The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Did god really make such a violent planet? and you people say satan is the evil one!

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Did god really make such a violent planet?

God made the planet, we made it violent.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and you people say satan is the evil one!

He likes evil and gave us the idea of going against God...which we gladly took. And some are still taking.

[edit on 27-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
God made the planet, we made it violent.

We didn't make it violent. I wasn't on about us killing each other, which happens in the animal kingdom anyways. I was on about earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, and other natural disasters...why make a 'PLANET' so violent?

He likes evil and gave us the idea of going against God...which we gladly took. And some are still taking.

Ultimately according to you not only did god create us (people who supposedly have made the planet violent) but also satan, and also a planet that is also violent...so god creates people who do violent thing, creates a being/angel/turned satan who likes evil and turns people against god and creates a world which is imperfect and full of death...

Yep, and we each get the joy of choosing what we think is most likely to be real. It is a hard puzzle, could take one their whole life to solve. But then, what else would we do? I choose to let others find their path, and I will find mine, and if God doesn't like it, or Satan wants a piece of me, that is great. Whatever happens, it is all pretty wild.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
We didn't make it violent. I wasn't on about us killing each other,

My bad.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
which happens in the animal kingdom anyways.

Yes, but we have the ability to reason. What good reason do we have for killing?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I was on about earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, and other natural disasters...why make a 'PLANET' so violent?

Oh oh. Why? In my opinion, I wouldn't take it personal. The weather seems not to discriminate among people, their beliefs, etc. Does God micro-manage the weather? Dunno. I do believe these trials are necessary, though know not the individual reasons. I think a part of it is 'waking us up'. Without troubles, we tend to create our own and forget about mortality, consequently treating others poorly. Just a thought, I don't know the exact answer. I can say though as a Christian, death is not the end but committing sin without forgiveness is.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Ultimately according to you not only did god create us (people who supposedly have made the planet violent) but also satan,

Ooh whoa, I never said satan had creative powers. He's very resourceful (grabbing existing personnel) and an inflictor of pain and suffering, but don't think he caused tsunamis, hurricanes and the like. I don't see what benefit he'd have by killing people off (except those he wishes to silence), when he can persuade them to be an influencial tool to his purpose of spreading his domain. Again, these weather patterns seem non-selective, so it doesn't look like a chess move at all. Just how I see it from what I know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and also a planet that is also violent...so god creates people who do violent thing, creates a being/angel/turned satan who likes evil and turns people against god and creates a world which is imperfect and full of death...

Recall that the Garden of Eden had no ill weather patterns, nor death, nor destruction. What you've described is the state of the world as is exists today, however, I believe what He created originally, was the ability to choose. The course of mankind has been the exercise of this gift. The reason behind that is so that we may either come willingly to God (which is the ultimate display of love) or take our own path. This freedom was no mistake, as having puppets/androids doing what they're told is fruitless. When a thinking, reasoning, feeling person comes to you and says "I love you", it means so much more than running a program on your computer that's forced to say it. Yes, the world is in a suffering state, but we're promised relief if we choose to accept it. That hope alone is worth all the gold in the bank, but it doesn't stop at a hope. We can have the promise by God (who demonstratively does not break promises) that it will be fulfilled.


[edit on 28-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Yes, but we have the ability to reason. What good reason do we have for killing?

because ultimately that's all we are 'intelligent animals'. sure we might be intelligent, have the ability to reason, but we're still prone to mistakes and wrongful doing. why a person would murder another for no reason is beyond me. whether god gave us free will to choose the world to be like this, he didn't give me it, he gave adam it, and well i shouldn't be held responsible for that, thus even if god were real i wouldn't agree.

The weather seems not to discriminate among people, their beliefs, etc. Does God micro-manage the weather?

either way god created 'hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados' etc. he made wind which if hot meets cold in certain circumstances creates deadly tornados, wind also creates hurricanes, tectonic plates create earthquake, thus causing tsunamis...god 'chose' to create these things according to you. the reason i believe we have this weather and natural disasters is through billions of years of changes.

Ooh whoa, I never said satan had creative powers.

nor did i, i said god created satan. that's your god? the god who created evil and satan? by god standards that's a pretty lame thing to do.

Recall that the Garden of Eden had no ill weather patterns, nor death, nor destruction. What you've described is the state of the world as is exists today, however, I believe what He created originally, was the ability to choose. The course of mankind has been the exercise of this gift.

so the concept of a hurricane, or hot air meeting cold air to create a tornado, tectonic plates didn't exist, magma didn't flow underneth the earth's crust to make volcanoes etc...none of this existed?? god just made all of this after adam and eve's sin? yeah, that doesn't sound stupid.

Yes, but we have the ability to reason. What good reason do we have for killing?

Contrary to belief animals also have the ability to reason.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
because ultimately that's all we are 'intelligent animals'. sure we might be intelligent, have the ability to reason, but we're still prone to mistakes and wrongful doing.

That's an excellent answer! I think it's fundamental for all of us to understand this.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
why a person would murder another for no reason is beyond me.

We make 'justifications' for those actions, but as you said before we're prone to mistakes and wrongful doing, which is why we cannot save ourselves.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
whether god gave us free will to choose the world to be like this, he didn't give me it, he gave adam it, and well i shouldn't be held responsible for that, thus even if god were real i wouldn't agree.

Each of us are an Adam and Eve in the sense that being put in the same position, we'd make the same decision. As you said, we're prone to wrongful doing. If you're saying you'd not make that decision, my first question would be why you don't believe in God at the moment? One would have to believe in God before listening and obeying his instruction to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I'd think.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
either way god created 'hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados' etc. he made wind which if hot meets cold in certain circumstances creates deadly tornados, wind also creates hurricanes, tectonic plates create earthquake, thus causing tsunamis...god 'chose' to create these things according to you.

Yeah.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the reason i believe we have this weather and natural disasters is through billions of years of changes.

Okay.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
nor did i, i said god created satan. that's your god? the god who created evil and satan? by god standards that's a pretty lame thing to do.

God apparently created angels with also a will. This is apparent not only with Satan but also with many other angels in the early Old Testament. It wasn't a pointless move. After mankind did his/her move, there had to be some form of justice set up it seems for these wrongful doings. Else, it seems there would be no way for mankind to distinguish the difference.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so the concept of a hurricane, or hot air meeting cold air to create a tornado, tectonic plates didn't exist, magma didn't flow underneth the earth's crust to make volcanoes etc...none of this existed??

It doesn't suggest any superficial (surface) disasters. Below the crust, I don't know why it would be any different, though I wasn't there.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
god just made all of this after adam and eve's sin? yeah, that doesn't sound stupid.

I dunno, but do know there was no death before the sin. So, somehow these disasters would have to have no effect on man. Now to me, to have earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. without deaths sounds even more improbable.


[edit on 28-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
We make 'justifications' for those actions, but as you said before we're prone to mistakes and wrongful doing, which is why we cannot save ourselves.

do you think this 'not being able to save ourselves' could be somehow relate to the creation of a higher power. hence, we create this super being that we say created us, and thus we are saved...it would be nice if we were to be saved, but i don't believe this to be the case.

Each of us are an Adam and Eve in the sense that being put in the same position, we'd make the same decision. As you said, we're prone to wrongful doing.

as god gave us free will, is he not then partly responsible for the downfall of adam and eve. surely that was inevitable if he created a species that was likely to do wrong and prone to making mistakes?

If you're saying you'd not make that decision, my first question would be why you don't believe in God at the moment? One would have to believe in God before listening and obeying his instruction to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I'd think.

firstly if a talking snake approached me, i'd be more worried about my mental health than whether or not to eat a piece of fruit. also we wouldn't have the knowledge of good and evil, so adam & eve didn't know wrong(evil) from right(good), thus did god actually want them to disobey him? 'why don't i believe in god' could take up many pages of answers, but in short, it's just not 'real' to me.

God apparently created angels with also a will. This is apparent not only with Satan but also with many other angels in the early Old Testament. It wasn't a pointless move. After mankind did his/her move, there had to be some form of justice set up it seems for these wrongful doings. Else, it seems there would be no way for mankind to distinguish the difference.

the fact that 'death' was introduced to humans after adam and eve's sin, and pain during labour for women, was that not punishment enough? the idea of heaven and hell is to let people today make a choice between good and evil, yet it doesn't literally mean there is a heaven and hell. it's just that we have that same choice adam and eve had to be good or evil.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you think this 'not being able to save ourselves' could be somehow relate to the creation of a higher power. hence, we create this super being that we say created us, and thus we are saved...it would be nice if we were to be saved, but i don't believe this to be the case.

A false sense of security? I don't know anyone who'd find this acceptable. We're proof driven folk. I think you and I are great examples of that.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
as god gave us free will, is he not then partly responsible for the downfall of adam and eve. surely that was inevitable if he created a species that was likely to do wrong and prone to making mistakes?

Hm, interesting you say that. Exodus 6:6 "The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain." Ouch. That hurts.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
firstly if a talking snake approached me, i'd be more worried about my mental health than whether or not to eat a piece of fruit.

Me too, but only because we have stronger frames of reference to know that's not normal.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
also we wouldn't have the knowledge of good and evil, so adam & eve didn't know wrong(evil) from right(good), thus did god actually want them to disobey him?

I'd say He gave them the option and hoped they would not.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
'why don't i believe in god' could take up many pages of answers, but in short, it's just not 'real' to me.

Bullseye! I think if there was one point to focus on, this would be it. The Bible can be like a high school yearbook in one sense. If you look at a yearbook from another school, it doesn't really mean anything. A bunch of people who have done stuff you'd never seen. Your own high school yearbook is special, the people had gone through the same things, the places look familiar and you remember what the teachers taught. What's the solution to that? Ask for your own experience.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact that 'death' was introduced to humans after adam and eve's sin, and pain during labour for women, was that not punishment enough?

Apparently not, per the Exodus quote above. We STILL screwed it up even though we would experience pains and die. In fact, the lifespan got shorter after Exodus 6:6.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the idea of heaven and hell is to let people today make a choice between good and evil, yet it doesn't literally mean there is a heaven and hell. it's just that we have that same choice adam and eve had to be good or evil.

Well, we have descriptors of what those places are like. If one believes we have the same choices as Adam and Eve, then I think one should consider what heaven and hell are being described as. Just because we haven't been there is not proof it doesn't exist.

[edit on 29-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by shaunybaby
firstly if a talking snake approached me, i'd be more worried about my mental health than whether or not to eat a piece of fruit.

Me too, but only because we have stronger frames of reference to know that's not normal.

Actually, many "origin" stories/myths(no offfense) have talking animals in them. And no one seems to think there odd.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by shaunybaby
also we wouldn't have the knowledge of good and evil, so adam & eve didn't know wrong(evil) from right(good), thus did god actually want them to disobey him?

I'd say He gave them the option and hoped they would not.

Really?
Read Genesis 3:22, the Serpent told the truth.

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM
Actually, many "origin" stories/myths(no offfense) have talking animals in them. And no one seems to think there odd.

If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, where you do you think the myths of talking animals came from?

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by shaunybaby
also we wouldn't have the knowledge of good and evil, so adam & eve didn't know wrong(evil) from right(good), thus did god actually want them to disobey him?

I'd say He gave them the option and hoped they would not.

Really?
Read Genesis 3:22, the Serpent told the truth.

When I say "He", I was referring to God. He's the only He I'll capitalize.

By the way, the serpent says they would not die, yet they did...as evidenced by Adam and Eve no longer being here.


[edit on 29-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM
Actually, many "origin" stories/myths(no offfense) have talking animals in them. And no one seems to think there odd.

If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, where you do you think the myths of talking animals came from?

You're kidding right? Are you actually trying to claim that Adam and Eve wrote Genesis?

Originally posted by spamandham
You're kidding right? Are you actually trying to claim that Adam and Eve wrote Genesis?

No, I'm saying if Adam and Eve was the first event involving mankind that transpired, then that'd have to be the source of all 'talking animals' thereafter.

the talking serpent was a 'prima facie'. it was placed there as something extraordinary.

even when we are children we hear of stories like trolls under the bridge, and you perhaps think some might be under your bed. we hear stories of santa claus living at the north pole with his helper elves and flying raindeer. some tooth fairy collecting teeth and leaving money (always in the same currency of the country you live in...how considerate). the fact is that when we are young we believe these stories. the only difference is when we grow up we know santa, the tooth fairy, and trolls don't exist. however, in the case of this talking serpent, adam and eve, noah's ark, when children are told these stories at a young age...for some reason they carry on believing them right through adulthood. does this not strike anyone as strange?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact is that when we are young we believe these stories. the only difference is when we grow up we know santa, the tooth fairy, and trolls don't exist. however, in the case of this talking serpent, adam and eve, noah's ark, when children are told these stories at a young age...for some reason they carry on believing them right through adulthood. does this not strike anyone as strange?

For some reason, believing fantastic stories on scant or nonexistent evidence becomes acceptable as long as you use the word "faith". I don't know why those of me/us without faith tend to just shake our heads and bite our tongues toward that which is no more plausible than Santa, especially considering that we are called fools, lovers of sin, hellbound, etc. by these same individuals who demand that we treat their childish and silly brain washed delusions as if they were not a form of insanity for which meds and treatment are appropriate.

Originally posted by spamandham
For some reason, believing fantastic stories on scant or nonexistent evidence becomes acceptable as long as you use the word "faith". I don't know why those of me/us without faith tend to just shake our heads and bite our tongues toward that which is no more plausible than Santa, especially considering that we are called fools, lovers of sin, hellbound, etc. by these same individuals who demand that we treat their childish and silly brain washed delusions as if they were not a form of insanity for which meds and treatment are appropriate.

nicely said.

the question, 'are myths of santa and the tooth fairy different to a talking snake and adam & eve', would have to be answered 'no'. i wouldn't mind knowing why christians believe these talking snake myths to be true, but think of santa or the tooth fairy as being 'silly' or 'just for kids'. even thought adults know that santa doesn't exist, it doesn't stop them from creating the illusion that he does, by writing on presents saying 'from santa'. so yeah, it would be nice if a christian would tell me why they believe one thing and not another, even though they are the same, as they are both 'myths and/or legends'.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact is that when we are young we believe these stories. the only difference is when we grow up we know santa, the tooth fairy, and trolls don't exist. however, in the case of this talking serpent, adam and eve, noah's ark, when children are told these stories at a young age...for some reason they carry on believing them right through adulthood. does this not strike anyone as strange?

This fact appears not to apply to me. Sorry, but I wasn't a Bible-fed child (though it might've helped me figure out what was happening later on).

Originally posted by spamandham
by these same individuals who demand that we treat their childish and silly brain washed delusions as if they were not a form of insanity for which meds and treatment are appropriate.

Well, since you've said I'm insane, I guess I'm next in line for clinical therapy. I wonder if I can get disability and not have to work anymore . Wooboy, that'd be a hoot. Staying home playing World of Warcraft while people saying I'm insane pay for my meds and off-time. You're really starting to give me some good ideas spamandham .

As an aside, do you personally know anyone on behaviour correcting medication? I've known 3 people (2 friends, 1 family) with one on each of the following - Zoloft, Ritalin, and Lithium. I honestly believe medical science needs to take a good hard look at these three treatments. In none of those three did it 'work', rather caused other and sometimes permanent side-effects (Ritalin). I really think a different approach needs to be made to understand people instead of throwing pills at them. All three persons at one point or another got more depressed knowing they had to take 'happy pills' to keep 'normal'.

[edit on 30-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
even thought adults know that santa doesn't exist, it doesn't stop them from creating the illusion that he does, by writing on presents saying 'from santa'.

I think this is an excellent point...and the buck stops here. My kid has never believed santa exists, and yes, she is normal. She still gets presents and is equally happy ripping them open with Mom & Dad listed as the gift-giver.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
so yeah, it would be nice if a christian would tell me why they believe one thing and not another,

Though I'd like to hear it, I'll throw in my 2 cents. Santa never did anything for me. God gave me eternal life (as well as a rescue from self-destruction). It's that simple, really.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
even though they are the same, as they are both 'myths and/or legends'.

I don't think the bedtime story of Santa was ever represented as truth from adult to adult. If you're saying that Santa is a conspiracy against children, I'll agree.