Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

You raise a point that I never get tired of hearing. There are Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, no? They live under the same opression as the Palestinian and Lebanese Muslims, no? So why then are there no Palestinian or Lebaneses Christian suicide bombers?

Thanks for taking the first step into understanding Islam. Next time you read the Quran, let's discuss the surrahs again and have a logical discussion on them.

Look up the 'Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine' (PFLP). It's led by a Christian leader.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

No, not correct.

Shooting at roadblocks is something the neither you or I - who are not in a volatile situation like Iraq can understand nor criticise.

If you were in the soldiers shoes, trying to get to your goal and there was a roadblock in the way that could have explosives, or armed insurgents hidden - what would you do?

Ask them nicely to move, then stand around patiently waiting for them to comply?

Raping ANYBODY let alone 14 year old girls is disgusting behaviour and I do not condone it in any way.

The problem here is you are doing what you accuse me of doing - generalising the entire group based on the actions of the bad few. Not all of the soldiers in Iraq rape little girls - just like not all Muslims are terrorists.

As for bombing houses, that is a tragedy. However the US led forces also recognise this as a tragedy and do not intentionally try to do this.



Just like anything the noble civilian targeting, glory seeking, suicide bombing terrorists call anything THEY do Liberating or defending (their religion of course). Its all about perception and belief. The US believes its doing the right thing. Just like the terrorists believe they are doing the right thing.



Amatuers relying on news sources for the count? Come on man - BOTH sides of politics has criticised those guys.



Yes they were captured - by a NON STATE, TERRORIST orgisation. Its not like the Lebanese government and military captured the soldier - which would have been one Sovereign nation at war with another. It was A TERRORIST group that was not sanctioned by the nation it was operating from, kidnapping a member of the armed forces from a SOVEREIGN NATION!

It was not up to Hezbollah to deal with the Israeli military, it was up to the Lebanese Government and their dimplomats and their soldiers.



I did actually, The Australian had a news bite saying something like the Israeli and Palestinian government had nearly worked out a deal.



Ok so we both agree that was necessary.



If only it were that simple - what are we supposed to do, give up?



Ok so we both agree that the reason for going to war in Iraq was BS.

hey we agree on more than I thought



As I said, I dont agree with going to war in Iraq - however I have nothing but 100% support for our soldiers that are there, who are simply doing what they are told.



Well, Im an aussie - and we havent started any wars or had any genocides yet. And for that, Im glad.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

Half minded, what you went through, the terror, the uncertainty of yours and your loved ones survival. What you experienced, was what it was like to be an Iraqi. You suffered for it for a few weeks, they lived it, or died it, 24/7. Granted things could be better, but the Iraqis were always going to have to fight for thier freedom. Thats just the way it works, "from time to time the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots" As long as we keep our comittment however, they will be able to come out the other end. As bad as things are, or seem to be, Progress is being made. And most of those dying in Iraq, are dieing from IED's, not JDAM's. The people as ever are caught in the middle, and must decide, as individuals the fate of thier nation. WHile they do so, we will continue to support them.

The PFLP is Marxist-Leninist, not Christian. I'm fairly certain that Marxism is not a big advocate for religion, let alone Christianity.

The group was being led by a Christian named George Habash.

I managed to find out that his parents were Greek Orthodox.

Still, thats ONE organisation thats led by (not totally consisting of) a christian vs. the many led by (and consisting solely of) muslims.

It seems the group had more political and social goals in mind from what I can find.

Yup. Absolutely no Christian agenda. I bet once Habash became a Marxist he never stepped foot in a church again.

See the problem arises, when you check out the situation in Iraq and you see, as we established later and agreed upon - that the reasons for Invasion of Iraq were completly FALSE and actually the real weapons of mass deception against the public of this Planet, as they all turned out to be a complete bag of crap. So, we have US and other Coalition soldiers in Iraq, which was torn apart by an Illegal Invasion, which means they are also ILLEGALLY occupying a foreign country and are treated as enemies by one or many sides there.

So a soldier standing at a checkpoint is doing what? Defending Freedom? Defending Demoracy? What is he doing there? He was sent to war based on a pack of Lies and Deceptions, and now he has to react a sheety situation, like a suspecious car approaching the checkpoint, based on his training; which ofcourse is a very warrior-like code, which soldiers dare not to break and always obey to follow orders. But that is not their fault, but the blame is on the Greedy and utter Corrupt politicians who sent them there to Hell, to stand and try to get out alive, and not kill so many innocent bystanders, which is a tough job to do.


Yes not all soldiers rape, but how are they being Punished then later? How is the US Military helping them, to escape their convictions? All I see is, a Above the Law Country, marching in a complete Law-Less country, and none of the things they do, which counts as a violation of International Laws, Geneva Conventions and Basic Human Rights, will NOT be presented in a Court of Law as Evidence. The Noble US Army will never been seen as the Enemy or as the Bad Guy - why is that?


What do you mean by he US believes its doing the right thing?

You mean the current US Goverment?

Or the People of United States?

Well, how come Bush Ratings are At All-Time Low?


Care to show me any other Example of a Group of people, who devoted their time to give People of Iraq something that US Military did not do. You know how that looks like? As if Iraqi people are not Human, since we do not care how many of them die each and every day, since we do not do bodycounts on their casualties. So basicly, the US Army does not care at all for the Wellbeing and Security of Iraqi People. Imagine your Cops in the neighbourhood doing the same? How would that make you feel, if a situation broke out and Cops would come around your home and say; We Shall Only Do Bodycounts for our MEN!


I am sorry, but Hizb'allah was, DEMOCRATICLY ELECTED in Southern Lebanon and earned 23 seats in Parlament? Well they are ofcourse treated as a TERRORIST group by almost all the Western agencies and goverments. The real problem is, that Terrorism is actually not a tool of the Weak and Powerless - but of the STRONG and POWERFULL. Israeli is a Supreme Terrorist State, conducting acts of Terror and breaking International Law for decades, but nobody actually does anything to stop them. They are ofcoures - DEFENDING themselves; but you can not defend yourself while occupying another mans land. That is a contradiction.

Remember Gaza Strip? A piece of Land which was taken in 1967 from the people of Palestine, given back (kindof)? You know who is the power there? Hamas - which was also DEMOCRATICLY Elected by the people of Palestine.

And I thought US wants DEMOCRACY in Middle East - well there you have it.

It was not up to Hezbollah to deal with the Israeli military, it was up to the Lebanese Government and their dimplomats and their soldiers.

Just because a political party has won seats in parliament, does not mean they can arm their followers and create a pseudo army that goes around capturing foreign soldiers!

The only recognized Military Force a country has is its Armed forces, which does not owe allegiance to any one political party. (unless your talking about a dictatorship like Sadaams Iraq pre invasion) it owes allegiance to the government and the people.

NOw those soldiers werent captured by the Lebanese Armed Forces, they were captured by the Military Wing of the HEzbollah Political Party who did it to further their own political agenda!

Didn't you want Demoracy in Middle East?

A Military Wing has won seats in Parlament - what does that tell you?

That the People of Southern Lebanon are With them - you know why?

If you want to find out the roots of Hizb'Allah, you should check out what happened back in 1982 in Southern Lebanon - under the Brave and Valiant Military Intervention by the IDF, which was ofcourse yet again Defending itself?

Israel Creates their Own Enemies by doing what they are doing for decades.

And you know what? The people are supporting this Terrorists.

Why is that?


What if Armed Forces can not Protect you and your Family?

Who would you trust?

As you can see - if you follow the Crisis in Middle East - the oeople here more according to the Tribal Law then to any other Law; as you see, in some places in Iraq people trust local Militias for protection, since the Iraqi Defence Forces or any Coalition troops can not provide them safety.

So you think in Lebanon it is any different?


Exactly.

You want to know how many Lebanese Prisoners are in Israeli Prisons?

A little bit more then Two or Three members.

But yet again - if IDF soldiers were Kidnapped by Hizb'Allah - a military wing in control of Southern Lebanon, why the the IDF waged war against an Entire Country and its Infrastructure and above all, its CIVILIANS?

Let's not even start to list all the International Laws and Geneva Convetions and Human Rights broken here by the IDF, which was ofcourse Defending itself from the Running Lebanese Civilians and littered some places with Cluster Bombs for decades to come.

Who's Political Agenda was shown here?

A little bit of Scouting the Territory before the Next Phase of the War in Middle East.

i didnt realize that the aussies had asked the tasmanian people to politly move to some other unknown location or maybe it was genocide??i cant remember

I would just like to point out there is a big difference between someones relgious affiliation and what they do. Just becasue someone is a christian does not mean that everything they do refelcts christanity.

For example in teh catholic church they Confession is there to fogrive the sins of the penatant. Sins do not go in line with catholic teachings but catholics commit them daily. That does not mean that the acts are thoes that reflect the church. Somone commiting the sin of pre maratail sex as a catholic does not show catholic values but their relgious affiliation may be catholic.

The issues at hand are if someone commits some heinous act in the name of relgion.

For example. Bush is a christian but the awr in Iraq is not a "christian war"

If I was to commit some act of violence and I am a catholic that does not mean my catholisim has made me commit the violence. However if I say I am murdering this person in the name of Jesus Christ because they have done such and such.. then that reflects my personal catholic stance. (this is an example again and in no way reflects the teachings of the Catholic Church)

If I was to start a political movement I would not consider it a christian movement and if anyone did label it that simply becasue I was a christian then I would say tehy got it wrong.

Dont blame something someone does on their relgion unless they actively state it is for the relgion. For most people relgion is not something that makes their every decision and move.

Like puting down the seeds of hatred.


No, but it sure helps him to justify what he does.


What about The Inquisition?


No, but it makes up far most of their excuses.

R e l i g i o n - is the excuse par exellence for most atrocities commited throughout the History of Man.
In these times of havoc a new crusade might come handy for some people. See the following link to BBC.




[edit on 18/9/06 by khunmoon]

Yes I think democracy is important anywhere.



No, A POLITICAL PARTY has won seats in Parliament. That does not give them the right to form their own Militia! I can not see how you justify that - could you imagine if the Republicans decided that because they had a few Senators and Congressmen, they would Arm their followers and form a Pseudo Militia that went around commiting violent acts to further their agenda?

Say for example they decided to go and capture the border guards from Mexico because they wanted to stop illegal immigrants coming over the border and they felt the Mexican guards werent doing enough to stop it.

Now this isnt the American Armed forces doing it - ITS MEMBERS OF A POLITICAL PARTY who have guns, and are doing it to further their own agenda. How would all of the Democrats, and the Greens and the other minor party supporters feel about this? How would the Average American citizen feel about this?

See my point?



Yes they support them POLITICALLY, there is a Political wing of Hezbollah and a Militant wing of hezbollah - the Political Wing is the one who runs candidates for seats of Parliament.

What about the people who dont support Hezbollah? Is it fair that a political party and its followers get to make decisions that impact on the entire country independently frmo the government when they dont have a majority? Hell no!



Some people are supporting them - it does not justify them having a NON STATE militant group that carries out attacks against a SOVERIGN STATE's armed forces that lead to the destruction of their country. LIke I've said before - Hezbollah is NOT THE LEBANESE MILITARY - they are armed followers of a political party.

And do you ever stop to think how many people REALLY support these Machine gun wielding maniacs? How safe would you feel supporting another candidate (if they are brave enough to run for parliament) when you are surrounded by fanatical political party members with guns?

It makes a big differnece when you are handed a 'How to Vote' card by someone holding a machine gun....



Protect them from what? Were Israel and Lebanon even bothering each other before those Hezbollah terrorists captured the soldiers? Sure in the past there has been problems - but tell me - was Israel shelling Lebanon before it happened?



NOT fanatical members of a POLITICAL PARTY (because like or not thats what Hezbollah is now) that have decided to arm themselves and cause trouble!



SO WHAT - they were captured by the ISRAELI ARMED FORCES!!! Not a few a members of a political party with guns!



Because it is WRONG for the militant terrorist wing of a political party to control ANY part of a country (Imagine the Republicans blockading Texas??) so they can attack a sovereign state. And I'm sorry but as soon as those 'civilians' picked up guns or supported Hezbollah in doing what they were doing, they were not 'civilians' they were terrorists.



No please, list a few for me. I would love to know what Geneva Conventions were broken here.



Hezbollahs - they attacked Israel so Israel would attack back, knowing they could rely on doctored photos (it has been proven) and staged scenarios to increase their support base in the South of Lebanon.

Democracy is not the better system, it's not working, look at our government, the governments of the west... corrupt! Do you really want to export that? And of course, it's not democracy we export, it's puppetry under democracy.

Off the trail again, Ezekiel! (and others)
Re-read the name of this thread, and move your discussions to the forum of the Middle East Conflict.

...and by the way, re-read the Geneva Convention - if you ever read it.

Interesting point, Vitchilo.


[edit on 19/9/06 by khunmoon]

I know that the athiests still call themselves infidels. Christians still use the terms:
infidel, heathen, pagan, neopagan, hedonist, witch, unbeliever, Freethinker, Deist, Atheist, Sceptic, Agnostic, and a whole host of other descriptive terms. It depends on the subject, really.


Of course there are. You've got crazies in every place on this plannet. A lot of times the Irish conflict is the Catholic Irish agaisnt the Protestant Irish....but no one wants to think about that. But, in thier case, they are only after one nation, not after a whole world.
Yes, they were tolerant. They didn't proclain jihad on the whole world until recently.


Then it is time to "spank the child and beat the boy", no?

That wasn't a nice comment. This type of comment is an extremist comment, and puts you in the same class as well. You know you aren't an extremeist, so one or two comments in an extreme manner doesn't make you an extremist. I personally believe that the only way to get rid of this fighting is to get rid of the Musslims entirely, but I'm not going to do it, or even pretend to think about it.

I'd make a simple statement with lots of scripture pointing out how wrong that statement is, and them be told by the whole world that I'm a whining 2 year old.

And here comes a crapper full of ignorance:
He was banished from his family, and cursed, with a mark upon his forehead, so that way others would not kill him. This is also a part of the Bible accepted by the Musslim faith.

Taken out of context. The child was never killed. He was the child of the promise, and God was seeing (making a point about something) if Abraham would still believe in the promise when this was the only thing God had ever given him as a direct sign of that fulfilment was taken away. In fact, throughout much of the Bible, when you come upon child killing as sacrifice, it's condemned, and the people left to hell. Again, a part accepted by the musslims.

No, it wasn't. You act as if something is reported in scripture, that it automatically meant it was good. The Bible never really makes an apology for evil people. It pointed out what they did, and left it at that, no justification. The only applause in Christendom over the crucifix is the empty tomb that was there, 3 days later. It was a fulfilment to prophecy. Killed on a tree, his bones wern't broken (traditionally, you break the leg bones after about 6 hours to speed up the death), his side was pierced and flowed blood and water (since the blood was seperated, he had to have been dead for a bit, and couldn't have fainted), and a whole host of other prophecies, that have to do with niggling litle points that you know nothing about unless you go through a whole crucifixion, historically.

It wasn't. His own people turned on him, and that's why he fled.

Of course violence is throughout the scriptures. Violence, in and of itself is not evil, it is the direction it's applied. At the same time, much of the violence in the scripture was not condoned...nor was it condemned. Some of the volence that you caused could be the reason to put you to death...and sometimes, you were rewarded for it. Context is everything.

To top this off, there were times when the violence was not condoned, but the one who committed the volence was forgiven. (Saul/Paul).

Only those with death tinted glasses don't get the context of most of the violence. Pointing out any violence in any religion without a benefit of why the violence is happening, is dangerous. Violence, in and of itself, isn't the issue. Otherwise, I'd not be able to tolerate any sport...like Rugby, Football, Ice Hockey.....

I give the Musslims that much room. If the violence, when wrong, is labled as wrong, then I don't care that you can read about it.

Dinah, the daugher of Israel was raped by a local man, and her brothers killed the man, not her. Those two brothers were cursed by Israel, to boot. Dinah wasn't condemned.

Look at the long line of immoral women in Jesus' lineage.
Look at the woman at the well.
Look at the woman in the situation we get the quote "Let those among you without sin cast the first stone."
Immoral women who wern't killed.

So, what is up with honor killings?

There's an even bigger point that I'll make if you IM me, butI'm not going to do that here.

That's every issue in life. The majority don't care until someone they know stirrs them up to a mob mentality.


How about they are the only groups(s) that caught our attention on our soil and on our allies' soil?
America shouldn't be fighting a religion if ther is a "seperation of church and state" unless they brought themselves to our attention.
And it's not like "christian groups" haven't been attacked by our governemnt in MY LIFETIME. I don't like the Waco incident, but it was a fringe "christian" group, as was the militia up in Idaho, what, a year later, was it? WITH LESS PROVOCATION than the muslim gropus. Don't tell me that extremist Christians who are American Citizens don't get attacked by our government. (And I believe Waco needed to happen, don't get me wrong. The other one I don't agree with.) I was a child watching this. I'm not that old. How can we forget what happened in our own lifetime?

I don't think of him a s aChristians...any time you see me put the word Christian in quotes, I'm thinking of a pseudo-christian, and Bush is a "christian" The issue is he doing this FOR the cause of Christ or for the cause of America. Yes, we are a "christian" nation. Most of our people don't fight this for a "christian"cause, for all our relgious quoting.

VERY IMPORTANT: We don't want to remember Hitler. When we forget, hisotry repeats itslef, and it gets worse every time it repeats.

There is a lot of news about this. But hear is one in particuler that I came across.


Sorce Page

So to show there rage over a statment quoted from a figuer some five hundred years ago or so, saying that Islam is violent and spred by the sword, they go and kill a sixty five year old nun who had devoted her life to helping people in Africa.

Yes that will really show how wrong the Pope was in his remark.

Does any one else see the hypocrisy in this?