It is as popluar to be anti-christian as it is to be anti-Bush. Tho one really dont have nothing to do with another... imo.

According to the Bible that is what should happen, so it should not suprise anyone, should it ?

and true ...on Present days , Chritianity is not the religion with worse "human rights" infringements, ther are religions out there that stone women to death, decapitate gays, sow women vaginas in order to give man more pleasure, but amanzingly enough those are consider "peacefull"... well... what can I say?

also i think the hatred against Christians, also comes from people who may have been victims of some Catholic and Protestant sects as well as of cults that use the Bible, Jesus and God as an excuse to have their way.

when you look at TV preachers and TV shows like TBN channel, it is pretty easy to understand how some people could lead themselves to hate what they think Christianity is, because thats whats beeing shown to them and there is noone around correcting it.

Originally posted by gps777
Saint4God

What truthseeka is talking about will eventually be enevitable,

Is it? "The look on your faces" sounds like something that would happen in both of our lifetimes and my Book says no one except the Father will know the hour of Christ's coming, nor do I see details of our imprisonment in there.

Originally posted by gps777
which is what i was speaking of with the Police link i gave you,who do you think will enforce these type of Laws?,its not an attack on the person inside the uniform but it is for those who order them to enforce them.order out of chaos my Bro and the time is drawing near.

Our individual "last day" can be today, driving home from work/school. That means you and I have a lot of work to do and can't depend on tomorrow to get busy. Why then does the end of all humanity cause more concern? Are going to "hurry up and save everybody"? Lot of good it will do then. How much faith does for someone to believe in God when God is looking right at them?

I'm with you my friend, just offering some food for thought.


[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
when you look at TV preachers and TV shows like TBN channel, it is pretty easy to understand how some people could lead themselves to hate what they think Christianity is, because thats whats beeing shown to them and there is noone around correcting it.

I think it'd be beneficial if you could make some recommendations on how to correct it. I'm sure step 1 would be for me to watch those programs (which I'd rather not. I think they're boring and sometimes political). As you can see from my interests under my username, I like things that move, pop, and are interesting. I don't believe heaven is going to be sitting on a wooden pew while droning out hymns that feel amazingly like yawning. Too each his/her own I guess, but I could be wrong. We had an alternative band come to our church about a month ago. It was one of the coolest concerts I've been to ^_^. Yes, Christianity can rock. It's built upon the Rock, how could it not?

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
also i think the hatred against Christians,

Don't confuse hatred of Christianity with hatred of Christians. The "anti-christian conspiracy" is not specifically anti-christian, but rather, anti-faith. It's also not a true conspiracy, but rather an awakening of sorts.

In the past, heritics and vocal apostates were trivialized, but around 40 years ago that began to change mostly as the result of the Vietnam war and the sexual revolution. It became acceptable, at least within certain circles, to admit your lack of faith, and the circles began to grow.

With the advent of the internet, those with dissenting views can voice them anonymously without reservation, and those who might never have heard the dissenting perspectives are more easily exposed to them. This has helped to free people from faith by the droves, to the point where unabashed apostasy is now the norm in many places.

Once you're free from faith, your perspective changes. Many apostates such as myself, see religion as a mental virus (meme) that has as its only true purpose the spread of itself. Those who have never been exposed to religion don't really know how personally destructive it is. Those infected don't realize it either, as the virus works to prohibit such revelation. It's really only those who have been infected and subsequently cured that can appreciate the need to actively attack the virus.

It's a humanitarian act to work toward freeing those you perceive to be enslaved.

Originally posted by gps777
Wow Shauny that was another big bitch and moan from you.
I lost what your point was from all the bitchin and moanin?

the point was to show that all christians seem to do is moan at the way non-christians do things. hence with the whole teaching ID in school arguement. do christians really feel that threatened that they have to try and force ID in to the school classroom? if ID was worth teaching, it would already be taught in school, yet it is not worth teaching, hence why it is not taught in school.

If you want to be respected then say something respectable,we as Christians try and emulate a life that Christ would like us to live and follow his teachings.

What has Christ done or said that is wrong and not respectable?

why did you suddenly switch to talking about jesus? i wasn't talking about jesus. i don't think i even mentioned his name...but here you are with this speech about trying to live your life how jesus would have wanted you to. were you purposely avoiding answering my questions about ID not being taught in school, or did you just feel like answering by saying some randomness about your life and jesus?

want to know what i think? that you also feel that teaching ID as an alternative theory in science would be just like teaching that the holocaust never happened in history, also as an 'alternative theory'. if that's not what you think then please, answer to my post, instead of commenting on your life, jesus and/or how i represent myself in my post.

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
It is as popluar to be anti-christian as it is to be anti-Bush. Tho one really dont have nothing to do with another... imo.

that's like saying 'all arabs are bad, all people from iraq are bad because that's where saddam was from'...imho. that fact is it doesn't make sense, and is neither here nor there. not that many people must hate bush because he was re-elected...that shows some sort of support! or did you just forget that he's now been elected twice as president, even after starting a war? it's not popular to be anti-christian, and just because someone doesn't have the same view as you doesn't mean they are anti-(insert religion or race here).

According to the Bible that is what should happen, so it should not suprise anyone, should it?

christians are not hated by all nor are many anti-christian, christianity is sometimes the focus of humour because it is infact 'laughable'. this does not prove that the bible is right in saying christians would be hated.

also i think the hatred against Christians, also comes from people who may have been victims of some Catholic and Protestant sects as well as of cults that use the Bible, Jesus and God as an excuse to have their way.

i think what people hate is when religion tries to interfere where it is not needed. for example, wanting ID taught in schools. especially as they want it taught by science teachers. what's the point in having 'science' teachers when religions and people who are non-scientists are going to tell them what to teach. why don't we just stick a vicar at the front of the classroom to read some sermens, some prayers, some nice stories of jesus etc...

when you look at TV preachers and TV shows like TBN channel, it is pretty easy to understand how some people could lead themselves to hate what they think Christianity is, because thats whats beeing shown to them and there is noone around correcting it.

i do hate those people, the same people that perform faith healing rallys, thus many innocent people die because of these wacky beliefs in these preachers and so called faith healers. i don't care how much you love your religion, prayers will not cure your son's diabetis!

the thing about christianity is that there are extremes. you have your bible literalists. your christians who believe in evolution and ID and that god set it all in motion. there are also so many sects and difference of 'how' you go about believing, that it is impossible to say that people hate 'christians'. because what is a christian? there can't be any one definition, as they all believe in different parts etc. this is fundalmentally the problem as it goes to show that even today we still don't know how to interpret these books.


[edit on 22-9-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by saint4God

I think it'd be beneficial if you could make some recommendations on how to correct it.

I have no idea... people choose to watch that baloney... and if anyone tries to tell them they are listening to wrong stuff, you'll have to deal with the " get behing me satan" kind of thing.

I'm sure step 1 would be for me to watch those programs (which I'd rather not. I think they're boring and sometimes political). As you can see from my interests under my username, I like things that move, pop, and are interesting. I don't believe heaven is going to be sitting on a wooden pew while droning out hymns that feel amazingly like yawning.

I sure hope thats not heaven, what a blunder that would be...lol

Once you're free from faith, your perspective changes. Many apostates such as myself, see religion as a mental virus (meme) that has as its only true purpose the spread of itself. Those who have never been exposed to religion don't really know how personally destructive it is. Those infected don't realize it either, as the virus works to prohibit such revelation. It's really only those who have been infected and subsequently cured that can appreciate the need to actively attack the virus.

My question is are you anti-"religious" or anti-GOD? There is a tremendous difference. I don't know perhaps you are not willing to acknowledge the difference that is why I ask.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
My question is are you anti-"religious" or anti-GOD? There is a tremendous difference. I don't know perhaps you are not willing to acknowledge the difference that is why I ask.

How can I be against nonexistent mythological entities? I can only be anti-religion, not anti-god.

Ok - first of all, I'm not anti-Christian, or anti-religious or anti-spiritual - I guess you could say I am anti-organized-religion.

I was raised Southern-Baptist, so no need to quote scripture to me - I've heard it all before.

If there's one thing I learned from my years of going to church, it's more about the money and social status than faith.

I don't "Hate" Christians, or any other religious people - I just have an extreme distaste for what they do and how they have twisted religion into what they want for their own purposes, usually greedy and "superiority" purposes.

I do not see how ANY religious group can take themselves seriously these days - I mean there are so many, how do you know which is the right one? - out of all these different religions, none of them has any REAL PROOF that theirs is correct or that whoever they worship even exists.

Don't throw the Bible at me as proof, or I'll throw "Goldilocks" at you as "proof" that bears were more advanced than humans in the past because they lived in houses, or "Cinderella" at you as proof that magic exists and can turn pumpkins into carriages and back into pumpkins at midnight. Those were STORIES - and just like the Bible and other religious texts, they HAVE been altered over the years to better "fit" society at the time. If most people knew how gruesome the original 'Goldilocks' was, nobody would EVER read it to their kids as a bedtime story - blood and guts everywhere, just to frighten kids in the middle ages so they wouldn't wander off in the woods or go into stranger's houses.

So - with that out of the way, How can anyone stand there and say that "what I believe is completely RIGHT, and if you don't totally agree with me - then you are completely WRONG . . . and going to hell!"

That's not faith - that's blind arrogance.

Arrogance in that one thinks they are better than others, and more "worthy" of getting a ticket into Heaven than someone that doesn't believe JUST LIKE THEM!

I get so sick of hearing religious fanatics saying that I'm going to hell just because I'm gay - I have no "proof" that the religious fanatics are wrong - but they don't have any proof that I'm the one who's wrong. Faith is not supposed to be about who's right and who's wrong, silly rules and rituals or who gives the most money - it's supposed to be about kindness to others and being a good person.

That's probably why if you identify yourself as a Christian, you might feel "persecuted" these days - I mean, how serious can any "Christian" take themselves when there's so many different denominations of that ONE religion?? That just goes to show you that no one religion is "right", They can't even get along amongst themselves!!!

As soon as EVERYONE stops taking themselves so seriously, We'll ALL start to get along better.

because what is a christian?

A Christian is one who believes Jesus died on the cross for the "sins" of mankind. Should be nothing more, and nothing less.

Of course, Jesus did warn about the forming of "religion" and dad burned if they didn't make one using him. Very ironic.

The rest of what one sees in the various forms of Christianity today is a spin off of teachings of man, and interpretations of the Bible. That is why one sees so many different denominations. One group will take a verse or so out of the Bible and interpret it differently from another and, voila we have now another subsect of the faith.

One aspect I have increasingly noticed with Christianity is that man is not given much credit. GOD created man for a reason. He instilled the Holy Spirit in each of us so he could experience his creation. Many Christians these days feel man is a "failure". If they feel this than they should also feel GOD is a failure for we were created "in his image".

Where man has "failed" is the lack of recognition that one of us is really no different than another. It is the teaching of FEAR because someone looks, acts, differently than other that man has stumbled.

Like one political party admitting that they subversively for years used race to gain a certain portion of voters in a certain area. This is the teaching of FEAR. This same party claims to have an inside track on GOD. It seems quite an oxymoron. Yet many who claim to be "Christian" still put on the rose colored glasses, and act as if this is alright. Oops, shouldn't have gone off on this tangent...it is for another day.

paulthefourth
Faith is not supposed to be about who's right and who's wrong, silly rules and rituals or who gives the most money - it's supposed to be about kindness to others and being a good person.

I used to think that too, but the more I examine it as an outsider, the more faith appears to be a virus. It has no consciousness of its own, but uses its hosts to spread itself. The purpose of faith is to spread more faith.

madmanacrosswater
The rest of what one sees in the various forms of Christianity today is a spin off of teachings of man, and interpretations of the Bible. That is why one sees so many different denominations.

The spinoffs are different strains of the virus. The more virulent spinoffs come to dominate. If you look at any major religion, you will see that everything is set up for spreading the religion - the evolutionary result of the more successful spinoffs coming to dominate over the aeons.

The next major strain of Christianity will make allowances for the sexual revolution, just as the strain that sees slavery as immoral came to dominate. Such strains already exist and could begin to compete with neopaganism that lacks many of the resilient aspects of Christianity.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

the point was to show that all christians seem to do is moan at the way non-christians do things. hence with the whole teaching ID in school arguement. do christians really feel that threatened that they have to try and force ID in to the school classroom? if ID was worth teaching, it would already be taught in school, yet it is not worth teaching, hence why it is not taught in school.

Thats an asumption Shauny,especially saying all,i`ve never moaned about it so you must be wrong,but from your view point you could be right,clarification from my point of view on ID,it does`nt affect my faith in Christ what ever other Christians stand for that they feel is important,nor what any scientist claims to be fact.

why did you suddenly switch to talking about jesus? i wasn't talking about jesus. i don't think i even mentioned his name...

Because i was giving you another view of a different Christian than the ones you must always be seeing.Have i bitched and moaned to you about anything?or have i given you responses from my view to your moaning etc?

want to know what i think? that you also feel that teaching ID as an alternative theory in science would be just like teaching that the holocaust never happened in history, also as an 'alternative theory'. if that's not what you think then please, answer to my post, instead of commenting on your life, jesus and/or how i represent myself in my post.

See above,thats what happens with assumptions,i gave my answer to you the way i did because it seems to me that your view of Christians is tainted for reasons only you know,and i`ve asked you questions and given answers to try and find out exactly why you feel so much resentment without understanding that not all Christians are what you make them out to be.

I`ll also add that if you knew me personally a lot of your views of Christians would be put to rest.But i`m sure Shauny you`ll come up with some brand new ones.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by saint4God

Saint4God

What truthseeka is talking about will eventually be inevitable,

Is it? "The look on your faces" sounds like something that would happen in both of our lifetimes and my Book says no one except the Father will know the hour of Christ's coming, nor do I see details of our imprisonment in there.

Some things Christ talks about in what to look out for,yes no one knows the hour only God,it does`nt say year etc.though gives an indicator of when.Sorry for the large quote but its all relevant

Matt.24
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Imprisonment?I think we as Christians wont be in there long enough to be called a prisoner,this war on terror is bringing about the persecution of all extremists harmless extremists or not,for the very purpose of including Christians as extremists,when people are forced to take the mark it will be under the logical guise of security,Christian`s will be targeted for refusing it,therefore under Law those that refuse are grouped into extremists and criminal etc,and no doubt a great falling away for many Christians.

Rev.20
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Its something i`ve been expecting in the future without a doubt,"The look on your faces"i`ve also been waiting for but not the look on Christian faces,the people that have mocked Christians and God because all will witness God in this.

You have no argument for me Saint4God that its of no good to worry about tomorrow,there`s is however instruction on what to look out for in the coming of the Lord,which only the truly stubborn could deny of what is happening in the world.

I'm with you my friend, just offering some food for thought.

I know,its just i ate that food some twenty years ago and was as delicious as it is today.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

because what is a christian?

A Christian is one who believes Jesus died on the cross for the "sins" of mankind. Should be nothing more, and nothing less.

I can agree with the first part but then to finish with the second?your analogy is like saying when someone enters and becomes an apprentice they are automaticly a craftsmen.So no its just the beginning.

Of course, Jesus did warn about the forming of "religion" and dad burned if they didn't make one using him. Very ironic.

Sorry i have no idea what your saying here?

The rest of what one sees in the various forms of Christianity today is a spin off of teachings of man, and interpretations of the Bible. That is why one sees so many different denominations. One group will take a verse or so out of the Bible and interpret it differently from another and, voila we have now another subsect of the faith.

This is the case imo to some degree,but there are also other factors,Satan for one.

One aspect I have increasingly noticed with Christianity is that man is not given much credit. GOD created man for a reason. He instilled the Holy Spirit in each of us so he could experience his creation. Many Christians these days feel man is a "failure". If they feel this than they should also feel GOD is a failure for we were created "in his image".

Man credit?for what?The Holy Spirit given to the disciples in Pentecost as the comforter because they and all Christians have been taken away from the immediate presence of Christ,speaking in tongues eviedence of having the Holy Spirit gives direct phoneline to God a language in which God can not be blasphemed.

Where man has "failed" is the lack of recognition that one of us is really no different than another. It is the teaching of FEAR because someone looks, acts, differently than other that man has stumbled.

Then what does Christ example of John the Baptist say to you when He said that there has`nt been a greater man than him(John)say if not that we are not all equal in the eye`s of God.

Like one political party admitting that they subversively for years used race to gain a certain portion of voters in a certain area. This is the teaching of FEAR. This same party claims to have an inside track on GOD. It seems quite an oxymoron. Yet many who claim to be "Christian" still put on the rose colored glasses, and act as if this is alright. Oops, shouldn't have gone off on this tangent...it is for another day.

Bad analogy imo,i dont think God cares one iota for politians and the like,but FEAR? you only need to fear Him and not what other`s say you should fear.

Originally posted by gps777
Some things Christ talks about in what to look out for,yes no one knows the hour only God,it does`nt say year etc.though gives an indicator of when.Sorry for the large quote but its all relevant

Oh I don't doubt there will be signs, but don't see the signs yet.

Originally posted by gps777
Imprisonment?I think we as Christians wont be in there long enough to be called a prisoner,

Ditto.

Originally posted by gps777
You have no argument for me Saint4God that its of no good to worry about tomorrow,there`s is however instruction on what to look out for in the coming of the Lord,which only the truly stubborn could deny of what is happening in the world.

Ya. I think I see what you're saying. The end as we know it will be the final result of a large anti-Christian conspiracy. Yes?

Originally posted by gps777
I know,its just i ate that food some twenty years ago and was as delicious as it is today.

Woot!

[edit on 26-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Ya. I think I see what you're saying. The end as we know it will be the final result of a large anti-Christian conspiracy. Yes?

Since the end as we know it will be the return of Jesus, the judgement, and thus your reward, is it not in your own best interest not to take measures to prevent it other than what the Bible tells you to do (spread the gospel personally, but not legally, in Biblically specified ways)?

I'm not saying you should contribute to the conspiracy (although we do of course accept donations), but wouldn't it make sense to let god do the work to prevent it if it's not the right time? That being the case, doesn't it make sense for Christians to withdrawel from the political domain as far as pushing for enforcement of Christian ideals?

Perhaps it is the involvement of Christians in politics that has prevented the return of Jesus for the last 2000 years. Maybe he's just waiting for you to actually trust him, rather than just paying lip service, without resorting to force to spread the gospel before he will return. Then when times look bleakest of all for Christianity, continue to trust in him.

Originally posted by Croat56
Christianity has been rewritten and twisted into other ppls agendas. Like jahovas witnesses. Good thing Im Catholic. The orignal and true one

Catholics are Christian!

Originally posted by spamandham
Could we find a single one year period in the last 2000 that didn't have all these "signs"?

Probably not.

Originally posted by spamandham
Some have been substantially worse. Don't you agree the black plaugue was significantly worse than anything we're seeing today?

Yes.

Originally posted by spamandham
What we have today is mobility, mass communication, and improving abilities at remote sensing. If not for ease of travel and mass communication, would you have even known about the tsunami, or hurricane Katrina?

Probably not. I think these are important points to consider. I would think the signs in Revelation would be of much greater significance, especially with the way they are described in the book.