Originally posted by Kachina
In Iraq, more Christians dead or Muslims?
In Palestine, Israel and Jordon...more Christians/Jews dead or Muslims?

Yes in Iraq there are lots of Muslims dead - and whos killing them, OTHER MUSLIMS. The allied forces arent in there going around killing everyone, they are there trying to defend the innocent civilians while rooting out the extremists and the insurgents.

The insurgents have killed significantly more innocent muslims than the American forces have.

Lebanon? Who caused that problem - MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. Hezbollah started the fight, then based their operations from within areas populated with Civilians. Shooting rockets into israel from residential buildings - how can you justify that?

I thought Christians were good at math, Jews certainly are.
But why is it whenever you do your head counts you get it wrong...

Israel and the Christian US kill many more Muslims than Muslims killing the Judaeo/Christian...
Leave it to the American Jewish accountant to fix the books...
Bush grew up?

PLease show me the head count of INNOCENT muslims that have been killed by the 'Christian US' as compared to the number of innocent muslims killled by other muslims.

Wake up and learn how to count fingers before pointing them.

If you want to keep your head in the sand and blame all of the worlds problems on George Bush and the Western Military because it easier for you - then go ahead. But dont tell me to "wake up", when obviously you have such a narrow perspective on the issue that you cant accept the most obvious of facts - MUSLIM extremists are the ones killing all of the innocent people, not the 'christian armies'.

Just because they blame all of the violence on the west and America does not justify the countless innocent deaths that people of all faith and religions have had to suffer all throughout their violent campaignm, nor does it make it the West's fault.

This planet would be a lot better without muslims, nothing but nutcases looking for any opportunity for war, and they base their sad little lives around a nonsense "religion" called Islam. Really sad.

Originally posted by xmotex

And I can show you pictures of Christian extremists waving placards that say "Thank GOD for September 11th" and such at the funerals of US Servicemen killed in Iraq.

What's your point? Fanatics are, well, fanatics...

[edit on 9/17/06 by xmotex]

My point, is that you dont have Priests and Bishops preaching messages of hate and violence to millions of Christians.

HOwever, there are countless Muslim Clerics who are out there spreading the message of hate and violence.

Yes there are fanatics out there - unfortunately with Islam there are fanatics at both levels - the leaders AND the followers.

TG try to look at the bigger picture. The reason the westernworld has a problem with Islam and vice versa is due to western Theism.

Therefore. The only solution to radical extremism is to seperate religion from government. Ban religious lobbies and uphold a utopian ideology for a unified world under god.

Sure I dont have compassion for Islam, but I would be a hippocrite if I supported christianity in spite of Muslims.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by nephyx]

Ezekiel, stop spreading such lies.

Can you HONESTLY say (and remember god is watching) that you have NEVER seen any Muslims trying to prevent you from having say after looking at those photos?

Yep, I’ve never felt any oppression from a Muslim. I live in a Muslim Community, I’m openly not Muslim, I know the local Imam. We even had debates in some of my Law Classes with Muslims over the cartoons. Rather civil, polite conversations. I have never in my life lived in a nice area than the one I live in now.

Lets start with the 2,800 people from September 11. Gee I think I win already.

President George W. Bush is a Christian. Do I really need to point out how many people have died in Iraq because of his actions? If all Muslims are responsible for all of their actions, all Christians are too. As per-normal, more death at present is on the hands of Non-Muslims than Muslims.

Try and paint it off as Muslim violence against other Muslims. However, anyone with a brain knows that these terrorist attacks were not happening prior to the United State’s invading the country. Furthermore, the United State’s did bomb buildings which resulted in the loss of civilian life - the United State’s just paints them as collateral damage. Would you like it if I did the same to the victims of September the 11th? They were just collateral damage in an attack on the United State’s. It can’t be one way and not the other.

Yes they were there before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan - oh and what about all of the terrorists in Pakistan?

They were there in Iraq before the United State’s invaded? You can go place your head in the sand all you like, however Iraq and Bin Laden did not have anything to do with one another. Your own Government had admitted that now. It’s the same as every other aspect of the “War on Terrorism” which is nothing more than big business doing a land grab for oil:
Afghanistan grants access to a pipeline the Taliban had suspended just months before the invasions.
Iraq grants access to what was a Nationalised Oil Industry prior to the war.

Oh you want some more examples of Violence in the quran? Heres a whole thread just for you then!

Excerpts from the Qu'Ran and Islamic scholarly books

You just made me laugh.

I do hope you know, Sahih Bukhari is not a text within the Qu’ran? In fact, they’re only believed by Ahl ul-Sunna Muslims and not all of those believe in it either. The rest of the thread is nothing more than idiotic mistranslations, as well as pulling the quotes out of context. Words like fight, slaughter, etc, do not necessarily mean what you think they do. You’re as bad as the people who think Jihad means a form of physical war, it means nothing of the sort.

And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

You see the actual translation of 002:191? “Suppress faith”, not “disbelievers”. The vast majority of Muslims have said time and time again to not use Pickthal and Shakir translation. However, people still do. Many words from Arabic such as “kill”, “slaughter”, “disbeliever”, can be translated into hundreds of other words. It is people like you which pick the worst and try and claim that every Muslim believes in them.

002:193

And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

It is because of the ignorance of people like you, that fanaticism is allowed to grow. You are no better than any of these radical imams when you try and paint off civilian casualties as nothing more than “collateral damage”. It is because of the actions of the United State’s that terrorism is growing. They trained people like Bin Laden in the hope they would use these tactics against the Russian’s. However the U.S.S.R. fell and the United State’s was the one who began to support regimes like the kings of Saudi Arabia who oppress Muslims.

As long as you get your cheap oil, you sit back and place your head in the sand. You sit there and pretend that the United State’s is doing the right thing. You’re no better than the “End Timers” who are now in your Government, pushing for a Global War to bring the apocalypse. While you have those in your country, in your administration, in power your Nation is no better than any Islamic Nation who oppresses its people. Just because you have freedoms at home does not mean your Government controls those in other Nation’s.

You support the puppet Governments of Saudi Arabia and many other Nations who are fuelled by oppression. Until the United State’s stops supporting them, it has no right to speak about a “War on Terrorism”. It has no right to speak about bring democracy, freedom and justice to Muslims. Did you ever read the transcripts of what Bin Laden and other terrorist leaders have said? Did you realise terrorism was on a decline during the Afghanistan conflict and was made worse by the invasion of Iraq. The United State’s had support of the vast majority of Muslims with the invasion of Afghanistan - the Taliban were seen as oppressive to the rights of Muslims.

The United State’s had the majority of Islamic Support, they were warned by the Supreme Council of Britain, Canada, and many others that Iraq would make things worse not better.

You did not listen and the blood of those innocents is on your Governments hands and the hands of anyone who voted them into power.

Souljah & Odium.

WATS for you both.

Originally posted by Knights

Originally posted by ThinksYouAreAnIdiot
Maybe, but only muslims are still doing it.
Along with slavetrading, vaginal circumcisions, executing gays for homosexuality, genocidal racial purges, and stoning women for being raped.

I have to admit i'm not quite up to scratch with religious violence but i'm sure Christians are still active in killings/ bombings etc.

I can't find a link but I had the idea that mass murders were still regulary being fought in the 'name of God' in Africa/ parts of Asia?

I doubt that very much. The crusades are over, as far as Catholics are concerned - they have come out of the dark ages but the Muslims will always be there. Muslims still have this thing where, if they blow themselves up and others, old Moh. will be pleased. Damn, how stupid can one get? Well considering they beheaded a number of Americans I guess they are ok then? Man, it blows me away (excuse the pun).

The point of this thread is the same old story that we are not allowed to say anything about Islam nor can the people who feel socially imprisoned in those countries and know little else about chosing ones own independent path in life.

Terrorists existed before 9/11 too and Islamic regimes in Africa have killed plenty also and still do like Somalia and Sudan. Before America came to Iraq I think plenty of people were dying under that control. Problem is we hear so much of our our faults and not enough of theirs too. And now that they too are being uncovered sometimes theirs sound louder when uncovered. Usually mass graves uncovered too. The Americans are just as bad with their trigger happy mentality in Iraq and yes they have created unesassary casualties and deaths too. The America of 80s is not the same America of 90s and present decade both could have done better but both were under different parties and presidents so one has to judge seperately. But with Iraq you can judge with continuity its always been about Saddam, remember the super weapon he was trying to build? (I still need to look into it) But at the end of the day both sides of the pond would like to either take reasources or take over the World and Muslims want to convert the West its their global agenda too.


The battle of Armargeddon is not just because the West is trying to set it up but also the East, its prophecies are twisted to how the Bible see it to fit their goal. One such thing is that their God will kill all the Jews and our God will put judgement on the land of Peria (Iran) and Babylon Iraq in some future time line. So if its true or not both sides see each other as favoured by their version of God. Irans president looks like he wants to fullfil Islamic prophecy too to bring the 12th Iman into the world stage who has been hiding all this time, oh and they have their own version of the anti-Christ so greater confusion if Bible prophecy takes place.

How can we call our selves democratic when we are scared to give ones own opinions, they could be dumb, misinformed but still be opinions. The Iranian President does have some radical opinions and the politicians have made a fuss, problem is he is serious and like Bush who said God told him to go to war he too has been contacted by God. So either both have been Satanically inspired to cause equal destruction upon us or they are both mentally ill due to pressures.

The solution to Jihad is education, they don't exactly have a great educational system in those Muslim countries. But how do they get a balanced view of life as children if they are taught down a one way system of thought which in turn produces more ignorance towards the West and lack of basic human rights for their own.

It still does not matter the is enough evidence to say that Islam is not unique or more special, legitimate, historically correct, pagan influenced as they say we also. So why can we not speak of that also? It's to cover up of lie after lie that is why they are afraid as it takes their strong hold off the deluded brainwashed masses. I am not sure if personal opinion counts or is understood, everyone who has an opposing anti-Islamic opinion is a target.





[edit on 18-9-2006 by The time lord]

hasnt anyone noticed that the catholic church and the pope were slammed for not intervening nor speaking out against hitler and the nazi party, but now let him say that violence is wrong and everyone jumps up and down.why wouldnt a leader of a church have the right to speak against war? in light of tolerance, if we areto tolerate others beliefs and cultures then one must accept that not everyones opinion is to be the same. should no one say anything at all? will that make the problem go away?

by ezekiel
Can you HONESTLY say (and remember god is watching) that you have NEVER seen any Muslims trying to prevent you from having
say after looking at those photos?

Originally posted by Odium
Yep, I’ve never felt any oppression from a Muslim. I live in a Muslim Community, I’m openly not Muslim, I know the local
Imam. We even had debates in some of my Law Classes with Muslims over the cartoons. Rather civil, polite conversations. I
have never in my life lived in a nice area than the one I live in now.

Nice sidestep, I like how you completely failed to mention the photos. I said have you NEVER SEEN Muslims trying to prevent you
speaking your mind - you didn’t even mention those photos, which clearly show Muslims who are trying to stifle freedom of
speech! "Death to those who insult Islam"

Take your blinders off Odium - the pictures are right in front of you.

President George W. Bush is a Christian. Do I really need to point out how many people have died in Iraq because of his
actions? If all Muslims are responsible for all of their actions, all Christians are too. As per-normal, more death at
present is on the hands of Non-Muslims than Muslims.

I love how the anti Bush brigade makes out as if George Bush runs America like a dictatorship. Newsflash mate - Republican AND
Democrat Senators and Congressmen voted to support the war in Iraq, George Bush didn’t do it alone.

Heres an interesting piece of info for you:

From wikipedia

in November 1998, at the urging of President Bill Clinton, the U.S. House of Representatives and the US Senate passed the
"Iraq Liberation Act of 1998," [17] which "declare[d] that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam
Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government." This bill was signed into law by President
Clinton.

Wow that mean old nasty George Bush thought up Iraq all by himself didn’t he.

Try and paint it off as Muslim violence against other Muslims. However, anyone with a brain knows that these terrorist attacks were not happening prior to the United State’s invading the country.

Oh no that’s right , the Sunni’s and the shi-ites lived in perfect peace and harmony with each other. Saddaam Hussein only killed a few hundred thousand, but anyone with half a brain knows that doesn’t count...

Furthermore, the United State’s did bomb buildings which resulted in the loss of civilian life - the United State’s just paints them as collateral damage. Would you like it if I did the same to the victims of September the 11th? They were just
collateral damage in an attack on the United State’s. It can’t be one way and not the other.

It is not even the same thing. The United states bombed buildings yes - in the pursuit of terrorists and insurgents.

For you to compare Muslim Extremists Flying a civilian Airliner packed with innocent people into a purely CIVILIAN building for the express purpose of killing innocent civilians and spreading fear, and the US led forces (who are not all Christian I might add) inadvertedly killing civilians while undertaking military action against armed and dangerous insurgents - is disgusting and childish.

You can not honestly believe that your comparison is a true representation of reality - and if you truly believe that it is then your anti-government, anti-Bush sentiments have clouded your decency and your perspective on what was a devastatingly brutal terrorist attack.

Calling the 9/11 casualties "collateral damage" is just contemptible. Collateral damage from what target? What Military target were the terrorists attacking? What government agency? What government official? The civilians killed on 9/11 CAN NOT be called collateral damage because THEY WERE THE MULSIM EXTREMISTS' TARGET.

You just made me laugh.
I do hope you know, Sahih Bukhari is not a text within the Qu’ran?

Yes I do, that’s why I said 'from the Qu'ran and ISLAMIC SCHOLARLY BOOKS'.

In fact, they’re only believed by Ahl ul-Sunna Muslims and not all of those believe in it either.

And you can speak for every Muslim who has ever read those passages can you?

That’s like me saying "even though the bible says Jesus was the son of god, not all Christians believe it".

The rest of the thread is nothing more than idiotic mistranslations, as well as pulling the quotes out of context. Words like
fight, slaughter, etc, do not necessarily mean what you think they do. You’re as bad as the people who think Jihad means a
form of physical war, it means nothing of the sort.

Don’t give me that bull#. Do you people really expect us to believe that words like "Fight, slaughter, kill the infidels, slay them and flay their skin" can hold any other connotation than a violent one? Fight could mean struggle yes.

However words like 'Slaughter'? 'Kill'? How else can they be interpreted?

to be continued....

edit: fixed up quoting etc.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

continued from previous post...

It is because of the ignorance of people like you, that fanaticism is allowed to grow. You are no better than any of these radical imams when you try and paint off civilian casualties as nothing more than “collateral damage”. It is because of the actions of the United State’s that terrorism is growing. They trained people like Bin Laden in the hope they would use these tactics against the Russian’s. However the U.S.S.R. fell and the United State’s was the one who began to support regimes like the kings of Saudi Arabia who oppress Muslims.

Here we go, back to the "it’s not their fault its blah blahs fault". I’m sorry but where I come from, you take responsibility for your own actions. You don’t try to blame your own behavioural problems on Governments across the other side of the world.

And I take offense at being called ignorant simply for expressing my point of view. If you have to lower the conversation to insults to get your point across - I guess that just shows who the ignorant one really is.

While you have those in your country, in your administration, in power your Nation is no better than any Islamic Nation who oppresses its people. Just because you have freedoms at home does not mean your Government controls those in other Nation’s.

Nice assumption there - too bad I’m not American.

You support the puppet Governments of Saudi Arabia and many other Nations who are fuelled by oppression. Until the United State’s stops supporting them, it has no right to speak about a “War on Terrorism”. It has no right to speak about bring democracy, freedom and justice to Muslims.

Another assumption - incorrect again, I don’t support any of those governments. To be honest I couldn’t give a damn what they did. They don’t bother me (AN AUSTRALIAN), so I don’t bother them.

You did not listen and the blood of those innocents is on your Governments hands and the hands of anyone who voted them into power.

Wow you love making assumptions don’t you? Too bad they have all been wrong. Ah well, IGNORANCE is bliss. Aint it?


[edit on 18-9-2006 by Ezekiel]

The real problem is having any tolerance at all. Screw that. The time is over. At least conservative Muslims have the right idea and follow the exact doctrine of their scriptures. The aren't soft like moderate Christians who refuse to follow the exact word of the Bible, instead trying to be more tolerant of others. I say let the gloves come off! Let the holy wars begin, and the last group standing gets to hold sway over the rest of the freakin' world.

So, if you are a Muslim who does not behead infidels, or you are a Christian who does not destroy the towns of non-believers, accept the fact that you are probably going to hell for not following the true scriptures of your religion.

Until then, I would like to see fewer rabid Mohammedans on the tv screaming "Accept that we are the religion of peace or we will kill you all! Yaaaaaah!"

Originally posted by Ezekiel
My point, is that you dont have Priests and Bishops preaching messages of hate and violence to millions of Christians.

Well that's a good thing, because all this time, I thought people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Richard Rossi, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Garner Ted Armstrong, Jim Whittington, James Kennedy, and John Hagee preached hate against homosexuality, Islam, people who support abortion, Palestine, and other religions.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Well that's a good thing, because all this time, I thought people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Richard Rossi, Rod Parsley, Benny Hinn, Paul Crouch, Garner Ted Armstrong, Jim Whittington, James Kennedy, and John Hagee preached hate against homosexuality, Islam, and other religions.
[edit on 18-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Yes but when was the last time they told a Christian to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it in a crowded public area?

It just doesnt happen. They might have extreme views on gays, Islam and other religions - however I have never heard of any cases of them advocating violence against them.

Cant say the same thing about (some) Islamic Clerics.