Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

Excellent post borg, I wish more people felt that way about this situation we all find ourselves dealing with.


Again Excellent post.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by the_sentinal]

Well don't say anything as you have added nothing to this thread with your totally immature and offensive comments.


I await the day when every day catholics start burning effigies (sp?) of people that insult their religion, could start with the creators of South Park............ Oh wait a minute 21st Century Catholics arn't mental and don't have such thin skin, if they did then this world would be in kaos as a billion people protest every day over another attack on their religion.

Edit : typo



[edit on 17/9/06 by tkmelb]

ya know, from all the hoopla over this, you'd think the pope openly attacked the islamic religion or something.

the speech is here...

www.cwnews.com...

it's an interesting read, about how logos, reason, was introduced and given a place in religion.... if it is unreasonable for a god of love to tell his followers to go and kill the infidels, or the witches, or whatever, than more than likely, it isn't God telling them such things. the philosophy in this speech is rather deep, and in places he lost me, but it seems to be more of a call for religion, and the sciences to come closer together....Islam had very little to do with it. He just started is with a story about a christian and Muslim debating issues, where the christians tells him that he thinks it's unreasonable to convert people to a religion with threats and coercion, and that the christian religion believes that in the beginning there was logos (reason) and the word....and this is how conversions should be done, with words and reasons, not force and coercion. this muslim seems to have felt that God wasn't constrained by anything and could act as unreasonably as he wished.

why would fellow christians listen to the pope,are u saying that fellow muslims listen to bin laden,generalising!!!

Yes

The Pope needs to step down off of his “High horse”. The fact he quoted Manuel II Palaiologos, shows the lack of historical knowledge he has. This man [and I use the term lightly] was not exactly a Saint. He was a Byzantine Emperor and of course being Christian and from this era it was more than likely he would have a negative view-point of the Islamic Religion along with many others. It is as smart as quoting Hitler on the rights of Jews.

The Islamic Religion and the Christian Religion did not meld well with one another. If people would bother to read things such as the Qu’ran, they would know that Mohammed was forced from Mecca to Medina by Jewish and Christian authorities who viewed his new religion as heresy. Furthermore, the Byzantine Empire had been loosing war after war at this point to the Ottoman Empire. Many Christians thus tried to paint Islam as having a pact with the “devil” and other such groups to negatively portray them. This is who the Pope quoted and I am sure if it was someone such as Bin Laden quoting a Muslim Historical Leader who condemned Christianity there would be just as many people angry from the Christian community.

shots, you used to add something to debates but the post:


Is stupid at best. The Pope was free to say this, nobody forced him to say it nor did anyone stop him. The Islamic Groups are also free to say “We don’t like what you said.” That or one group gets silenced and that isn’t fair on either. However, I have never felt any Muslim stop me from having freedom to say what I want nor have I met any Muslim’s who were not willing to say what they felt.

However, just because some Islamic Nation’s limit the freedoms of its people is by no way to make attacks against the whole of the Religious community. There are also Non-Islamic Nation’s which limit the freedoms of its people - North Korea for example. Thus, it can’t be blamed solely on Islam nor does every Islamic Country limit the freedoms of its people. So the argument you use is flawed.

Ezekiel, you seem to be making out as though Christianity stopped oppressing people long ago. This isn’t true at all. In fact, there are Christian groups in the United State’s who target abortion clinics in a violent way. There are Christian groups in Africa which force people into arranged marriages, who murder people because they have had sexual relations outside of marriage. Furthermore, do you forget that Hitler was a believer in what is known as: Positive Christianity? That’s very much recent History, especially to people in Europe.

XphilesPhan, do you forget the riots in Nigeria by Christians this year? Resulting in the deaths of several Muslims? They also violently riot.

ThinksYouAreAnIdiot, there is no quote in the Qu’ran where Mohammed shows Arabic Muslims as superior to Black and White Muslims. These views were added decades after and by Religious Scholars. There views are not accepted by the vast majority of Muslims. Furthermore, I challenge you to show where in the Qu’ran these views of superiority are displayed.

As per-normal, Souljah raises a good point. Where is the War on Terrorism? Every so called terrorist group that they have gone after have been Islamic. I’ve yet to see them go after those in parts of Africa who are Christian. Why is it Islamic Nation’s are being attacked? Why is it they are the ones constantly painted as the “evil” side in this conflict when the whole view is subjective. If you are in the firing line of an Israeli shell, terrorist or not then you would not think they are the “Good” side of this conflict and it is utterly ridiculous for people on this side to decide what is right or wrong when they try and use heavily misleading historical evidence. If you are the one loosing family members, those killing them will more often then not be seen as “evil”. Even after World War Two, there were people in Germany [and still now] who resent things such as the bombing of Dresden. It is just a shame that history is painted by the victors and we’re never able to get every piece of information that exists.

People need to think for a long moment. Those of you who are from the United State’s, remember how you felt on 9/11. This will be the feeling many Iraqi’s got when you invaded and killed members of their family and called them collateral damage. It is the feeling the Lebanese get when an Israeli kills one of their citizens. It is the feeling the Israeli gets when Hamas blow up and kill some of their citizens. It was the feeling the British got when Irgun killed some of their soldiers.

You are not the only people who get hurt. However, it is on a scale unimaginable to you in Iraq, Afghanistan and many other Nation’s. You can try and paint the blame off on the terrorists - however, would those terrorists in Iraq be there if it wasn’t for the United State’s? Of course not.

Until people realise, all human life lost be it Muslim, Christian or Jew will upset someone who knew them, loved them and cared for them and make them angry. On 9/11 the United State’s called out to get revenge on those who caused the attacks and the people wanted it. The same happens to those in Iraq whose family die because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, they have no legitimate army nor way of fighting the United State’s in an open battle thus they will try anything to win. They are no more a terrorist than anyone who picks up a gun for his “nation”. So they kill innocent people? So does the United State’s. Either both sides are terrorists or neither side is.

RedGolem, I suggest you read your own source. The “Twice as Violent” one is almost laughable. Look at it, read over it and then the debate going on below it. Look at what constitutes Qu’ranic violence. The best one he can show is:


That’s the best he can come up with? Let’s pause and think about this source. Does it slap you in the face yet? Oh yes the first line: “who make war”. Thus, if they don’t make war, there’s no violence. Case closed.

This is the violence in the Qu'ran. It's violence, when they are attacked first.

I'm not clear on why people criticize each others religions when their seems to be the basics that spread across all of them [or most of them] There's no point in saying Mohammed brought evil or saying whatever else someone might say in defense. Arguments upon religion is stupid when everyone who is deeply religious still does the following:

1) Pray to their god[s]
2) Try to live their according to their religious guidelines
3) Makes mistakes and try to repent for it

Thus making what different? The names of this god and his prophets? The explanation of how the universe came to be? Look, all bibles were written by man, due to their account of it, therefore being biased and opinionated. The truth lies only in front of your eyes when you remove the ignorance shade.

I just Could not Resist!

Neither could I



Must be going around...

Semper

I like mine Better!



And I think you should put author of this Cartoon also and the Source.

Or did you draw it?

Well I like mine MUCH better!!!

And if you insist,

www.brandonjaynes.com...



Picky picky...

Semper

Guys...

A picture might say one-thousand words, but with a ten-thousand character limit you can write more. Just put your mind to it and all will be well. :-)

There would anger, but not death threats towards their clerics and 70 year old clerics/nuns being gunned down like has happened with this latest Muslim tantrum.





You might want to read a thread I made that had pictures of Muslims waving placards that said "Behead Anyone who insults islam" "Exterminate those who criticise Islam" etc etc. Oh yeah and my favorite, "Freedom go to hell".

Can you HONESTLY say (and remember god is watching) that you have NEVER seen any muslims trying to prevent you from having say after looking at those photos?



Ok, lets look at the abortion clinic scenario. Give me a list of all of the murders/deaths that have resulted from Christian fanatics targeting abortion clinics and Ill give you a list of all the people who have died as a result of MUSLIM fanaticism. Lets start with the 2,800 people from September 11. Gee I think I win already.

Yes christian extremists protest against abortion clinics - however they dont strap bombs to themselves and kill dozens or hundreds or thousands of innocent people.



Yes they were there before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan - oh and what about all of the terrorists in Pakistan? No American forces there - yet PLENTY of Islamic extremists.

I cant wait till the day that people like yourself get into government, act like a bunch of pussy's with the terrorists because its "America's fault" that Islamic Extremists dont value life or diversity, then have the Terrorists throw it all in your face because they dont really care about YOU or your beliefs that we can all exist in harmony and peace.

So it leads to the question, what created terrorism in the first place... and the answer is poverty, dictatorship, bombings of countries, rapes of natural ressources, lack of education and teaching of an extremism islam. Who's the biggest supplier of money to dictatorships, raping natural ressources in others countries and supporting terrorists groups when they want to achieve certains goals? Yeah.

And I can show you pictures of Christian extremists waving placards that say "Thank GOD for September 11th" and such at the funerals of US Servicemen killed in Iraq.

What's your point? Fanatics are, well, fanatics...

[edit on 9/17/06 by xmotex]

In Iraq, more Christians dead or Muslims?
In Palestine, Israel and Jordon...more Christians/Jews dead or Muslims?

I thought Christians were good at math, Jews certainly are.
But why is it whenever you do your head counts you get it wrong...

Israel and the Christian US kill many more Muslims than Muslims killing the Judaeo/Christian...
Leave it to the American Jewish accountant to fix the books...
Bush grew up?

Wake up and learn how to count fingers before pointing them.

namaste

Raphael

Raphael, please don't criticize an entire faith. Being Christian or Jewish will not dictate on how well a person counts. Let's keep this thread insult-free, please.

eventhough i am a universe away from being a supporter of the catholic church /the pope.
He was part of the hitlerjugend and what ????? You would have been aswell given the right birthdate an location .
Being part of the hitlerjugend is not really comparable with being e.g. a high ranking SS officer in charge of a concentration camp.
Almost 12000 luxemburgish men (of a total pop of 293000 at the time, thats 4 % !!!) were drafted in the wehrmacht to fight on the eastern front. Are we a nation of neo-nazi's ????

PLEASE !

The scary thing is....

If the next great holy war comes, will the christians be able to compete with the Islamafascist extremsts?

Can the children of 'Jesus Camp' really handle the sword of Mohammed?

I am an Agnostic American. This back and forth conflict over religion always takes me to an awkward position of not knowing how to support my country.

If the war comes I will fight with the west until this threat of islamic globalisation is taken care of. In a world of necessary evils, Ill put my money, not my faith, on the christian church and government.

Capitalism and Christianity, as inhumane as they are, can still be considered a day at the beach compared to an islamic state.



Muslims havent learned that in order to fight a war or words you need to have words. Provoking god and spitting hellfire rhetoric will keep the nation is islam time locked in the 18th century. Education and tolerance are the only way towards a positive future.

I subscribe to no religion but I will not sit here and accept the jihadist movement through the tolerance of worldly differences. The pope shouldnt compare religions but the Muslims shouldnt become so enraged by his words. I cant believe we are even forced to take these things seriously. I always hoped people could get past these silly conflicts of godly justification.

As I've previously stated, I'm a Christian, but that really has no bearing on what I'd do when/if the US were attacked by some group of extremists. I'd support my country, for no other reason than to insure her security. That has NOTHING to do with what my religious beliefs are; it's merely a statement of fact that I'm not going to sit idly by and allow some group of radicals to come over and dictate how I live, regardless of what religion they profess. I don't do that to them, the government of my country does. Please don't confuse the two.

I love the country of which I am a part, and I'm proud to say that I'll stand side by side with any other US citizen, regardless of religion, to stop anyone from harming any of my fellow citizens. That's what it truly means to be an American, not the holier-than-thou approach to world affairs. It's only when politics gets involved that things get ugly and grey. When the greying of lines of logic starts, then all hope of a clear intent is lost.

It's with a heavy heart that I watch the news everyday, and see people all over the world dying for no good reason. It's not my idea of fun, and if I could make it stop, I would. However, I cannot, or at least not alone. It takes more than one person to make a change. The whole world needs to change paradigms, and soon. Otherwise, we're going to be doomed to repeat the history that we have been for the next 50 years or more.

TheBorg