solid evidence I would consider it but I think we all really know there isn't and never will be


I wonder if the American Indians thought that....(before the arrival of Columbus' ships anyhow....)

"There may be other people across the ocean, but we'll never see them."

"Hey, what's that?"
(as the ship's mast rises from the horizon)....



posted on Oct, 10 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Yet again I have sat through some videos in hope.

The"Shocking! US government staff confirm UFOs are real" video speakers look like a Star Trek convention. There is constant mention of proof and evidence but very little shown.

The other vids fair badly too IMHO.

I would like to believe we are not alone, no proof here, though.

People want to believe based on this sort of stuff then thats fine with me, I guess my burden of proof must be higher...

I still see no solid proof ot there. Dodgy "Ant and Dec" autopsy videos, crazies claiming aliens come all this way to make love to them, grainy, dodgy photos / videos and crazy unreliable witnesses. Most evidence seems to have alternative explanations and even if it does not that dont mean there aint an alternative view.

I think that when you look at the kooks associated with this field, if you were a rational intelligent person, you would not come forward for fear of association...

What I am constantly amused by is the attacks on unbelievers by believers that is similar to the attack by paranormal believers on skeptics. Considering that both causes are always going on about peace and a better world, their responses can be quite aggressive.

People are thinking about ET interstellar neighbour when they should be looking at their crack smoking, burgling neigbour. Thats where the real danger is.....well and Bush I suppose



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