penn & teller's bulls**t program is pretty good, the one about 'bible bulls**t' is pretty hilarious. no conspiracy, just good humour

The record of what God said known as the Bible, is a reflection of what we're supposed to already know deep down. If not, it serves as the guide in our relationship with God.

is it the only guide? Jesus himself professed a different religion than the one christians claim. He was a Jew, a rhabbi, who's only purpose was to exclude the caveaut that only born Jews, who lived a certain way, were applicable for salvation. Many Christians claim that the only way to salvation is to be a christian. Kinda seems like many are preaching the exact thing Jesus was trying to erradicate.

"The kingdom of God comes not with observation (outward show): neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" - Luke 17:20-21

Aren't Christians saying "Lo here" and not "Lo there" when they say be a christian, regardless of how you live?

Originally posted by passengername
edit as they saw fit (Nicea Constantine), and pass on to their children and the world?

This is an interesting study. Things weren't "edited" as much as consistent things were put together. These "edits" are still available but from what I've read, none of these other books seem contradictory or earth-shattering.

if these books that were excluded weren't contradictory, why leave them out? Matt, Luke, and John were basically the same except for a few "contradictory" passages, so we can assume that books weren't excluded to save space. and the whole don't take away and don't add thing, what did that mean? don't take away from the stuff men decided on at that time or did it apply before they took away the non-cannonized books? what was their model for consistency? when things weren't consistent, how did they decide which one to choose. or did they just take out the parts that they couldn't decide on?

Originally posted by passengername
I'm sure every christian, and other people of faith, would agree that God knows that mankind are inherently sinners and liars so why would he leave it up to our ancestors and us to pass "The WORD" on.

That's where His power to direct comes in. His Word perseveres, whereas perversion eventually fails the test.

I think it's true that his word preserveres. that's why many of the unholy things done in the name of christianity within the past few centuries are now in the process of being undone. and not because of scriptures in the bible but by people who didn't listen to the verses chosen, edited and taken out of context by the religious leaders spewing exclusionism/inclusionism (word?) but how did the perversion occur in the first place and how did it last so long?

Originally posted by passengername
why not something like genetic memory or something?.. or maybe he did. everyone knows the difference between right and wrong unless we're taught otherwise... right?

You're on it! . Now, the true danger is when we ignore that God-given sense of right or wrong by trying to rationalize, justify, explain, excuse, etc. it until we get what we want. We then start lying to ourselves and that's an ugly, ugly thing.

what about when we start lying about others who's culture may not be the same as our own. I don't think there are very many cultures who encourage killing, stealing and lying. is their God given sense within them enough to save them or must they be first exposed and then except our culture to acheive salvation?

Originally posted by passengername
I think that runaway religion wants everyone to believe that they are born evil and doomed to misery for eternity.

If anyone doubts sin nature, I'd recommend raising a child and paying close attention to ages 3 through 5. To say "I'm not a sinner" is called pride, a sin that prevents us from seeing the many faults we actually have. Not a "doom and gloom" speech, just that we need to take a good hard look into the mirror and be honest with ourselves. Only then can we stop our tongue from accusing others as having many faults, rather say "I understand" and help them through it.

I have two BOYS! 4 and 8. True, they have to be taught/reminded how to interact socially, but they are good at heart. kids are the first ones to share something they have, especially if they are well provided for, until they are taught by some mean kid or adult that "what's mine is mine and you can't have any". And since all of us are sinners, are christians saying "be like me, I'm a sinner"? no, they are saying be like me, you're a sinner.

Originally posted by passengername
Maybe we all know what it takes to be good righteous people but we all get caught up in trying to pick a side.

Deep down we do know what is right. The difference between accepting God and Jesus as His son, we are saved from that potentially harsh judgement in the end. Why risk what can be guarenteed? I think the proper motivation to come to God is not fear of Hell, rather a love for Him all that comes from Him is good.

so are you saying people don't really need Jesus for salvation, he's just a warranty incase something goes wrong. what about all the good people who aren't christian, are they doomed to hell anyway?

don't get me wrong. I was raised Christian, and attend a Pentecostal church now. I believe that following Christ is A way to acheive salvation. My problem is that many christians think that their way is the only way. Almost like yeah, you can run fast in Reebok, but your only an athlete if you wear Nike. And I'm just not down with that.



[edit on 16-8-2005 by passengername]

penn & teller's bulls**t program is pretty good, the one about 'bible bulls**t' is pretty hilarious. no conspiracy, just good humour

I've missed that one!!! Their reports are usually close to being on the money laced with "their" humor. I put their in " " because one never speaks.

Did you ever see the one on bottled water? What a hoot. Shows how the sheep are easily duped and led to slaughter.

Many Christians claim that the only way to salvation is to be a christian. Kinda seems like many are preaching the exact thing Jesus was trying to erradicate.

Yes, Jesus spoke specifically about "religion" and it's connotations. However, if one listens to the preachings of the "Christian Right" one will seldom hear Jesus's name mentioned. Seems "odd" doesn't it?

Originally posted by passengername
is it the only guide?

I say 'guide' because the Bible is not all there is to Christianity. Christianity is about God living right now, whom sent his son as recorded in the Bible. I do not mean to diminish the power (effectiveness, relevancy) of the Word in any way.

Originally posted by passengername
Jesus himself professed a different religion than the one christians claim.

How so?

Originally posted by passengername
He was a Jew, a rhabbi, who's only purpose was to exclude the caveaut that only born Jews, who lived a certain way, were applicable for salvation. Many Christians claim that the only way to salvation is to be a christian. Kinda seems like many are preaching the exact thing Jesus was trying to erradicate.

Christ said in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whomever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life". Christ taught that, therefore Christians should be teaching that. Where was the division again?

Originally posted by passengername
Aren't Christians saying "Lo here" and not "Lo there" when they say be a christian, regardless of how you live?

Per above, immitating their master saying whomever believes in him shall not perish. Beyond Jesus' words, a Christian has no jurisdiction to say their own words are gospel truth.

Originally posted by passengername
if these books that were excluded weren't contradictory, why leave them out?

An interesting point. Give benefit of the doubt, include more than less and let the people decide. Well, these texts are still available, so if you're interested in further study, I don't see any harm from that. I'm still trying to completely comprehend all the dynamics and applications of the first Book .

Originally posted by passengername
Matt, Luke, and John were basically the same except for a few "contradictory" passages, so we can assume that books weren't excluded to save space.

I don't think space was ever an issue.

Originally posted by passengername
and the whole don't take away and don't add thing, what did that mean?

That was the last part of Revelation, to say there is no more prophecy of the future to be added to the Book. A lot of people template that to mean no more writings to the Bible at all. Perhaps it does, I don't know for sure. One thing I do know is God is consistent with the words that are in the Book.

Originally posted by passengername
don't take away from the stuff men decided on at that time or did it apply before they took away the non-cannonized books? what was their model for consistency? when things weren't consistent, how did they decide which one to choose. or did they just take out the parts that they couldn't decide on?

Wow! Lots of questions. I had the same ones. I'm fairly new to the study of the council and there are answers to that. I can say most of it can be found on the internet (though beware of biases), books, dvd's, etc. My assessment is it was a good number of rabbis and they had a very long, difficult time wrestling with the same questions you are. There were even disagreements, but on the whole a lot of the same conclussions were drawn. How did they possibly agree? By miracle or reasoning, it was done. Perhaps a little bit of both.

Originally posted by passengername
I think it's true that his word preserveres. that's why many of the unholy things done in the name of christianity within the past few centuries are now in the process of being undone.

I totally agree with you here.

Originally posted by passengername
and not because of scriptures in the bible but by people who didn't listen to the verses chosen, edited and taken out of context by the religious leaders spewing exclusionism/inclusionism (word?) but how did the perversion occur in the first place and how did it last so long?

Not only did it happen before, but it's happening now and will happen in the future. The benefit to living these days is the fact that the Word is abundant in our area. Our communication channels are excellent. We can compare what someone does alongside with the Book they claim to follow. If it's a mismatch, you can see clearly this isn't the will of God. If it is unclear, it would then be dependent on your personal relationship with God. You can talk to God and get your answer whether indirectly and directly. My recommendation would be to not put "qualifiers" on it like "by 10pm Friday night I need an answer" or "show me the answer by a scroll floating down from heaven". He's the God, let Him deliver the message in a way He finds most effective for you to understand. It's a pleasant surprise when that happens .

Originally posted by passengername
what about when we start lying about others who's culture may not be the same as our own. I don't think there are very many cultures who encourage killing, stealing and lying. is their God given sense within them enough to save them or must they be first exposed and then except our culture to acheive salvation?

I love this question! Though, you're probably not gonna like my answer. Here it is: I don't know. Per Revelation 20:11, God gets to be the judge so I'm not allowed to say who's permitted in hizzouse and who isn't. All I can do is go off of what I know which is what He's given me:

1.) God exists.
2.) Deliver the good news of His son so that others who choose to accept it can be saved.

I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on this particular question as well.

Originally posted by passengername
I have two BOYS!

Cool!

Originally posted by passengername
4 and 8. True, they have to be taught/reminded how to interact socially,

Exactly.

Originally posted by passengername
but they are good at heart.

I think that's what Jesus means by having faith like a child and letting the children come to him. It's also great to here your love for them. Unwanted children is such a big problem in this day and age I think.

Originally posted by passengername
kids are the first ones to share something they have, especially if they are well provided for, until they are taught by some mean kid or adult that "what's mine is mine and you can't have any".

Ah, but it's also apparent what happens when they want something but can't have it. Adults are more subversive and severe I think in this regard, then try to make themselves look good while doing so.

Originally posted by passengername
And since all of us are sinners, are christians saying "be like me, I'm a sinner"?

Hehe, I don't want anyone be like me. I'd like people be who they are with God.

Originally posted by passengername
no, they are saying be like me, you're a sinner.

Jesus talks about hypocrites (Matthew 7) and casting stone when we sin ourselves (John 8). A Christian, one who follows Jesus' words as in these two chapters, should know better.

Originally posted by passengername
Maybe we all know what it takes to be good righteous people but we all get caught up in trying to pick a side.

Originally posted by passengername
so are you saying people don't really need Jesus for salvation, he's just a warranty incase something goes wrong.

He does say "no-one gets to heaven except through me" so ultimately he would have to save you. Whether that's in this life or during the judgement is up to the individual I believe. If you're already saved, there's no need for judgement, to not a warranty if something goes wrong rather an admission since already redeemed.

Originally posted by passengername
what about all the good people who aren't christian, are they doomed to hell anyway?

Hard to tell. This is where the judgement comes back into play and all the parables Jesus starts talking about. Hm, lots about separating the "good" from the "bad". I'd recommend reading Matthew and drawing a separate conclussion before taking anyone else's stance on it. It sounds to me if you know of God, reject him and the son he sent to save us, that that's not a good thing. Again, us people don't get to make that judgement call. We can discuss what is and is not a sin and why, but beyond that is out of our territory I think.

Originally posted by passengername
don't get me wrong. I was raised Christian, and attend a Pentecostal church now. I believe that following Christ is A way to acheive salvation.

Christ says he is per John 3:16. God Himself backs it up in the Old Testament prophets (Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.)

Originally posted by passengername
My problem is that many christians think that their way is the only way. Almost like yeah, you can run fast in Reebok, but your only an athlete if you wear Nike. And I'm just not down with that.

Reebok (Methodist), Nike (Baptist), Puma (Presbyterian)...in that regard I think these are 'brands'. But, without shoes, it's really hard to run up a gravel hill I think.

Fascinating discussion! I hope you're having as much fun as I am with it. It's really challenging me to check my sources, think and consider. Always welcoming more questions, comments or discussion on it.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by saint4God]

Christianity -- along with most religions -- is abrasive. It tells people what it should and should not think; and more importantly, it tells people if they don't believe what is said, they will go to hell. As people become more free in thinking, more people reject this idea, and even become offended by it.

Not to mention the Christians who do the same thing you accuse the "anti-Christians" of. How many atheists and agnostics have had one to fifty Christians preach hell to them in their life?

and someone comes along to hit the reset button. Okay white4life420, what specific question or problem would you like to address today?

I just responded to the title and original topic of the thread. Excuse me for the convenience of staying on topic.

Originally posted by white4life420
Christianity -- along with most religions -- is abrasive. It tells people what it should and should not think; and more importantly, it tells people if they don't believe what is said, they will go to hell. As people become more free in thinking, more people reject this idea, and even become offended by it.

Lets compare to an edited version and try to figure out exactly what it is that offends you


The american laws -- along with the laws of most nations-- are abrasive. They tell people what they should and should not think; and more importantly, it tells people if they don't do what is said, they will go to jail. As people become more free in thinking, more people reject this idea, and even become offended by it.


Yep. Right on target.

People reject laws of any kind when truth becomes relative and morallity becomes self centered.
Rejecting the bible for selfish reasons is nothing new

Originally posted by jake1997
Rejecting the bible for selfish reasons is nothing new

As opposed to....?

Please enlighten as to the proper rationale and context for rejecting the Bible?

Obviously, there is a place and time by your statement.

Why am i so anti christian?
Ok lets see.

1) A religion based on the teachings of christ... but christ never left us any teachings.. its all second hand sources telling us what he had said.

These sources are not a good guide to his thoughts.. yet people claim JC did this said that (all still relatively ok from second hand sources) but to then say JC wanted this or thought like this ... naaahhh mate pull the other one!

If JC had left a AUTO-biography.. id read it and accept people who follow him, this new testament is like reading a tabloid account of his life, and was NOT penned by JC!!!


2) Has/is being used to control thought and action in people.

It was the TV of the middleages... a nice little gettogether with a sing-along and fantastic storys of this superhero dude called JC. Better that whatching the candle bun at home for sure, also keeps the sheep from sitting at home and thinking above their station. It also instills some morals and ethics in people (not a bad thing and can be done in other ways) allowing you know exacly whats good and bad to them and can predict reactions to given situations..... very handy for controlling the sheep.


3) Institutionalized religion only serves to subjugate and rot the mind.

The could be an case made for instilling a sense of ethics in people.. however the case quickly looses ground as ethics is usually seen by these sheep as "good/bad". Ethics being about making the good/bad call yourself and not having everything pidgeonholed for you.


4) Being brought up as an irish catholic.. i despise what religion has done to the island.. and cringe every time i see two religions at war.
Two equally ignorant people shouting "i'm right.. your wrong.."


I hope that explains why i loathe this hocus-pocus claoked in "spirituality". Don't get me wrong im not a cold fish, i believe people have spiritual needs just that they need to explore them themselves and not be lead around by the nose.

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by white4life420
Christianity -- along with most religions -- is abrasive. It tells people what it should and should not think; and more importantly, it tells people if they don't believe what is said, they will go to hell. As people become more free in thinking, more people reject this idea, and even become offended by it.

Lets compare to an edited version and try to figure out exactly what it is that offends you


The american laws -- along with the laws of most nations-- are abrasive. They tell people what they should and should not think; and more importantly, it tells people if they don't do what is said, they will go to jail. As people become more free in thinking, more people reject this idea, and even become offended by it.


Yep. Right on target.

People reject laws of any kind when truth becomes relative and morallity becomes self centered.
Rejecting the bible for selfish reasons is nothing new

Well, see, it doesn't offend me. I was explaining for an outsiders POV. I wouldn't necissarily call it self-centered, though. It would be self-centered if they found the bible abrasive, and were at the same time religious. But most of these people aren't religious, and having people tell them they will burn for eternity because of it would become a bit of a drag.

didn't mean to assault your opinion, just that there's a lot of great info on this thread and I think a lot of your concerns may have been addressed within the many pages here. I think it'd be a great help to go through them or at least be specific with what it is that you're concerned about. It's hard to help someone who walks in and says "Christianity sucks!" and then try to get to the root of whatever problem exists.

I am the author of my post and your interpretation is incorrect. I can at least say that much with authority

Cor

I did not get your message first hand from you. I got it from the abs server. Did you really leave that message? As I dont believe you did, ......(see where this goes? Me neither)

Originally posted by saint4God
didn't mean to assault your opinion, just that there's a lot of great info on this thread and I think a lot of your concerns may have been addressed within the many pages here. I think it'd be a great help to go through them or at least be specific with what it is that you're concerned about. It's hard to help someone who walks in and says "Christianity sucks!" and then try to get to the root of whatever problem exists.

It's no problem. Im not too easily offended.

And by the way, I really wasn't trying to say Christianity sucks in any way. I am all for religion. While I am fairly liberal, and it does anger me how religion does seem to play a monstrous role in politics, I am all for it. I am often jealous of religious people. What security it must be to feel that life is just a gateway to a more true reality.

I am fairly new on this board -- and mostly joined for 9/11 conspiracy discussion (I love politics) -- so I have a ton of catching up to do. I think you'll find my posts more up to date in a few weeks. I'll have caught more new threads and be more well known by then.

[edit on 22-8-2005 by white4life420]

Originally posted by white4life420
It's no problem. Im not too easily offended.

Ah good.

Originally posted by white4life420
And by the way, I really wasn't trying to say Christianity sucks in any way. I am all for religion. While I am fairly liberal, and it does anger me how religion does seem to play a monstrous role in politics,

Seats of power are dangerous despite someone's claim to use responsibility I think.

Originally posted by white4life420
I am all for it. I am often jealous of religious people. What security it must be to feel that life is just a gateway to a more true reality.

Admittedly it is very nice. I had a violently frustrated spirit previous to knowing God. I'd be glad to talk more about it if ever you'd like to U2U.

Originally posted by white4life420
I am fairly new on this board -- and mostly joined for 9/11 conspiracy discussion (I love politics) -- so I have a ton of catching up to do. I think you'll find my posts more up to date in a few weeks. I'll have caught more new threads and be more well known by then.

Welcome! Glad to have you here and looking forward to future contributions as well.

I can't believe I wasted so much of my time arguing with you clowns here. Then again, I had nothing better to do then...

It's funny, after all this time of not coming to this site, I still see the same #. You Christians are laughable, seriously. You go on and on about a conspiracy, yet you have NO idea who's doing it.

I ain't gonna reiterate who's the real culprit, I just had a nice little nugget for you Christians. People in our govt are implementing a law, bill, or some # that's going to establish the New Testament as anti-Semitic. Oh, yeah, ant-Semitic against Jews because Arabs aren't Semites...oh, wait, they are, too.

So, once again...

I'd love the looks on your faces when y'all realize that the second half of your holy book is hate speech; the look when y'all are thrown in jail for associating with it will truly be priceless.

And no, I'm not posting a link to this info. Believe it, look it up yourselves, or don't believe it at all. I don't give a #, I ain't a Christian.

Originally posted by truthseeka
the look when y'all are thrown in jail for associating with it will truly be priceless.

A curse, hm. Well, my hope for you truthseeka is that you turn into a truthfinda someday soon and are filled with love, faith and hope.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

anti-christian conspiracy? would this be the conspiracy that only affects the small figure of 800,000 million christians? that's some conspiracy.

you christians bitch and moan that you can't get ID taught in schools by science teachers. you bitch and moan that there's some sort of conspiracy going on. you bitch and moan about evolutionist's not having any evidence whatsoever. you bitch and moan that more creation and christian topics aren't put in to the classroom. you're just a bunch of bitching, moaning, religious bible cheerleaders. let's have some sort of discussion on a normal level...can you cope with that?

firstly making science teachers teach ID or creation, as an alternative theory to evolution, is wrong in many ways. it's like teaching that the holocaust never happened as an alternative theory in history.

secondly no one should be 'telling' our science teachers what to teach, especially not by people who don't know anything about science. it's the same with history teachers, no one has come up to them and said 'you have to teach that the holocaust never happened as an alternative theory'.

the main reason for christians wanting ID taught in school is because they know, they are losing touch with the youth, and they hope the only way of getting them back to the church is by teaching ID at school. it's the same situation in england, however not as heated as the one in america.

i have a friend who was home schooled since she was about 5. never learnt one thing about science. the reason for this is her parents are christians, and didn't want her learning about science for obvious reasons. surely we have here, the opposite of what christians think is happening in schools across the country? that there's only 'one' theory being taught. so why only teach your daughter 'one' theory?...because that's the theory the parents believe in, which makes it o.k. however, it's not o.k if their daughter is being taught 'one' theory that they do not believe in.

maybe in the future we'll have parents wanting 'the holocaust never happened' being taught as an alternative theory in history class. ID has no place in school. it belongs in church and sunday school. that's like saying why not have more prayer or sermens given by vicars, priests and bishops in school.

Wow Shauny that was another big bitch and moan from you.

I lost what your point was from all the bitchin and moanin?

Trying to be funny here and show you that you are doing exactly what you accuse us of.

If you want to be respected then say something respectable,we as Christians try and emulate a life that Christ would like us to live and follow his teachings.

What has Christ done or said that is wrong and not respectable?

Even if you personally Shauny believe he was a myth,what has he ever done or said to you to deserve your or any bodies hate?


Saint4God

What truthseeka is talking about will eventually be enevitable,which is what i was speaking of with the Police link i gave you,who do you think will enforce these type of Laws?,its not an attack on the person inside the uniform but it is for those who order them to enforce them.order out of chaos my Bro and the time is drawing near.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by gps777]