Bad analogy imo,i dont think God cares one iota for politians and the like,but FEAR? you only need to fear Him and not what other`s say you should fear.

This is exactly my point. GOD doesn't give a hoot about politicians. However, he does give a hoot when one segment of society uses another segment to instill FEAR about the other. Then to have the segment instilling fear to act like they have some sort of inside track on GOD is really quite an interesting paradox. Not a bad analogy at all.

Christianity teaches the FEAR of GOD. There is no need to FEAR GOD.

Originally posted by saint4God
This fact appears not to apply to me. Sorry, but I wasn't a Bible-fed child (though it might've helped me figure out what was happening later on).

so why then do you believe biblical myths if you only knew about them from adulthood. or perhaps, do you not literally believe there was a talking snake?

I think this is an excellent point...and the buck stops here. My kid has never believed santa exists, and yes, she is normal. She still gets presents and is equally happy ripping them open with Mom & Dad listed as the gift-giver.

i wasn't trying to point out that all kids believe in santa claus. i was pointing out that believing in a fat man in a white and red suit, with flying magic randeer, delivering presents and coming down your chimney was merely as believable as a myth like noah's ark or adam & eve.

Though I'd like to hear it, I'll throw in my 2 cents. Santa never did anything for me. God gave me eternal life (as well as a rescue from self-destruction). It's that simple, really.

well if you ever see an adult dress up in a santa costume and see the look on children's faces, then maybe you'd change your mind. and that's just someone's parent dressing up in a lame costume that brings happiness, which also keeps the santa myth alive for children by having something physical. ofcourse when you're older you know it was just your dad or your uncle in a costume but it doesn't take away the happy memories. there's no harm in believing in santa when you're a kid, but as an adult you know it's just a story and myth that holds no truth whatsoever.

I don't think the bedtime story of Santa was ever represented as truth from adult to adult. If you're saying that Santa is a conspiracy against children, I'll agree.

ofcourse it's not represented as truth from adult to adult. but have you ever heard some parents say 'be good or santa won't bring you any presents'. it's like an ultimatum...be good or else. the same as believe in jesus and you will be saved, otherwise you go to hell...believe in santa and you will get presents. it's that same age old be good and recieve something in return.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so why then do you believe biblical myths if you only knew about them from adulthood. or perhaps, do you not literally believe there was a talking snake?

In meeting the devil, and coming to know God, my understanding of possible vs. impossible was redefined. Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26) and found this to be the case. I have found though that God is consistent, which is nice because it's hard to hold to a standard that changes.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i wasn't trying to point out that all kids believe in santa claus. i was pointing out that believing in a fat man in a white and red suit, with flying magic randeer, delivering presents and coming down your chimney was merely as believable as a myth like noah's ark or adam & eve.

I believe most people would have to experience God in order to accept noah's ark and adam & eve.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well if you ever see an adult dress up in a santa costume and see the look on children's faces, then maybe you'd change your mind. and that's just someone's parent dressing up in a lame costume that brings happiness, which also keeps the santa myth alive for children by having something physical. ofcourse when you're older you know it was just your dad or your uncle in a costume but it doesn't take away the happy memories.

There are no "parents" for adults to dress up as God to fool us.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
there's no harm in believing in santa when you're a kid,

Actually there is, and you've made that point quite clear here.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but as an adult you know it's just a story and myth that holds no truth whatsoever.

There's that point again. If you lie to your kids, how can they know when you're telling the truth?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
ofcourse it's not represented as truth from adult to adult. but have you ever heard some parents say 'be good or santa won't bring you any presents'. it's like an ultimatum...be good or else. the same as believe in jesus and you will be saved, otherwise you go to hell...believe in santa and you will get presents. it's that same age old be good and recieve something in return.

Actually salvation is not determined by what you do. Sorry, but no amount of deeds will buy a person way into heaven. That DOES sounds like a myth, 'cause that ain't what the Book they're carrying says.

Originally posted by saint4God
There are no "parents" for adults to dress up as God to fool us.

they're not parents...they have a different names...'vicars' 'bishops' 'priest' 'the pope'...they do all the dressing up.

Actually there is, and you've made that point quite clear here.

maybe in the same way as children hold on to santa, adults and children also try to hold on to god however mythical it might sound.

There's that point again. If you lie to your kids, how can they know when you're telling the truth?

because the whole world is built on lies. simple lies like if you watch too much tv your eyes will go square. if you don't eat your vegetables you won't get any presents from santa. if you stare at the computer screen too much you'll go blind. what people are trying to do when they tell you this is to make you do 'more' of something like eat more vegetables, or do less of something like watch less tv. i don't think it's harmed me too much being told these little white lies, because i grow up and realise adults were just trying to do what was best for me. however, when christians grow up they grow up to carry on believing in 'lies' and 'fabrications' that the church fathers created. but, no one questions that, because if you question the bible, you're anti-religious...well i'm questioning it.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
they're not parents...they have a different names...'vicars' 'bishops' 'priest' 'the pope'...they do all the dressing up.

Sorry to hear people see these people in a parenting role. I go God and the Book. These days, I'll hang with a pastor for 1 1/2 hours Sunday morning who will point out some things I've read and give advice, but he not mah daddy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
maybe in the same way as children hold on to santa, adults and children also try to hold on to god however mythical it might sound.

It's valueless without an actual relationship.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

There's that point again. If you lie to your kids, how can they know when you're telling the truth?

because the whole world is built on lies. simple lies like if you watch too much tv your eyes will go square. if you don't eat your vegetables you won't get any presents from santa.

Again, it doesn't have to be that way. If/when we're parents, we should be strong enough to suck it up and tell the truth instead of building card houses to get through the moment or force obedience.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if you stare at the computer screen too much you'll go blind.

Actually my spouse acquired short-sightedness for too much computer screen time during the day...or so the doctor said.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
what people are trying to do when they tell you this is to make you do 'more' of something like eat more vegetables, or do less of something like watch less tv. i don't think it's harmed me too much being told these little white lies, because i grow up and realise adults were just trying to do what was best for me. however, when christians grow up they grow up to carry on believing in 'lies' and 'fabrications' that the church fathers created. but, no one questions that, because if you question the bible, you're anti-religious...

I disagree. I'm Christian and still have questions on the Bible.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
well i'm questioning it.

I think that's good! It has some very important answers. Keeping in mind though, that God isn't something that came and went. He's not ink in a book. Therefore do not limit the search for answers to just the Book. I'm the type of person who likes to go right to the source to find answers instead of beating around the bush. How about you?

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry to hear people see these people in a parenting role. I go God and the Book. These days, I'll hang with a pastor for 1 1/2 hours Sunday morning who will point out some things I've read and give advice, but he not mah daddy.

but they are the parents of the church. they're the people, as you say, you go for advice and help. they might not literally be your 'daddy', but it's nice to know they are there. the same as god is always there. perhaps furthering why people would be part of the church as god and the church parents are always there, for some people that's more than their actual parents would ever be in their lives. so maybe they're not looking for god or jesus, but just someone who is there in their lives to help them, whether that's a physical or spiritual person then so be it.

Again, it doesn't have to be that way. If/when we're parents, we should be strong enough to suck it up and tell the truth instead of building card houses to get through the moment or force obedience.

i guess your 'daughter' (i'm sure it was daughter), was the one at school who told the other kids santa didn't exist. in fact they probably would have laughed it off, saying 'he is true, my mummy says so'. i understand where you're coming from. as i'm not a parent myself maybe i'll find out more sometime in the future. but i know that however little a lie might be, if you tell it to your children, how in the world can you ever tell them lying is wrong. you're supposed to set examples. but what you do by making small lies, is teaching your children how to lie, which is actually a very twisted part of growing up nowadays. children from a young age learn to lie. such as, mum: 'did you eat one of those cookies'... son: 'no...' just simple lies, nothing like a story to back up why they didn't eat, but soon they'll have the stories to go with their lies until they are adults who can lie almost perfectly. so i'm sure somehow parent's lying, however small they may be, possibly have an affect on their children lying.

Actually my spouse acquired short-sightedness for too much computer screen time during the day...or so the doctor said.

so sometimes i guess parents are telling the truth, even though they just wanted you to spend less time infront of the tv or computer. i do actually have trouble reading from a distance, sure hope that's not my short-sightedness.

I disagree. I'm Christian and still have questions on the Bible.

i think there's no point in your life when you wouldn't have a question about the bible. do you believe that when egyptians mummified their dead, put them in a tomb, that they then went to the afterlife? because that is what they truly believed, afterall they built perhaps the greatest monuments of time to house some of the most important people who died. yet, today their belief system is very much dead, and taught as ancient history. but, to the egyptians it was all so real. the same as your beliefs in christianity are all so real today. the question is, at what point in time will christianity be taught in the same way the ancient greek or egyptian gods are taught? i think it's not if, but when, it is most certainly an inevitable outcome. the only way this wouldn't happen is jesus coming back...so he better get his skates on.

Sorry, I've been too busy to persecute you lately, I've been busy masterminding other conspiracies.

Back on topic...

So, anyone given up Christianity yet or do we need to turn the screws a little more? I suspect this outcry continues to be the last gasps of Christianity. Death throes and all that.

I seriously doubt the vast conspiracy against Christianity has actually emboldened or deepened anyone's faith? Right? No, you're all about to quit any minute now I'm sure.

Oh and I totally understand if today's anti-Christian environment precludes anyone from admitting they're Christian. So no worries. Your deep, dark secret is safe with me. Wouldn't want to ruin anyone's chances of running for leader of the free world or anything.

Back to the shadow's with you then! I think I hear a Jew coming.

[edit on 2-10-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by RANT
Oh and I totally understand if today's anti-Christian environment precludes anyone from admitting they're Christian. So no worries. Your deep, dark secret is safe with me. Wouldn't want to ruin anyone's chances of running for leader of the free world or anything.

I have to laugh everytime I hear that expression. The sheep are too busy being fleeced to even recognize the contradiction of terms.

But you're right that the very premise of this thread is a joke. Christianity has historcially spread by force. Now that the threat of violence is subsiding, it's finally startng to collapsing from its own absurdity, not because of some vast anti-Christian conspiracy. It's only very recently (from a historic perspective) that it was even possible to voice heresy in the open without legal consequences. But even today it takes guts to openly admit that you think Christianity is stupid. You're likely to get pummeled or your home/car vandalized by the "righteous".

Originally posted by shaunybaby
but they are the parents of the church. they're the people, as you say, you go for advice and help. they might not literally be your 'daddy', but it's nice to know they are there. the same as god is always there. perhaps furthering why people would be part of the church as god and the church parents are always there, for some people that's more than their actual parents would ever be in their lives. so maybe they're not looking for god or jesus, but just someone who is there in their lives to help them, whether that's a physical or spiritual person then so be it.

That's weird. I mean, I guess that could happen, but haven't experienced this myself. God is the only Father I really needed spiritually.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i guess your 'daughter' (i'm sure it was daughter), was the one at school who told the other kids santa didn't exist.

Hehe, I taught her to respect the beliefs of others. Right after she got her answer, I said, "now it's not for you to tell other people what they should and shouldn't believe. They have their parents who are responsible for answering their questions.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
in fact they probably would have laughed it off, saying 'he is true, my mummy says so'. i understand where you're coming from. as i'm not a parent myself maybe i'll find out more sometime in the future. but i know that however little a lie might be, if you tell it to your children, how in the world can you ever tell them lying is wrong.

Exactly!

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you're supposed to set examples. but what you do by making small lies, is teaching your children how to lie, which is actually a very twisted part of growing up nowadays. children from a young age learn to lie. such as, mum: 'did you eat one of those cookies'... son: 'no...' just simple lies, nothing like a story to back up why they didn't eat, but soon they'll have the stories to go with their lies until they are adults who can lie almost perfectly. so i'm sure somehow parent's lying, however small they may be, possibly have an affect on their children lying.

You speak wisely sir. *chinese bow*

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so sometimes i guess parents are telling the truth, even though they just wanted you to spend less time infront of the tv or computer.

I guess if one fires enough shots, they're bound to hit a target sometime. Why can't a parent just say, "You've spent too much time in front of the computer/tv. Please turn it off for a while. You can go back to it later/tomorrow." ?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i do actually have trouble reading from a distance, sure hope that's not my short-sightedness.

Doc could probably tell. My spouse spend over 12 hours a day on there for a few years.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think there's no point in your life when you wouldn't have a question about the bible.

Woot.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you believe that when egyptians mummified their dead, put them in a tomb, that they then went to the afterlife?

Hm... I'm thinking they are going to an afterlife. How each one will judged beyond their deeds, I do not know. It looks like a very uphill trial though, given mankind's nature.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
because that is what they truly believed, afterall they built perhaps the greatest monuments of time to house some of the most important people who died. yet, today their belief system is very much dead, and taught as ancient history. but, to the egyptians it was all so real. the same as your beliefs in christianity are all so real today. the question is, at what point in time will christianity be taught in the same way the ancient greek or egyptian gods are taught?

I don't know how that would affects either of us. All that matters is what's true.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think it's not if, but when, it is most certainly an inevitable outcome. the only way this wouldn't happen is jesus coming back...so he better get his skates on.

It sounds to me like most of the world will already be 'lost' by the time that return happens. So, I suppose there will be a waning, then before it disappears from the hearts and minds of mankind, then his return would occur. That's just speculation and deduction from Revelation since, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

The anti-Christian sentiment that is expressed by all the groups with differing beliefs about reality is very blatant. If it were a real conspiracy, I would not expect to see so much obvious critical commentary. In any area of life, it is common to see that the group perceived to be at or near the top of the ladder gets the most attention. It was explained to me once that the higher one goes up the ladder, the more of their rear end is exposed. If it comes to pass that atheists one day appear to be the group in charge, then they will become the new targets of all the attacks. Being criticized is by no means something Christianity endures alone. There is no group immune to accusations, and no group is the exclusive target being attacked. It may appear that Christianity gets more negative press merely because they are the biggest target. You never hear about people criticizing Zoroastrianism for the same reason.

Originally posted by saint4God
I guess if one fires enough shots, they're bound to hit a target sometime. Why can't a parent just say, "You've spent too much time in front of the computer/tv. Please turn it off for a while. You can go back to it later/tomorrow."?

that would make sense. trying to remember what my mum would say if i was ever watching tv too much or playing the computer. i probably wasn't on much, just when i got home from school for an hour or so, but most of the time i'd be outside anyways. that's maybe the problem, that kids just aren't outside enough today. i grew up right at the point where computer consoles were big, started of with nes, snes, n64 and so on. however, that didn't really stop me from wanting to go out. the problem today is that these consoles take over kids lives, and we're breeding a load of obese diabetic kids

I don't know how that would affects either of us. All that matters is what's true.

true. but, christianity is 'true' today, like the egyptian gods were 'true' yesterday. what's 'true' tomorrow...we will have to wait and see.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
that would make sense. trying to remember what my mum would say if i was ever watching tv too much or playing the computer. i probably wasn't on much, just when i got home from school for an hour or so, but most of the time i'd be outside anyways. that's maybe the problem, that kids just aren't outside enough today. i grew up right at the point where computer consoles were big, started of with nes, snes, n64 and so on. however, that didn't really stop me from wanting to go out. the problem today is that these consoles take over kids lives, and we're breeding a load of obese diabetic kids

My mom did say "get outside and play!" and I usually answered, "But there's nothing to do, it's so boooorrrrring." She'd call me by my full name, tell me to get off the game or tv, and do it. So, I did begrugingly. Interestingly enough in my early teens I was an obese diabetic kid. Well, not diabetic really, but did eat too many snack foods and candy bars.

So there ya have it folks, from both sides of the fence. Get your kids outside as much as you can, it'll do them a lot of good.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
true. but, christianity is 'true' today, like the egyptian gods were 'true' yesterday.

Were they? I've not read many accounts of egyptians having a personal relationship with their gods. Not saying I'm well read in the topic as I could be though. I'd be intersted in what their gods had to say. Greek mythology though, I have heard what they said. None of it is "good", and all seemed to be by famous playwrights who seemed to be more intersted in writing an entertainment piece than scripture. Also, for some reason, these very seem Greeks found truth in Jesus' teachings and abandoned those beliefs. Were they forced to?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
what's 'true' tomorrow...we will have to wait and see.

No problem. I'll check back with ya tomorrow

My mom did say "get outside and play!" and I usually answered, "But there's nothing to do, it's so boooorrrrring." She'd call me by my full name, tell me to get off the game or tv, and do it. So, I did begrugingly. Interestingly enough in my early teens I was an obese diabetic kid. Well, not diabetic really, but did eat too many snack foods and candy bars.

So there ya have it folks, from both sides of the fence. Get your kids outside as much as you can, it'll do them a lot of good.

Reminds me of my oldest son. Grew up playing on the computer. Mocked at school because of weight(300lbs) Went into deep depression.

However, he rallied and lost all of his weight. He has now graduated from college, is now attending police officer training school, and is now a svelte 210lbs of muscle.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Reminds me of my oldest son. Grew up playing on the computer. Mocked at school because of weight(300lbs) Went into deep depression.

Sounds familiar. I gained 40 lbs and couldn't even run to the refrigerator in a race to the last candy bar without being deeply winded. It does take its toll self-esteem wise.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
However, he rallied and lost all of his weight. He has now graduated from college, is now attending police officer training school, and is now a svelte 210lbs of muscle.

Excellent story of victory , glad you could share that. For me, it wasn't until 5 years ago when I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I cut saturated fats from my diet down to about or under 20% daily allowance per meal (as I learned about these thing in all the biology classes) and exercised 15 minutes of cardio everyday. Lost for 40 lbs, kept them off and joined Kung-Fu 2 years ago. Looks like the FDA was right about diet and exercise.

One of the benefits of having oneself in order is it gives a person more time and thought towards being with and helping other people in general. There's not that self-esteem hit that inhibits doing group or social activities.

Now that mass of muscle part...still working on that


[edit on 4-10-2005 by saint4God]

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

5 million worshippers, makes me think they're not doing this to get more people inside their doors. That's quite a number of faithful catholics. If they are, then it makes them greedy...and we all know what that is.

''They should not expect total accuracy'', then how much accuracy should they expect? is the bible 95% accurate, 5% accurate...or even 0%.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

If the church themselves are now teaching that parts of the bible are innacurate, then genesis is no closer to being taught along-side evolution, as an alternative theory, in science or any other subject. The article even goes on to say that the church doesn't think that genesis is historically accurate.

I'm not really sure to think of it, for people over 2000 years have taken the whole bible as truth, but now to say 'sorry guys, some of it might not be true. yeah even genesis probably isn't historically accurate'.

To me it just seems like maybe the bible is only 5% accurate. I never believed or trusted in the bible before hand...this won't enthuse people to pick up the bible for the first time. if anything it will push people away.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
''They should not expect total accuracy'', then how much accuracy should they expect? is the bible 95% accurate, 5% accurate...or even 0%.

This is the whole reason Bible idolaters who think about it end up as inerrantists or atheists. If you accept that there are errors in the Bible, then you have no way of knowing where lies end and truth begins. Liberal Christians sidestep this by just making up whatever they want to believe and claiming faith and "personal experience" as their justification.

The orthodox churches sidestep it, because they claim the church itself as god's authority on earth rather than the Bible.

Bible-centric sects end up following the unbiblical inerrancy doctrine not because 2 Timothy proves the Bible inerrant, but because the admission of any error calls into question the entire meme if the Bible is the final authority.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Ok, Saint, you asked for it...

Erm, what'd I ask for again?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Homosexuals. Any public criticism of homosexuals will soon be considered a hate crime, just as it was for 11 Christians under the Pennsylvania hate crime law on Oct. 10, 2004. These Christians were arrested as “hate criminals” for preaching during a huge “gay pride” rally and faced 47 years in prison and $80,000 fines each.

I thought they were arrested for rioting and physical obstruction. Was I reading a different article? I don't recall hearing of the reason because of words. I thought the pictures of the 'roundup' were most interesting.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Women. A woman who claims her boyfriend used a sexist word against her and raped her the last time they had sex, can press charges for a “hate crime” of rape. Punishment will triple the usual penalty, about 30 years in prison.

So you're saying the 'sexist word' was the crime and not the rape?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Jews. Already the Dept. of Global Anti-semitism, being established in the US State Dept., makes it “anti-semitic” to express “strong anti-Israel sentiment” against Israel or its leaders. It also says upholding the New Testament charge that Jews killed Christ is “anti-semitic.” Under “anti-hate” laws in Canada and Europe, such statements are “hate crimes” punishable by harsh fines and imprisonment.

Uh, the Jews didn't kill Christ, we all did, but whatever. Send me to jail, not giving up my Book. Still don't know why you'd be glad to see me go and find it most unloving of a person.

Originally posted by truthseeka
So, there you go, Mr. "'Truthfinda' is making this up." I LOVE how you totally disregarded the meat of my post and focused on how I'm going to laugh when y'all realize the truth. What a shame.

I tend to follow news pretty closely. I don't see Christians being thrown in jail for what they say. Else, I'd be there right now for talking about the good news. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Must feel good to practice doublethink while you accuse others of perpetrating a conspiracy against you, all the while blinding yourself to the REAL conspirators...

This looks like good support for an Anti-Christian Conspiracy. Well done.

[edit on 10-10-2005 by saint4God]