I am not going to get into an argument over which religion is better. As like I said before we all agree to disagree. This is why there will never be a one religion fits all as far as a world government. One must always protect the rights of others who disbeleive as you do not know what god has in store for them. This is why I can not make a judgement only God can. So with that I say many Blessings.

Jamuhn,

Why don't you post the complete quotations (as you see them) and let the readers judge for themselves?

And using an Islamic apologist website as a "source" hardly dilutes any of the arguments being made in support of the idea that today's Islam is a violent and intolerant system of belief (as it has always been).

I doesn't matter that the original context of these writings are being misinterpreted. Just as some christians take every word of the Bible as "literal", so do most Muslims believe of the Qu'ran. And we are not talking about affluent, educated Muslims who can afford to maintain a fancy apologist web site. We are talking about the teeming millions of poor, uneducated muslims around the world whose only reason to even bother to learn to read is so they can recite the Qu'ran.

And guess which parts they are reciting? The parts being taught to them all too frequently, like the ones I previously posted. It doesn't matter what the original meaning was meant to be. What matters is the current application of the current translation. And in this case it means intolerance, forced conversions, subjugation and death for the non-believers.

The Pope spoke no lies, and should not apologize for anything - especially the truth.

I have another quetion for Pyros: assuming your cherrypicking of Islamic texts represents the truth, and Islam is somehow an "inherently violent" religion... then what do you propose as a solution?

Forced conversion? Genocide?

Please enlighten us...

Pyros, misquotations of the Qur’an is not only an insult to Muslims but it is an insult to every decent member of this website. Did you ever notice the motto: “Deny Ignorance”?

Let’s take a look at your favourite. 8:12-17. Well book Eight of the Qur’an is Al-Anfal, roughly translated as the “Spoils of War”. You try to make out that it is meant to be used in a way on all who do not believe. This is where your ignorance of the Qur’an comes in. The 8th book: Al-Anfal, deals with when someone else attacks you.

What it is saying is, when a Muslim is attacked by a Non-Muslim through physical violence, Allah will protect the Muslim. Thus, they can strike at the attacker without fear because he will be scarred by Allah. It has nothing to do with going fourth and killing disbelievers. It is in no way justifying the attack of disbelievers.

And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Again, it has nothing to do with out and out violence towards non-Muslims. 8:39 is dealing with oppression of Muslims and what to do when you’re being oppressed. Grant them equal rights as Non-Muslims and there is no oppression.

8:55
For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

Let alone, are you using the Shakir translation, which has been rejected by many of the Islamic Supreme Councils [and not endorsed by one I have seen] you do not understand what “Sight of Allah” means. Basically, it’s saying to those who see Allah as in, when he shows himself to them.

Again, it does not encourage violence towards innocent people.

Now you move onto the 9th book in the Qur’an: Al-Tawba, which roughly means repentance and dispensation.

The 5th part of it, again you misunderstand. In the early days of Islam Mohammed was attacked and forced from Mecca by Jewish and Christian groups, as well as some Pagan groups. He aligned himself with other Pagan groups however they betrayed him/Islam. That’s what this is about, furthermore it is about in the “End Times” and has no baring on modern days. Is this Judgement day? No it’s not.

The rest of the book, is further about this time. It is also about those who are in Muslim Countries, but give no respect to Allah. I live in a Christian Country, under a Christian Government and I am willing to pay the tax this Government asks of me from my wages. This is what is being asked of them in those passages.

I am not sure how to make this any easier for you to understand. However, to just go and take quotes out of context and also to not look at the time/period that they happened in is exceptionally ignorant. I could take aspects of the Talmud, or any Religious texts remove them from the context that they are in and make it become a hostile religion. Just because you desire to paint it in such a way does not make it so.

There are people who believe in Allah who are ignorant of what his teachings actually mean. Going around constantly and claiming, they’re the true believers of Islam and the non-radical ones are misguided which ironically is what you end up doing. There were Christian Leaders and are still who desire to see every other religion removed off of this planet, we do not think all Christians do. You should not make out as though all Muslims are radical and that the Qur’an is promoting such hatred. It is not the truth and I’ve been willing to provide evidence of important Imam’s before on this website who say otherwise even giving ATSNN exclusive interviews. If you’d go do a bit of background reading, go speak to an Imam and ask him questions about these passages you’d see they’re nothing like what you think.

Instead you don’t. You look at a few lines of text and try to make out as though you’re an expert on Islam. You’re furthering the course of the fascists and not the Liberal Muslims. You’re helping the terrorists with every single copy and paste of such lies.

Originally posted by xmotex
I have another quetion for Pyros: assuming your cherrypicking of Islamic texts represents the truth, and Islam is somehow an "inherently violent" religion... then what do you propose as a solution?

Forced conversion? Genocide?

Please enlighten us...

As I have said before in other posts (if you bother to go look them up) is that......

Islam as a whole will only become a more tolerant and enlightened belief system when the lives of it's adherents become vastly improved economically and educationally. They hate because many have nothing better to do, have never learned anything else, or even worse....have nothing to lose.

Originally posted by Pyros
it's about Muslims today and the way they interpret the Qu'ran. I'm not the one besmirching the name and reputation of an entire belief system based upon my violent actions and intolerant practices.

And you speak for the majority of muslims how?

Sorry, but you don't. I seriously doubt you interact with Muslims that often and speaking as someone who does, I've met one so called radical Muslim in my life. I've met far many more people who support Nazism and many more Christians who supported the I.R.A.

However the fact is, when the I.R.A. killed people we did not say: "All christians act this way." Nor when Irgun and Levi killed people we did not say: "All Jews act this way". It's only when Muslims kill people that people say: "They all act that way."

Fact is, if over 1billion people were wanting to destroy the West. There would be a lot more bombs, deaths and murder than you see right now.

Islam as a whole will only become a more tolerant and enlightened belief system when the lives of it's adherents become vastly improved economically and educationally.

Well I'd actually tend to agree with that. But it doesn't seem to reflect the belief that Islam is inherently violent. After all, you could have easily said the same about Christians during the Middle Ages, and it would have been just as true.

Originally posted by nephyx
I assume you mean Religion. Yes I blame it.

If muslims are the peace loving people they claim to be then why do they let these things occur? Why havent any figureheads of the islamic community get on Television to denounce extremism and Jihad?

Do you know how many times this has been asked? let me ask you, if you owned a news agency, would you rather report on violence or someone talking to denounce the violence? Which do you feel would get better ratings?

The reality of it is that these people arent that different. The reason they wont denounce it is because they all subscribe to the same bathic faith. Religion strips away individualism and throws people into one group with one voice.

If this is true, then people like me don't exist then, right? All this time, when I've been denouncing terrorism, people like you over look statements like mine to justify your belief. Doing otherwise would prove you wrong, would it not?

This is why people shouldnt subscribe and affiliate themselves with specific faith based religions. ITs common sense for any halfway intelligent person to understand the problems that innevitably arise from the religious divisions of cultures.

You make it sound as if the world would have no problems if religion had not come into play. Do you feel that the homeless would have a home, there would be no fighting in history over land, there would be no famine or poverty, no killing, no corruption in government, or there would be food in abundance for all, if religion did not exist?

Originally posted by zman
As far as Islam which I read the Koran and understand that they will kill you if you do not convert is not the same god that Jesus preached about.

Now tell us, did you actually read the Quran, or did you just read quotes from an anti-Islamic website? If you read the Quran, you would know that it doesn't say "convert or die."

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Pyros
it's about Muslims today and the way they interpret the Qu'ran. I'm not the one besmirching the name and reputation of an entire belief system based upon my violent actions and intolerant practices.

And you speak for the majority of muslims how?

Sorry, but you don't. I seriously doubt you interact with Muslims that often and speaking as someone who does, I've met one so called radical Muslim in my life. I've met far many more people who support Nazism and many more Christians who supported the I.R.A.

However the fact is, when the I.R.A. killed people we did not say: "All christians act this way." Nor when Irgun and Levi killed people we did not say: "All Jews act this way". It's only when Muslims kill people that people say: "They all act that way."

Fact is, if over 1billion people were wanting to destroy the West. There would be a lot more bombs, deaths and murder than you see right now.

You make the mistake of assuming that I think all Muslims are terrorists. That is false, and I do not believe it to be true. I have been to many Muslim countries, and currently work with Muslims on a daily basis. But, then again, these are American Muslims and they don't have too much to be unhappy about, say, compared to Pakistani Muslims, or Somali Muslims.

Are you saying that Muslims do not preach intolerance to non-Muslims? Are you saying that the history of Islam and its founders are devoid of violence, death, and intolerance? What planet are you living on? It's not the actions of terrorists we are talking about here. Its the giant outcry of indignation and anger from the world Muslim community at large, as reported by almost every major news outlet. Sure there have been a few nuns killed and churches burned, but thats to be expected from the fringe elements. I'm talking about non-westernized Muslims at large.

Tell you what, partner. Give me some examples of Muslims preaching tolerance to Christianity and Judaism. Big leaders on the world Islamic stage. Show me examples of world leaders of Islam holding conferences on how to improve bi-lateral relations with Hindus, Jews, Christians, and Athiests. Or how about tolerance towards western ideas, like equal rights for women, or gay rights, or equal voting, or democracy for that matter. Or how about some main stream muslims talking about how they need to "improve their relations" with christians as a whole. Or how about a muslim cleric who apologizes for referring to any non-muslim as an "infidel" or any other disparaging remark about another religion.

Or better yet........gie me some names. Names of world-famous Muslims. Great thinkers, scientists, artists, poets and writers. Names known all over the world in every household. Great Muslims who have contributed to the world society at large in meaningful ways. Show me 20 names I will recognize. One rule, however. They cannot be a political, military, or religious leader. Not an easy job, I bet.

Muslims are not unlike the Scientologists in their squelching of dissent, and their mockery and threats against those who would expose them. The Pope is learning this first hand. Face it - your westernized Muslims with good jobs and freedom are not the concern. Its the millions of them who live east of the Med and West of China that are the concern.

I'm sorry if you think this sounds bigoted or ignorant. It really isn't. It's just the way it is. I'm sick and tired of dealing with a religion who cries foul at the slightest provocation, yet indoctrinates it's followers to distain and dominate all who do not believe. And perhaps worst of all, those Muslims who are tolerant, educated, and economically self-sufficient......do absolutely NOTHING to allay my fears and suspicions. Either they secretly believe in what I suspect.....or they too are in fear of their radical bretheren.

Originally posted by nephyx
The reality of it is that these people arent that different. The reason they wont denounce it is because they all subscribe to the same bathic faith. Religion strips away individualism and throws people into one group with one voice.

This is mob mentality.

This is nothing new.

And it definately is seen outside of a religion on a daily basis.

We who believe everything the news says, and allows them to make our general opinion (about a 4th of the voters who vote) allow a few men that control over our lives. It has nothing to do with the Pope. Attacks on veterans from Vietnam were triggered not by a religious cause, but by a "we want peace" mentality that wasn't willing to stand by it's country when it was too late.

Violence on the scale of the muslim extrimists requires not only indoctrination from childhood, but also GENRATIONS to spread.
It's easier to find genrations of belief in the same cause in 2 places:
1. religion
2. nationalism

This is where whole countries are going to. Look at the extreme divergance of thought between someone from American type (aka manifest destiny, associated our socialists& communists with the Nazis&etc. and went on a witch hunt) and Brtish thinkers who believe Socialism is the best thing since buttered bread. While they are busy focusing on the hate from religions, they are building up an intolerance and they will become the thing they hate. It'll take about 3-6 more generations for that much change, if unchecked. Some places, even less...and have already done so (WWI).

I am a christian, and I retain my right of independance. No man is going to set himself up as being better than me, or as my intermediary for God. No one makes my decisions for me. Yes, I do base some of my decisions off the Bible, but it's no better than basing my decisions off a visceral reaction I have to any news comming from another souce than me and myself, as do most of the non-chistians who dont go by a book that I've met.

Comming from a catholic background, I can tell you that the majority of the catholics down here really have nothing to do with their religion after confirmation. They are nominally catholic, and still count themselves as catholic, and they listen to the pope about as much as they give a damn what outsiders think of them. Let the pope talk, his people aren't all for him, anyway.

Originally posted by xmotex

Islam as a whole will only become a more tolerant and enlightened belief system when the lives of it's adherents become vastly improved economically and educationally.

Well I'd actually tend to agree with that. But it doesn't seem to reflect the belief that Islam is inherently violent. After all, you could have easily said the same about Christians during the Middle Ages, and it would have been just as true.

Your arguement re Christians has merit, but that is another subject.

Based upon my studies and interaction with other muslims, I would sumbit that the Islamic belief system is inherrently different then that of Christianity (based upon how each religion was formed over the 1st 100 years of it's lifespan).

Early Christianity was characterized by passive conversion (if you could even call it that, since most early christians probably still though of themselves as Jews), persecution at the hands of a cruel and oppresive regime, and a philosophy of brotherhood and forgiveness. I would submit that the early period of Islam did not exibit any of these characteristics, and their version of the "good news" was spread via the sword, and the news was that if you converted, you got to live.....

Pyros your argument has no legs to stand on.

Either the Qur’an is to blame for the actions of Radical Muslims or it is the misinterpretation that is to blame for the actions of Radical Muslims. If it is the second, then the idea of education can help to change this if it is the first than it would require the removal of the whole faith to get anything accomplished. It can not be one or the other, however you are trying to ascribe it to both.

Are you saying that Muslims do not preach intolerance to non-Muslims?

I have never met anyone Imams, Supreme Council Members and Scholars who do such a thing. I’ve seen people on the T.V. who of course do say otherwise, however these tend to be fringe elements of the Religion. I’d say the vast majority of Muslims [90% and above of the 1billion+] have nothing to do with such people.

There will always be people who do preach intolerance, this is not based around faith.

Are you saying that the history of Islam and its founders are devoid of violence, death, and intolerance?

No, I am not. I openly admit Mohammed was involved in several battles including in Medina and Mecca. However, if you’d read the Qur’an you’d know they were attacked first. Of course, if you wish to argue this I would love to see other texts from the period.

I'm talking about non-westernized Muslims at large.

So am I.

Sure there have been a few nuns killed and churches burned, but thats to be expected from the fringe elements.

You’ve just shot yourself in the foot there.

me some examples of Muslims preaching tolerance to Christianity and Judaism.

Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi - Speaks in Egypt.
Syed B. Soharwardy - Speaks in Saudi Arabia.
Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi - Speaks in Qatar

I can go on and on. Just because you decide to put your head in the sand doesn’t mean the rest of the World does. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting a few dozen Islamic Imam’s and speakers from around the World. I suggest you do the same. They often hold conferences in the United State’s and Canada, in which you can ask them about their actions in Africa, The Middle East and Asia.

Names of world-famous Muslims.

Famous to you or to me? Who decides what is famous?

As for the poets, scientists, etc, there are many. However, if you do not speak Arabic why would you know their poems?

Scientists?

Abu'l Hasan Ahmad ibn Ibrahim Al-Uqlidisi?
'Abbas Ibn Firnas: Glass from sand. Accurate clocks, over 1000 years ago.
Ibn Al-Baitar : botanist and pharmacist.


Again, I can go on. It would be a waste to name 20, because you’ll claim they mean nothing to you.

Its the millions of them who live east of the Med and West of China that are the concern.

Met enough of those over my days. I’ve been to the Middle East, just so you know.

I'm sorry if you think this sounds bigoted or ignorant. It really isn't.

It really is.

Just because you do not know something, does not mean it doesn’t exist. It actually makes you ignorant.

Reference; Dictionary
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

Yes, you are ignorant.

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by jlc163
Basically, this terror is the curse on us from our parents and grandparents for not fighting when there was a wrong, ignoring Hitler until he was close to being a real danger to us...and even further. WWI set up WWII, and could be blamed back a further generation. If this becomes a real WWIII (Something I doubt and pray agianst a lot), we can trace it back to WWII. It's as if the war never ended.

Jlc
I have not yet watched the video, but in responce to this all starting in WWtwo. I do agree that the U.S. waiting way to long to do anything about Hitler. And the reason why is because the U.S. had adopted an isolationist policy at that time. I know WW one led to WW two. But to say that WW two has led to the terror the world has now, I just dont know if I can agree that is compleatly correct.

The failer to act before Hitler controled Europe was a mistake, and if you have read more on ats you will find that the U.S. acting as they have is regarded by most to be a mistake. So not acting is a mistake and acting is a mistake, so what do you do to stop terror?

That's the reason for the cautious phrasing of things. I'm not making a definate statement, jsut pointing out the way it could go and be seen by our children, when they fight in such a war.

There was a definate relationship between the two, and one did go on to help found some of the terrorists that we deal with today, and some of the same verbal tatics are being used....this time with more success against America.

There are those who say that if we never got involved in WWI, there would have been no WWII, the British would just be speaking German, and probably, by now, the cold war would be between 3 countries, not 2.

Our timing was horribly off. But, we had no choice once Pearl Harbor happened. The dye had already been cast.