Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

This is why religion is such a joke. One guy in rome says something and now jihad wants to declare war on christianity as a whole.

They say
'But this isnt what any religion preaches'

And I say
'But this is what happens as A RESULT of religion'

Originally posted by nephyx
This is why religion is such a joke. One guy in rome says something and now jihad wants to declare war on christianity as a whole.

They say
'But this isnt what any religion preaches'

And I say
'But this is what happens as A RESULT of religion'

Well Nephyx what you have said is right, I cant really compleatly dissagree with you. But I do think I can say that I dont see any other religish groops plotting and assassanating sixty five year old nuns. Yes this whole mess can be blamed on religen but does not really seem fair to blame it on all religen.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by RedGolem]

I'd go a step further to say that's the product of a NON-Religion:

Get some history:

Remember tthat video BY muslims that was put up earlier in this thread?
Here
Watch the whole video some other time.

Go directly to 1 hour, 1 minute into the video. It gives you the direct link between Hitler and the Terrorists of this generation. Something I know few of us think about.

Here's an angle:
Basically, this terror is the curse on us from our parents and grandparents for not fighting when there was a wrong, ignoring Hitler until he was close to being a real danger to us...and even further. WWI set up WWII, and could be blamed back a further generation. If this becomes a real WWIII (Something I doubt and pray agianst a lot), we can trace it back to WWII. It's as if the war never ended.

What was Hitler? He was no Christian, and he was not Islamic. He was at most, a Paganist....and was practically in love with Wagner's Ring Cycle (Great composer, but I cringe when listening to his stuff).

I assume you mean Religion. Yes I blame it.

If muslims are the peace loving people they claim to be then why do they let these things occur? Why havent any figureheads of the islamic community get on Television to denounce extremism and Jihad?

The reality of it is that these people arent that different. The reason they wont denounce it is because they all subscribe to the same bathic faith. Religion strips away individualism and throws people into one group with one voice.

This whole situation with the pope is a perfect example of how easy it is for one man to speak on behalf of millions.

This is why people shouldnt subscribe and affiliate themselves with specific faith based religions. ITs common sense for any halfway intelligent person to understand the problems that innevitably arise from the religious divisions of cultures.

WAKE UP PEOPLE.

Originally posted by jlc163

What was Hitler? He was no Christian, and he was not Islamic. He was at most, a Paganist....and was practically in love with Wagner's Ring Cycle (Great composer, but I cringe when listening to his stuff).

What a crock! Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and an altar boy in his youth, and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in that church

Please get your facts straight.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by nephyx]

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Democracy is not the better system, it's not working, look at our government, the governments of the west... corrupt! Do you really want to export that? And of course, it's not democracy we export, it's puppetry under democracy.

But Democracy CAN work, within the proper parameters. I feel that "the spirit of the law" has been bastardised now for some time, and no one seems interested in making it any better. The fact is that the US is not a Democracy; it's a Republic. And as with all republics, they are easily corrupted by those with money.

The natural evolution for a Republic is to gradually fall into an Aristocracy, where the people at large are controlled by those with the money. The next step is for the Aristocracy to become a Senatorial Republic, where the House of Representatives will be abolished, "for the welfare of the People" no doubt. After that, the only step is to a Totalitarian state, where one man, or one very small group of men rules the country, and all in it.

What happens next is anyone's guess, since it hasn't happened yet. If we let history be the guide that it should be, the next change would most likely be a revolt by the People out of disgust for the poor treatment given to them by their supposed well-intentioned rulers. The key will be when the People get tired of the situation.

Should any of that be true, then it's probably only a matter of time until something like that happens. I have hopes that there's a solution out there that will prevent any of that from happening, but I don't remain very optimistic, simply because I know the nature of humans. They like to control others, and it's a staple of politicians in general. I hold out some serious hope for the future though, because a new generation of people that are stongly opposed to war are growing up, and maybe, just maybe, they will be the ones to finally end it, once and for all.

TheBorg

Edited for P.S.

P.S.

As for the topic at hand, since we got seriously sidetracked, I would like to say that Islam as a religion in general, is a peaceful one. I know several Muslims that are exceptionally nice individuals, and I'd sooner converse with them than with some of the supposed Christians that I know. I myself am a Christian, but that doesn't preclude my ability to understand where others get the ideologies that they do. I find it disheartening that there seems to be so much anti-semetism in here, in a group of people that are for the most part a step above and beyond the intellectual level of the normal person. It takes a special kind of person to think as we do, and that's what I think separates us from the rest of the indoctrinated masses.

Will we ever learn to get over the petty squabbles that we are having right now? I don't know. I can only spread what little knowledge I have amongst those willing to listen, and hope for the best. I just pray that everyone listens...

[edit on 19-9-2006 by TheBorg]

Applause to TheBorg, wise words... so very sound.

Yes, Jews, Christians, Muslims, we all become one-eyed. But the last place it should happen should be in a community like this.

As for the People, when they're cornered, left without hope and options, they'll kill their king. Always been like that, always will. The final revolution on this earth is yet to take place.

All I wanna say. Not sidestepping.

-khunmoon-

Originally posted by jlc163
Basically, this terror is the curse on us from our parents and grandparents for not fighting when there was a wrong, ignoring Hitler until he was close to being a real danger to us...and even further. WWI set up WWII, and could be blamed back a further generation. If this becomes a real WWIII (Something I doubt and pray agianst a lot), we can trace it back to WWII. It's as if the war never ended.

Jlc
I have not yet watched the video, but in responce to this all starting in WWtwo. I do agree that the U.S. waiting way to long to do anything about Hitler. And the reason why is because the U.S. had adopted an isolationist policy at that time. I know WW one led to WW two. But to say that WW two has led to the terror the world has now, I just dont know if I can agree that is compleatly correct.

The failer to act before Hitler controled Europe was a mistake, and if you have read more on ats you will find that the U.S. acting as they have is regarded by most to be a mistake. So not acting is a mistake and acting is a mistake, so what do you do to stop terror?

Ok , what would Jesus do .. whould he not try to show the error in the ways of others who where not right with the faith. I for one do not like the catholic church as I do not need a person to be my voice to god , but only me to do so. And the fact that the Chathoilic faith had done in Abraham Lincon is a fact. Thats why they where dispealed from the USA. They did not get a repreave until Ronald Regan said so in the 1980's. But to defend Christ is what all christains must do. As far as Islam which I read the Koran and understand that they will kill you if you do not convert is not the same god that Jesus preached about. So with that said I rather be with Jesus than kill people for not converting. God wants you to come to him. He is not going to nake you do anything that you do not want to do. You have to find him on your own and for the Isalmic side who want to KILL you because you do not want to convert is just wrong. And I might add that while churches did horibal wrongs in the past it is not like that now and to try to say that christians kill is wrong as it is not what Jesus preached about as for we know who are true christains that god will handel the tough parts while we just believe that he will. For he knows what is bad and good , and he knows that things are wrong that happen , lets let him take control , as he is the judge and we are not. Many blessings

Ezekial, there’s a reason why I do not mention the photos - they do not effect me. Let’s take the protests in London, which is where I work and less than 40 minutes from where I live. However, how does a protest stop my Freedom of Speech. You know what - it doesn’t. Just because someone stands there with something saying: “Death to the West”, “Remove Immigrants from the United Kingdom” and any other fascist protest that exists and comment has never bothered me.

Just because someone says something, does not mean it’ll happen. Furthermore, it is the fact that in the United Kingdom they are allowed to vent such anger that it’ll stop it from boiling over. There’s been a proven correlation between oppressive regimes and terrorism[1]. Terrorists are more than likely to stem from places where there is only one viewpoints, either fighting for the regime or attacking the regime in power. Just because a Muslim has stood in a protest and called for my death, has not stopped me going out, not stopped me from going to work. It didn’t stop me going to work when I used to work with a Neo-Nazi, nor did it stop me when I worked with supporters of the British National Party - both of which, want to either kill me or have me removed from the country for having mixed ethnic parents.

As soon as we stop them from having the opinion, we’re no better than North Korea, Saudi Arabia, et al.

My views on Bush and the Republican/Democratic Party in the United State’s is also rather clear. Anyone who voted for the War in Iraq, is as guilty as someone such as Bin Laden. However, President George W. Bush is Commander in Chief and due to this, he has to ask permission from congress to gain additional military support - if he didn’t ask, none of this would have happened. Thus the initial issue falls down on him. Furthermore, the problems with Iraq such as mass murder, attempted genocide of the Kurds was over a decade ago. When it was happening the United State’s had a large support of Islamic Nation’s to help remove Saddam Hussein, the chance to do it was then not in 2003.

Also between 1995 and 2003, the largest number of deaths within Iraq has been attributed to the Food for Oil shambles that the United Nation’s put into place.[2]

Every time, Saddam Hussain was breaking the “Food for Oil” program, it was known by the United State’s. Just like with Nazi Germany the United State’s was linked to helping Iraq remove the Oil, distribute the oil and many American business men got rich off of the backs of the suffering in Iraq. No charges have ever been brought against them and if Iraq was such a terrorist haven the money from the legal oil sales must have gone to support this - thus these business men were indirectly supporting terrorist organizations. If this so called “War on Terror” is real, why have none of these men ever been arrested? Why has the United State’s instead tried to place the blame on other people such as George Galloway? Simple and easy, they do not want to admit who was helping the Iraqi Regime because it will hit too close to home with the current administration.

Or do you forget the New York Times interview with US Senator Carl Levin where he states:

"There is no question that the bulk of the illicit oil revenues came from the open sale of Iraqi oil to Jordan and to Turkey, and that that was a way of going around the oil-for-food program [and that] We were fully aware of the bypass and looked the other way."

If Iraq was arming itself with illegal weapons, it was done so through the lack of the United State’s intervening many years ago. Acting 10 years down the line, is 10 years too late. Furthermore, not listening to renowned experts that invading Iraq would be a catalyst to much larger scale problems will cause more problems for the United State’s than sitting back would have ever done. Iraq was the counter measure to Iran. Iran never was so open about its intentions till Iraq was removed from the picture, because if they did have any chemical weapons it would have caused devastation in Iran. You’ve now set-up Iran to move into the front as the most powerful Islamic Nation.

Also anyone who supports the Bush Regime, be they American, British, Israeli and so on and so fourth is just as guilty.

Maybe this will help you: Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations:

"The United States (government) was not only aware of Iraqi oil sales which violated UN sanctions and provided the bulk of the illicit money Saddam Hussein obtained from circumventing UN sanctions. On occasion, the United States actually facilitated the illicit oil sales."

Even up till the invasion, they concluded. Meaning not only Clinton new about it/his Government, but lovely George W. did too/his Government.

The United states bombed buildings yes - in the pursuit of terrorists and insurgents.

What about all the other reports? Children raped, innocent people shot, torture? It’s all well and good to pass it off as “lies” perpetrated by these Terrorist Groups and without any background knowledge that would be easy enough to believe. However, when you begin to factor things in such as Neo-Nazi groups joining the United State’s Military, painting swastikas and so on and so fourth in Iraq the idea that civilians are being killed because they can get away with it gets a different angle added. Is it hard to believe a Neo-Nazi would kill an Iraq because they can paint him off as a suspected terrorist?

Furthermore, my Anti-American Government stance is heavily justified. The United State’s let alone lies openly to its people, is not only corrupt to the core, not only filled with Religious fanatics more dangerous than any Islamic Militant [which I will come back to later] it goes around buying advert space in Newspapers to make false stories in Iraq. It also goes around creating T.V. Stations such as Alhurra and God alone knows how many more in which propaganda is constantly pumped through.

Yes I do, that’s why I said 'from the Qu'ran and ISLAMIC SCHOLARLY BOOKS'.

The Qu’ran you’ve not read. In fact, the Qu’ran which versions you do not even list next to the quotes. The Qu’ran you can’t read in its true language. So which version are you buying?

And you can speak for every Muslim who has ever read those passages can you?

Well let’s see. I speak some Arabic. I know the Imam in my town. I’ve met the Islamic Council of Britain, Canada and several other Countries. I get regularly invited to events that they hold including being invited to speak at some of them. I’ve published interviews - including ones on this very site from such people. I live in a Muslim Community.

You’ve not even read the Qu’ran. But, you’re at a better standing on Muslims than I am?

That’s like me saying "even though the bible says Jesus was the son of god, not all Christians believe it".

No, actually it’s more like saying; Not every Christian believes in what the Pope says. It’s exactly the same in fact. The books are an addition by people who lived in the time, it is what they thought. Trying to claim every Muslim believes in the texts, is like saying every Christian believes the Pope is God on Earth.

Don’t give me that bull#. Do you people really expect us to believe that words like "Fight, slaughter, kill the infidels, slay them and flay their skin" can hold any other connotation than a violent one? Fight could mean struggle yes.

Actually, if you’d read over the quotes I gave you. You’d see they don’t even exist. You seem to not understand how Arabic works or even Islam. Many Muslims you see, can’t speak Arabic so various translations got bounded about. Some of these, mistranslated words such as “separate” to “strike” and so on and so fourth. Some words such as “separate” has over 100 meanings, including struggle, fight, strike, kill and so on and so fourth. Many Muslims thus begin to learn Arabic so they can read the Qu’ran itself as normally only the Imam in many instances can. However, I have yet to meet a Muslim Imam or higher who has said to read any of the translated versions you used in those quotes. In fact, I’ve seen and showed on this site the opposite before.

I’m sorry but where I come from, you take responsibility for your own actions. You don’t try to blame your own behavioural problems on Governments across the other side of the world.

That’s good then. The United State’s can take responsibility for its actions. It trained Al Qaeda. It showed Bin Laden and his militants how to use those weapons, how to make those bombs and so on and so fourth. It’s about time they take responsibility for their actions, including the invasion of Iraq which has resulted in the ever growing number of terrorists. Have terrorist attacks gone down or up since the invasion of Iraq? Has Islamic support gone down or up, in between Afghanistan and Iraq? I know the answers to those and I also know that the vast majority of Muslims supported the United State’s up until they began to target “rogue states”. During Afghanistan, many Muslims were glad to see such oppressive regimes being removed.

You’ll also find, that Australia has grown as a target exponentially since it’s involvement in the Iraq War.

However, now I want to go back to something I said earlier.

I’m not sure about your knowledge of “Christian End-timers”, but I suggest you do a bit of background research on them. This is a group of people, including people who President Bush phones on important issues who have stated that it is alright to bring the apocalypse around. Back before the fall of the U.S.S.R. they were pushing for a Nuclear War with Russia - in fact, they were then painting the U.S.S.R. as what the media is now doing to Islam. They think, if the end times comes with their help they will be saved. They believe that the United State’s should defend Israel and should attempted to force what is seen in Revelations. They think forcing Muslims to a War with Jerusalem one hat will turn Nuclear, will result in the Second Coming of Christ. These people are in power in the United State’s now, they are in power in Big Business and the media.

They are more of a threat then Iran, North Korea and every Islamic Terrorist could ever be. To them, the destruction of the Planet through things such as Global Warming, Nuclear War, Genocide of over half the worlds population is fine. Fine because the Bible says so. You can try and sit there and say going to war with Iraq was the right thing. You can try and sit there claiming Islamic Extremism and Islam is the largest threat to the World at this current time but it is a lie. The Middle East has nothing on these people and will not do. Especially while President George W. Bush phones members of the “End Timers” up for advice. Maybe you’re one of them and then good for you. However, calling for what happens in Revelations and defending the people who do such things [United State’s administration] is worse than anything like September the 11th. 3000 innocent people is no where near 3billion. Very odd the name you’ve chosen as well - Ezekial.

Maybe you should think about it next time you defend the actions of the United State’s? I suggest you get a couple of books on “End Timers” and see who speaks about it. But then again, with the name as you are and such lines as “Good is watching” and your stance on Islam maybe you already know?

How very odd indeed.

[1] Dr. Jeffrey Record, Bounding the Global War on Terrorism
[2] "U.N.: 2,200 Companies Gave Iraq Illicit Funds", Nick Wadhams & Edith Lederer &
www.cnn.com...

Originally posted by zman
Ok , what would Jesus do .. whould he not try to show the error in the ways of others who where not right with the faith.

Zman,
Ok you made a point from the Christian side of things, but let me ask you this.
Do you think the Pope should continue to make more unfaverable statments about Islam to further show how they are prone to violence to further convince the rest of the world of this point?

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by zman
Ok , what would Jesus do .. whould he not try to show the error in the ways of others who where not right with the faith.

Zman,
Ok you made a point from the Christian side of things, but let me ask you this.
Do you think the Pope should continue to make more unfaverable statments about Islam to further show how they are prone to violence to further convince the rest of the world of this point?

The pope is going to speak his mind , but does he speak for all christains , no he does not. We all know that Islam is die or convert. This is there goal. Maybe alot of people do not understand that , and by the responce of the Islam nations we see how true it is. I think in MY MIND that the pope should just tend to his flock and stop trying to be Christ on earth as we all know he is not. I think he should be held accountable for his actions as we all are , and I can not judge as it is not for me to judge but just what I feel is right may not be the right of what others may think , this I understand as well all agree to disagree. But in MY MIND he should be made accountable , and his actions may they be good or bad is for me not to decide.

We all know that Islam is die or convert. This is there goal.

BS, pure and simple. If that were the goal of Islam as a whole, what's going on now would seem like a day in the park.

As it is, it is the goal of a very few fanatics, a fringe of a fringe.

Of course, our own fringe groups would like us to believe it's so...

ZMAN,

a question to you. You feel safe in your opinion that because you have seen a few hundred Muslims carrying on like jackasses, that the entire religion is somehow the same as these; beacuase, as I understand it, you never see the other peacful muslims standing up and taking a stand for peace?

If so, then how do you suppose the West's side appears to the Muslims? We pillage their resources and we say nothing. Our leaders install dictatorships, and we say nothing. Our governments assinate democractically elected leaders, and we say nothing. Our institutions cover developing worlds in debt and debenture, and we say nothing...

Now, maybe you'll say that is silly because we do have protests on globalisation, IMF and others. We do have anti-war protests and such. However, the simple fact is these protests do nothing to stop them from acting in "our" interest. On top of that, should some evil Islamic person decide to mind control others it would be a fairly easy thing to do - merely have the national media outlets show only one side of it and viola instant acceptance of the vile and evil nature of the west..

I also have no doubt that the above scenerio is being used over there to breed the amount of irrational fears, the trouble, as I see it, is it is being used here to do the exact same thing on the other side of the coin.

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And did he mentionned that Christians also did this? Killing millions of people because they were infidels? Pope, STFU.

Christians DID this - Muslims are still DOING this.

Along with all the other stuff that was metioned a few posts up by Thinksyouranidiot.

I get really sick of this argument.

"Well christians did it too!"

Yes but they grew up and realised it was wrong. Some Muslim nations havent seemed to have realised that yet.

Well, by that logic, it took what, 2000 years for most moderate Christians to get over the heathen populace (die hards are still at it)?

Considering Islam started aroud 600 or 700 years after Christianity, I guess, we can expect peace around the years 2600-2700.



I hope it doesn't take that long.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
ZMAN,

a question to you. You feel safe in your opinion that because you have seen a few hundred Muslims carrying on like jackasses, that the entire religion is somehow the same as these; beacuase, as I understand it, you never see the other peacful muslims standing up and taking a stand for peace?

If so, then how do you suppose the West's side appears to the Muslims? We pillage their resources and we say nothing. Our leaders install dictatorships, and we say nothing. Our governments assinate democractically elected leaders, and we say nothing. Our institutions cover developing worlds in debt and debenture, and we say nothing...

I understand your fustration as one who is fustrated by someone else speaking for all christains like the pope.But since they meaning Islamic nations have decreed a holy war against me with out knowing where I stand on any issues is just IN MY MIND wrong. So I understand you say nothing , because of your situation with debt leaders , etc , I am glad that I atleast get the right to vote and to have a say what person I want in office and if its someone I do not like I can wait another 4 years to again vote. But I understand , muslims in general are getting a bad rap of this and you know as well as I know that when you read about your prophet that he states that if they are not with us then they are against us , what do you have to say about the fact that you are not doing his bidding as a true muslim. Many Blessings.

Waiting2awake you hit the nail on the head.

Fanatics on both sides are trying to stir up hatred and resentment, in order to bring about a genocidal "clash of civilizations", for reasons best understood by themselves.

It's up to the rest of us to let them know where they can stick it.

Enjoy your WATS vote

zman, where does it say "convert or die" in the Qu'ran? You claim to have read it so I dare you to show me. :-)

Also where have these Islamic Nation's declared war on another religion, I'd like you to show us that as well.

Originally posted by Odium
zman, where does it say "convert or die" in the Qu'ran? You claim to have read it so I dare you to show me. :-)

Also where have these Islamic Nation's declared war on another religion, I'd like you to show us that as well.

(sigh)

OK, here are some direct quotes from The Holy Qu'ran. Mind you, followers of Islam believe that these writings are "the main written record of revelation to humanity is the Qur'an, which is flawless, immutable, and which Muslims believe is the final revelation of God to humanity". - Wikipedia

Here are just a few, in order. My favorite is the first.....

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His messanger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His messanger - then surely Allah is severe in requitting. This - taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the punishment of fire. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

"And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" (8:39)

"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve" (8:55)

"When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and beseige them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them" (9:5)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (9:29-30)


These are but a few selected "highlights" from our favorite religion of "peace".......