Site found in Mexico cartel drug cave pushes American habitation back to 30,000 years.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

...

I believe you're thinking of Kennewick Man, which IIRC was found in a cave on the coast of Washington State. He was eventually identified as being most closely related to the Ainu (the indigenous people of Japan).

Ultimately, the idea that there were people in North America before the Native Americans was just way too politically incorrect to discuss, so Kennewick Man was buried, literally & figuratively.


...

Relationship with the Ainu: only if size was excluded (in a 2000 study):

Chatters et al. conducted a graphic comparison, including size, of Kennewick Man to eighteen modern populations. They found Kennewick Man to be most closely related to the Ainu, an ancient indigenous people of Japan. However, when size was excluded as a factor, no association to any population was established

Then, about fifteen years later:

In June 2015, it was made public that scientists at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark determined through DNA from 8,500‑year-old bones that Kennewick Man is, in fact, related to modern Native Americans, including the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation from the region in which his bones were found ...(en.wikipedia.org...)

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan
(Christ, if they could get as far as Hawaii & Easter Island in what were basically canoes, what could stop them from going all the way to the Americas?)

Distance.... There is nothing between Hawaii and Easter islands until the Americas. Its 2000 miles of open ocean with zero clue there is anything in front of them. The Vikings would go about 200 miles before they would stop for a week or so to regroup, so think about 2000 miles at 3 miles per hour or less in open seas. That is months of food and water needed.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan
(Christ, if they could get as far as Hawaii & Easter Island in what were basically canoes, what could stop them from going all the way to the Americas?)

Distance.... There is nothing between Hawaii and Easter islands until the Americas.

Chilean Juan Fernandez Islands, 1,850 km (1,150 mi) to the east, and also the Islas Desventuradas, plus there is another small island near Easter Island but barely inhabitable. The map shows this:

i.imgur.com...

Although there is no evidence that the island has ever been permanently inhabited, Easter Islanders were certainly aware of its existence, as indicated by the pre-European name of the island. Tradition says that the island was occasionally visited to collect fledglings and eggs.Their name for it was Motu Motiro Hiva.

a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

Welp, there goes clovis first lol

originally posted by: Iconic
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

Welp, there goes clovis first lol

Clovis first as a dominant theory ended when the first 'before' date was found. The fringe seems to believe (oddly) that it still is the consensus - it is not - and hasn't been for many years. Monte Verde in northern Chile was discovered in 1997 and accepted fully in 2008. That ended Clovis First.

upload.wikimedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Hanslune

Although there is no evidence that the island has ever been permanently inhabited, Easter Islanders were certainly aware of its existence, as indicated by the pre-European name of the island. Tradition says that the island was occasionally visited to collect fledglings and eggs.Their name for it was Motu Motiro Hiva.

I agree maybe 1500 2000 years ago, not 30,000. I think it was about 4000 years ago when humans started to venture in that direction.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Hanslune

Although there is no evidence that the island has ever been permanently inhabited, Easter Islanders were certainly aware of its existence, as indicated by the pre-European name of the island. Tradition says that the island was occasionally visited to collect fledglings and eggs.Their name for it was Motu Motiro Hiva.

I agree maybe 1500 2000 years ago, not 30,000. I think it was about 4000 years ago when humans started to venture in that direction.

www.costellohsie.info...

Map showing the current dates for Polynesian arrival at various points in the Pacific. Subject to change based on new info. It doesn't include the finding of SA DNA in Polynesia a few years ago but that hasn't been confirmed yet.

a reply to: Hanslune

The archeologists that were able to show Clovis in America, many were his friends and he got a lot of information from them as well as they got ideas from him. He is absolutely not the "Fringe folks screaming stuff on websites and Youtube " He is a very well respected researcher and author. And, what the hell are you trying to insinuate with a rude comment like "Am I aware of that..."?

You need to chill a bit, and start respecting people for their contributions to the world. Without people like Graham, most people today would not even know what "Paleo" means, let alone write books about all of the fantastically interesting subjects that he historically mastered, over these years. Many of his subjects were indeed once fringe, and almost none are today. He stands the test of time.

originally posted by: Thrumbo
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

How do you preserve meat 30,000 years ago? Killing large animals provides a lot of food, but its a small group of people. You don't even have salt back then (or do you?) and temps are high. Sun dry it into rancid jerky?

It is called pemmican, Google it.

But there was no dentistry or tooth paste.

Ummm... so, what is your point?

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: BernnieJGato
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

i'm thinking, not sure where i saw it, i'll have to see if i can find it, but the article said there is a place in Canada, U.S. border that remains and artifacts date back older than 15,000 years.

been a while, but it was basically about supporting the land bridge migration theory.

Did you mean Peace River Basin?

Now this is interesting! Basically, these guys studied the conditions that would have existed in Alaska at the time the land bridge existed, to see if it would even have been capable of supporting a human population. After all, the ancient people wouldn't have been making any kind of purposeful commute. They would have been living in eastern Siberia, and just gradually spread into Alaska and then further east & south. If the land bridge wasn't capable of sustaining human life, then the idea that it could have served as a bridge to North America must be false.

Their conclusion: The land bridge would have been uninhabitable until at least a few hundred years after humans were already known to be in North America! It couldn't have been the route humans used to reach the Americas.

originally posted by: charlyv
a reply to: Hanslune

The archeologists that were able to show Clovis in America, many were his friends and he got a lot of information from them as well as they got ideas from him. He is absolutely not the "Fringe folks screaming stuff on websites and Youtube " He is a very well respected researcher and author. And, what the hell are you trying to insinuate with a rude comment like "Am I aware of that..."?

You need to chill a bit, and start respecting people for their contributions to the world. Without people like Graham, most people today would not even know what "Paleo" means, let alone write books about all of the fantastically interesting subjects that he historically mastered, over these years. Many of his subjects were indeed once fringe, and almost none are today. He stands the test of time.

Without people like Graham we'd have better educated people who understood science instead of distrusting it and who give money to people who lie to them. Graham is a great writer. I liked his first books, but they are full of sheer non-scientific nonsense, he is an excellent fiction writer. In his latest book he states he isn't going to present any evidence, because he doesn't have any, what he has are interesting 'visions', thoughts, beliefs, and wishes. Those unfortunately are not evidence of what he believes in.

Many of his subjects were indeed once fringe, and almost none are today. He stands the test of time.

Okay demonstrate please.

Start with his first book where he places the lost world wide, 'enigmatic, ancient, advanced civilization' in Antarctica and in his latest, America Before: The Key to Earth's Lost Civilization where he places it in North America?

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Thrumbo
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

How do you preserve meat 30,000 years ago? Killing large animals provides a lot of food, but its a small group of people. You don't even have salt back then (or do you?) and temps are high. Sun dry it into rancid jerky?

It is called pemmican, Google it.

But there was no dentistry or tooth paste.

Ummm... so, what is your point?

Yep smoked and dried meat and some may learned to put some foods in cold water, or in ice and few perhaps understood how salt worked too.

news.umich.edu...

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: BernnieJGato
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

i'm thinking, not sure where i saw it, i'll have to see if i can find it, but the article said there is a place in Canada, U.S. border that remains and artifacts date back older than 15,000 years.

been a while, but it was basically about supporting the land bridge migration theory.

Did you mean Peace River Basin?

Now this is interesting! Basically, these guys studied the conditions that would have existed in Alaska at the time the land bridge existed, to see if it would even have been capable of supporting a human population. After all, the ancient people wouldn't have been making any kind of purposeful commute. They would have been living in eastern Siberia, and just gradually spread into Alaska and then further east & south. If the land bridge wasn't capable of sustaining human life, then the idea that it could have served as a bridge to North America must be false.

Their conclusion: The land bridge would have been uninhabitable until at least a few hundred years after humans were already known to be in North America! It couldn't have been the route humans used to reach the Americas.

That and other aspects point to a coastal route.

originally posted by: Hanslune


Clovis first as a dominant theory ended when the first 'before' date was found. The fringe seems to believe (oddly) that it still is the consensus - it is not - and hasn't been for many years. Monte Verde in northern Chile was discovered in 1997 and accepted fully in 2008. That ended Clovis First.

Its like people keep wanting to debate Darwin against creation...

originally posted by: Hanslune

Yep smoked and dried meat and some may learned to put some foods in cold water, or in ice and few perhaps understood how salt worked too.

I wonder what happens if you soak meat in the ocean for a day before curing it.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: BernnieJGato
a reply to: TheAlleghenyGentleman

i'm thinking, not sure where i saw it, i'll have to see if i can find it, but the article said there is a place in Canada, U.S. border that remains and artifacts date back older than 15,000 years.

been a while, but it was basically about supporting the land bridge migration theory.

Did you mean Peace River Basin?

Now this is interesting! Basically, these guys studied the conditions that would have existed in Alaska at the time the land bridge existed, to see if it would even have been capable of supporting a human population. After all, the ancient people wouldn't have been making any kind of purposeful commute. They would have been living in eastern Siberia, and just gradually spread into Alaska and then further east & south. If the land bridge wasn't capable of sustaining human life, then the idea that it could have served as a bridge to North America must be false.

Their conclusion: The land bridge would have been uninhabitable until at least a few hundred years after humans were already known to be in North America! It couldn't have been the route humans used to reach the Americas.

That and other aspects point to a coastal route.

Makes sense. We're talking about a time when the artic ice caps have just receded from that area. Logically, the land should have been pretty much like Greenland: no plant life worth speaking of, and the animals would be things like seals, walruses, and puffins that depend on the sea for their existence.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

Their conclusion: The land bridge would have been uninhabitable until at least a few hundred years after humans were already known to be in North America! It couldn't have been the route humans used to reach the Americas.

So then how did humans get here 1000s of years before then? That is the part I do not like with their theory as they say the easiest way for a large group of people to move was impossible.

What I didn't read was any mention to Beringia that opened up like over 600,000 sq miles of land due to the drop in the oceans that would have been not part of the unmanageable massive ice sheets. This would allow humans to migrate in the 1000s around 20000+ years ago and then to lose that crossing area with the rise in the oceans once again for 1000s of years until a second much larger wave around 13,000 years ago was able to cross after the ice sheets melted enough to do so.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Hanslune

Yep smoked and dried meat and some may learned to put some foods in cold water, or in ice and few perhaps understood how salt worked too.

I wonder what happens if you soak meat in the ocean for a day before curing it.

You catch Jaws.

Harte

a reply to: Xtrozero

The rowing would be adding speed, the key would be travelling at the right times at the right places. The equitoral counter current would lead you to Mexico...
There's other currents too.

The currents, especially the one I mentioned would be a food source in of itself, birds and sea life use them when you'd want to be using them.

It's possible, whether it was done or not idk. The Polynesians knew where they were on the ocean and they knew how to follow the roads so to speak. Water is the main issue.

Hypothetically if such travellers used more southern or northern currents and timed them right they'd find "floating wells" of water or a wall of the stuff. I know... Daft but if you're desperate for a drink you might lick an iceberg or something. Just throwing it out there lol.

There'd be other problems with colder climates but it would enhance shelf life of foods.

originally posted by: RAY1990

The rowing would be adding speed, the key would be travelling at the right times at the right places. The equitoral counter current would lead you to Mexico...
There's other currents too.

I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm saying they didn't row there 30,000 years ago from Polynesia. Those islands were like the last places humans finally went to.

The currents, especially the one I mentioned would be a food source in of itself, birds and sea life use them when you'd want to be using them.

I really do not know how viable open ocean fishing would be for them, or what tools they would have to consider it. Catching birds too 500 miles from land is kind of iffy.

It's possible, whether it was done or not idk. The Polynesians knew where they were on the ocean and they knew how to follow the roads so to speak. Water is the main issue.

I agree maybe 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, but not 30,000...no one was there. They also didn't know of anything past that point and would need to row or drift for a 1000 miles or more to get lucky with a couple of atolls. There is Polynesian DNA in SA, so yes at some point they went there, but there isn't any in Mexico too.

Hypothetically if such travellers used more southern or northern currents and timed them right they'd find "floating wells" of water or a wall of the stuff. I know... Daft but if you're desperate for a drink you might lick an iceberg or something. Just throwing it out there lol.

Well also, how viable would the numbers be to not be like, lets say, the Vikings who never really established much though they got to America before 1492 with some good numbers to boot. Are we talking a 100 people all floating on the ocean or 6 in a canoe with a couple of other ones in tow. What is the survival rate to suggest many attempts to have one actually make it? What was the population of the world back then to push people to do that? What was the population in northern China during the ice age? I bet in all cases not very much.

Then we are back to the issue that Easter Island is rather new in human existence there. If you said they found evidence that humans went to Easter island 3000 years ago, I would say wow that is crazy old for the area, so suggesting Polynesians rowed to SA 30,000 years ago I would say there is zero to support that to even start hardly past the PI 30,000 years ago.

The whole boat thing is just not viable... Now, could humans have come here 20,000 years ago across Beringia that would not be part of the great ice sheets? Yes, and they did. We need numbers too, not one boat, but 1000s of people. So it was possible 20,000 years ago to have Beringia for 1000s of years as a bridge, but then that route would disappear once ice started to melt sealing off the Americas as the oceans started to rise back up. Then about 13,000 years ago a new opening happened as the great ice sheets retreated and humans in greater numbers could once again come across in the 1000s.

If people want to easily throw around 30,000 to 50,000 years I do not think that they have really thought about it all at any level and just believe because they want to.