Speech From Pope Outrages Muslim Leaders

Originally posted by Pyros
Tell you what, partner. Give me some examples of Muslims preaching tolerance to Christianity and Judaism.

Surah - "Al Baqarah" 2:62 "Those who believe, Jews, Nazarenes (Christians) and Sabaeans - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good deeds - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor are they saddened."

Here

Here

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Or better yet........gie me some names. Names of world-famous Muslims. Great thinkers, scientists, artists, poets and writers. Names known all over the world in every household. Great Muslims who have contributed to the world society at large in meaningful ways. Show me 20 names I will recognize. One rule, however. They cannot be a political, military, or religious leader. Not an easy job, I bet.

This was very easy. I listed more than 20 for you.

Daniel Moore, Rumi, Martin Lings, Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam), Muhammad Ali, Al-Khwarizmi, Jeffrey Lang, Dino Merlin, Dave Chappelle (Yes the comedian on the Chappelle Show), Akon, Erik Schrody (Everlast), Amr Diab, Ghiyath al-Kashi, Ahmed H. Zewail (won the nobel prize in 1999), Omar Khayyam, Abu Nasr Mansur (created law of sines, which is widely used in mathematics today), Al-Kindi (created the correct formulation for pharmacies to use in medicine, also heavily contributed to geometry), Al-Razi (was the first to study and find the causes of diseases such as smallpox, asthma, created the method of distillation and extraction we use today, which helped him also discover of sulfuric acid), Abu Kamil (heavily contributed to Alegbra), Avicenna (wrotes guides on medical studies that were in use for more than 500 years by the west), Ahmed ibn Yusuf (created the concept of ratio and proportion), Averroes (translated Aristotles works, which would have been lost and forgotten if not for him), Al-Biruni (created the rule of three, works in arithmetic, irrational numbers, algebraic definitions, and Archimedes' theorems).

Muslims are not unlike the Scientologists in their squelching of dissent, and their mockery and threats against those who would expose them.

Yes, all of my posts here have been "I'll kill you all." Great generalization. I suppose you're going to reply with the typical "I didn't mean ALL Muslims."

The Pope is learning this first hand. Face it - your westernized Muslims with good jobs and freedom are not the concern. Its the millions of them who live east of the Med and West of China that are the concern.

How many do you know from the East? I have lots of family there, and none are lining up to create any threats. You seem to only specificy one region, because it's what the media focuses on, and what you have heard about through non first hand sources.

I'm sorry if you think this sounds bigoted or ignorant. It really isn't. It's just the way it is. I'm sick and tired of dealing with a religion who cries foul at the slightest provocation, yet indoctrinates it's followers to distain and dominate all who do not believe.

It's not ignorant to critique, but it is ignorant to do so based on no real first hand knowledge of why you're critiquing it. You can hear some telling you that a book is bad, but until you read it for yourself how will you know if it's really bad?

And perhaps worst of all, those Muslims who are tolerant, educated, and economically self-sufficient......do absolutely NOTHING to allay my fears and suspicions. Either they secretly believe in what I suspect.....or they too are in fear of their radical bretheren.

Incorrect. People who make these statements don't look hard enough. Muslims all over the world denounce terrorism and violence, and yet the media will not focus on us. I don't consider extremists as "Muslim," due to the fact that they go against the teachings of the Quran (there is no compulsion in religion, give peace when it is asked, do not be the agressors, value all human life over killing, respect other faiths.) I do my part in educating the public, so don't think we Muslims do not preach peace.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

jlc163, where to begin?

Let’s pick out this bit first:

(I.e. Spainards are better than others and only Spain shall prevail, and btw, Spain is ONLY catholic.)

Spain now is not only Catholic, you must know this. So I assume you must mean during the Spanish Inquisition. Granada ring a bell? Boabdil of Granada maybe? Islam was banished from Spain in 1492 but it still did exist there during the Inquisition, however the Inquisition itself only had power over baptized Christians.

Sorry, but Spain has never been a solidly Catholic Nation.

Reference: Hugh Kennedy, Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of al-Andalus,

The ONLY reason it is failing is because it's crumbling into a Socialist state (socialsist, in basic terms=democracy+communism),

No it’s not. I suggest you read over some socialist books, Robert Owen is a good start.

Socialism and Communism, only has something to do with each other in the minds of Marxists. Communism existed hundreds of years before the word Socialism ever did. About 1780 [Robert Owne] to then 1516 [Thomas More]. Socialism never has been Democracy + Communism.

Which is why I stated, AT MOST he was a pagan with a soft spot for Wagner.

Nope.

Hitler believed in Positive Christianity.

Reference: Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich, Cambridge University Press, 2003

Originally posted by xmotex

We all know that Islam is die or convert. This is there goal.

BS, pure and simple. If that were the goal of Islam as a whole, what's going on now would seem like a day in the park.

As it is, it is the goal of a very few fanatics, a fringe of a fringe.

Xmotex,
I really would like to think that this is true, but on the flip side I have not seen any of the main streem, or those out side of the "fringe" as you put it, speaking out against the very few fanatics.

They are.
It just doesn't make for good TV.

Originally posted by xmotex
They are.
It just doesn't make for good TV.

Xmotex,
That does make some sence
Aslo another poster on this thred did post five links showing Muslem leaders either welcomeing people out side of there faith or atending a multi faith confrence. I also think a bigger issue is that the fringe fanatics do seem to be very well equiped, that would indicate state support.

RedGolem, how about this article?

Here's a quote from it:

Yes, we American Muslims will continue to challenge the Bush administrations’ proposal to wage war against Iraq. We think a regime change in Washington is as necessary as a regime change in Baghdad, but that is an intramural affair. Once the war is declared, make no mistake Mr. Saddam Hussein and Mr. Bin Laden, We are with America. We will fight with America and we will fight for America. We have a covenant with this nation, we see it as a divine commitment and we will not disobey the Quran (9:4) – we will fulfill our obligations as citizens to the land that opened its doors to us and promised us equality and dignity even though we have a different faith. I am sure Mr. Bin Laden, you can neither understand nor appreciate this willingness to accept and welcome the other.

Then there is this one here.

Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.

There's a few.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
You my friend have nailed it on the head...

that is exactly what Saudi Arabia is dealing with... a bunch of poor extremists with lots of men, with nothing to lose... and a fervent self righteous beleif system...
and lots of power among the people...

Oh right right and this small minoroty is responsible for this ridiculous Sharia Law. It was just last year that a fire at a girls school led to the death of several students because the police wouldn't allow the girls to leave nor the firefighters into the burnign buildings because their faces weren't covered. Hardly the work of poor extremists.

In yet another event related to the Popes speach it now seems that a new terror group has been formed. They are calling them selves the army of guidence.

A previously unknown Muslim group calling itself "The Army of Guidance" pledged on Tuesday to strike at Christian targets in the Gaza Strip in retaliation for recent remarks by the pope deemed offensive by many Muslims.

and also

"Every place relevant to Christians will be a target," said a statement from The Army of Guidance sent to news organizations in Gaza. "This will be until the accursed infidel, the Vatican, apologizes to Muslims."

sorce news

The Palastinen Interier Minister said that this is a new name for a terror group, and at this point they do not see it as a thret. I do truely hope it will not take a lot of people being killed to show that the Ministry was wrong.

RedGolem, as soon as they attack the targets they stop being Muslims. It's forbidden for Muslims to:

1. Kill or hurt women and children even if they are from the enemy
2. Kill the sick and elderly people even if they are from the enemy
3. Do not destroy hospitals
4. Do not cut down green tress
5. Do not contaminate water sources
6. Do not destroy the places of worship of other religions

This is during and not-during times of war. It's just more anger being vented by extremist groups.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
You my friend have nailed it on the head...

that is exactly what Saudi Arabia is dealing with... a bunch of poor extremists with lots of men, with nothing to lose... and a fervent self righteous beleif system...
and lots of power among the people...

Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes in the World. It is down to them and the support the United State's has for them that many of the problems with Islamic extremism come from. Bin Laden himself admitted the support for Israel and Saudi Arabia is why 9/11 happened.

They're no more fighting terrorits, then Saddam was fighting terrorists when he attacked the Kurds. They want freedom to vote, think and do what they desire. Not to be forced to dress, act, etc.

Originally posted by Odium
RedGolem, as soon as they attack the targets they stop being Muslims. It's forbidden for Muslims to:

1. Kill or hurt women and children even if they are from the enemy
2. Kill the sick and elderly people even if they are from the enemy
3. Do not destroy hospitals
4. Do not cut down green tress
5. Do not contaminate water sources
6. Do not destroy the places of worship of other religions

Odium,
I am sure that list is correct, and no decent person would argue anything on it. But as good as that list is, all of those things being forbiden has not stoped those who wish to spred terror from doing them.
Or so it would seem.

You know what? we can go back and forth some people saying and showing texts from the earlier parts of the Quran, when Mohammed was more tolerant towards Judaism and Christianity, stating that Islam is peaceful, and others showing later parts of the Quran, after Mohammed was rejected as a prophet by the Jewish people and Christians and when he became very intolerant towards Judaism and Christianity, but at the end you know what is it that shows as to whether or not the pope was right in his quote?

The violent responses we keep seeing from many Muslims, not a few, not just some isolated places as some would claim. All the calls to kill the pope and kill everyone who says anything against Islam is the proof that maybe "things are not as peachy as some want the world to believe when it comes to Islam".

Yes, there are moderate Muslims, but these Muslims also die at the hands of the extremists, because in the eyes of the extremists the moderates are not following Islam, and that is because nomatter what some would like to claim, Mohammed was not such a peaceful person, he did raid caravans, he did kill, and beheaded people, including people who had surrendered, and he took slave wives and loot from the caravans he and his followers raided.

When the main prophet and the inspiration of a religion raided caravans, killed and beheaded people, and took loot and slave wives, what do you think that tells many of the followers of that religion/way of life?

[edit on 19-9-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
When the main prophet and the inspiration of a religion raided caravans, killed and beheaded people, and took loot and slave wives, what do you think that tells many of the followers of that religion/way of life?

That he himself isn't capable of following his own teachings, and that he himself doesn't believe the things he teaches those that follow him.

I wonder what it will take to re-instill this world with the sanity that it seems to have lost. Since when can some people go off on a tangent, thinking it's justified to go kill innocent nuns, just because a man said something that they don't agree with? Are they THAT insecure about their own religion? If so, then I suggest they start looking around for another one to go to, or to look deeply into what their religion states as it's prime tenets.

TheBorg

Originally posted by Muaddib
When the main prophet and the inspiration of a religion raided caravans, killed and beheaded people, and took loot and slave wives, what do you think that tells many of the followers of that religion/way of life?

So what your saying is that muslims are generally evil because their religion has a violent basis, as opposed to the kind, merciful and gentle basis of the christian-judeo religons, such as the catholic religion which the pope represents.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm...

War
The biblical God is guilty of wartime atrocities. After bringing the Israelites out of captivity in Egypt, he ordered them to attack King Sihon of Heshbon. So the Israelites "put to death everyone in the cities, men, women, and dependents" and "left no survivor." Deuteronomy 2:31-34

God then told them to do the same to King Og of Bashan. The Israelites therefore "slaughtered them and left no survivor." Deuteronomy 3:1-7

At God's command, the Israelites made war on Midian and slew all the men and burned their cities. Numbers 31:7-12 But Moses was angry because they had spared the women and children. So he ordered the soldiers to "kill every male dependent, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with a man, but spare for yourselves every woman among them who has not had intercourse." Numbers 31:14-18 Shortly thereafter, God gave Moses instructions for distributing the captive virgins among the fighting men and the community. Numbers 31:25-47

In resettling the Israelites after the Egyptian sojourn, God instructed them to steal the land of seven nations. And he told them to "not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them. . . ." Deuteronomy 7:1-6;20:16-17
source

Footnotes expanded

No....what i am saying is that when the main prophet of a religion has killed, beheaded, taken loot and slave wives from raided caravans, it gives an open invitation to those who follow that belief to do the same.

There have been many atrocities because of Christianity, Judaism and other religions most of which have happened in the ancient past, mostly because some of teachings of the old books from some religions, and in many cases people distorting the true teachings of the prophets/messiahs from those religions.

In the case of Islam, islamic extremists are not distorting the teachings from Mohammed, he did those same things Islamic extremists are doing these days. I am not going to try to be "politically correct" trying to hide the facts just so some people might feel better.

Christianity had as it's last prophet and messiah a man who did not take up a sword to spread his religion by force, neither did Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, and many other messiah's/prophets from other religions. If Jesus would have done the things which Mohammed did, i am certain we will have a lot more Christian extremists now.

Things that make you go humm huh?...


[edit on 20-9-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Things that make you go humm huh?...

Indeed things that make you go hmmmm. I find it unsettling that some people can misunderstand the simplest of concepts when it comes to coexisting with people with different beliefs. Jesus never told the Christians to go out and spread the word by the sword, simply because that would never work, and he knew that. To assume that any other religion would have success doing anything related to violence is folly, since Christianity would win out, with it's peaceful system.

Between Christianity and Buddhism, the world's two most peaceful religions imho, there's really no room for radical thinking, on any side. These are just my thoughts on this though.

TheBorg

Muslims as people are not evil.

The religion the follow is evil.

It is your personal character that can either defeat the evil religion, or succumb to it.

Like the force, you chose to fight it, or you chose to accept it.

If you accept it, you are bound by your new faith to to continue its growth.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Muslims as people are not evil.

The religion the follow is evil.

It is your personal character that can either defeat the evil religion, or succumb to it.

Like the force, you chose to fight it, or you chose to accept it.

If you accept it, you are bound by your new faith to to continue its growth.

Thank for that riveting analysis and the exceptional star wars analogy.

If any of you would like to read the exact words of the Vatican on this topic hear is part of what they said.

- The position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate: "The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting" (no. 3).

Link to Vatican web page.

It does seem to be very well written, but then again they are thelogians so they should be good at things like that

This whole event is another fine example how the media and leaders blew things out of proportion and thus riled up the gullible reactionary masses. As in the school yard, kids will pick on the child who has a bad temper, just to see him react and/or to get him in trouble.

So what happens if they called for war and no one showed up? Maybe one day people will learn not to sell themselves out so easily, especially for mere rhetoric and start using their heads.

In Defense of Pope Benedict Antiwar.com

“In no way did I wish to make my own the words of the medieval emperor. I wished to explain that not religion and violence but religion and reason go together.” ~Pope Benedict XVI

Reactionary minds void of reason is what we call animals....

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Muaddib

There have been many atrocities because of Christianity, Judaism and other religions most of which have happened in the ancient past, mostly because some of teachings of the old books from some religions, and in many cases people distorting the true teachings of the prophets/messiahs from those religions.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Muaddib]

I see the point you are trying to make, however there are still people to this very day, who take messages from the bible out of context (or literally in old testament cases) and let them rule their daily actions. We focus primarilly on the few muslim people who do the same with their religion and blast that in our newspapers. Not the 1billion + other muslims who deplore violence for the most part and just want to live their daily lives. As the poster above your last entry pointed out, the god of the old testament was a very vengeful god. Many attrocities that are commited today are done so in the name of the bible. Just because it isn't on the front page doesn't meat it doesn't happen.

Both the bible and the koran have references to violence and the fate of the non believer, it is up to each person to determine how this affects their daily actions. I was just listening to the radio last night, and a man called in preaching that the bible teaches "eye for an eye" and that was our "mandate" to go and kick some tail. What he didn't mention was that Christ negated that old school of thought with a statement no other than "turn the other cheek" - how many christians do you think miss this point? Now apply that same logic to the VERY few muslims who believe that violence is the only answer. I say very few as the number of muslims who aren't violent is FAR FAR greater.