Look, dude...

Them ain't my words, I posted an article, in case you didn't notice. Like I said, I could care less that Christians are getting the shaft now; only reason I have a stake here is that people are losing their rights. And, when one group loses their rights, it's just a matter of time before others do too.

I find it funny that you keep finding excuses for this behavior, you being a "Christian" and all. I thought you might care a bit more about this than me, but oh well...your problem, not mine. I just wanted to show you cats bitching about a conspiracy the REAL conspiracy...

Hi all;

There is quite a lot in this world which I fail to understand and I often get things wrong, so please bear with me.

I am a Christian; and I define that as being one who believes that Jesus sacrificed himself to gain for me something I could not do for myself: rightstanding with God, and an ongoing sanctification of my life (which seems to be slow, at best, in my case anyway) all based upon His merits, not any of my own. Think or say whatever you will of this; we are priveledged to live in a country where freedom of thought and speech has been won and maintained through the struggles of many, be they religious or not.

The only "Christian Conspiracy" I see in America today is the ill-advised association of "Judeo-Christian" (if such a combination can be said to really exist) leaders and laypeople with the forces of Government to try to advance an agenda by law, which they have failed to advance through persuasion. This is dangerous to the rights of all, and antithetical to the real nature of Jesus' teachings as well as the practice of the apostles, IMHO.

Face it: the US government, as defined by the Constitution, was designed to be a secular government, despite the attempts at revisionism by Dominionists and Reconstructionists. Please don't give me the argument about "God" in the Declaration of Independence; that was the "creator" god of the Deists; Reason and observation of Nature were their touchstones for defining Him. The Rights the Constitution is designed to protect for us are based on their understanding of inaliability.

It is true that there has always been a "spirited" debate in this country, since before the Founding, over the necessity of religion for a stable society, a debate brought to this country from the Old World. And some of the founders believed that, even the ones who were not "Christians". This includes some who finally came down on the side of a "Godless Constitution" (to borrow the title of an excellent book).

My point is simply this: Christians need to stop trying to get government to "answer to their demands" and work, instead, towards seeing to it that government protects and expands the Liberties which our Constitution is meant to guarantee (it does not "grant" them, mind you, an important distinction). This does not include the "right" to force intrusion of "Judeo-Christian" doctrine or belief into areas which are the rightful domain of all citizens: Public Schools, courthouses, governmental offices, etc.

Simply seeing to it that Government adheres to its' Constitutional responsibilities is work enough as it is, and one I fear we are losing. Remember, what government takes upon itself as a "right" to grant, it will also maintain for itself as something to take away, and at its' own discrimination.

Jesus does not need the "help" of government: The denial of the "right" to organized prayer in schools keeps no one's prayers away from him. The denial of the right to post the Ten Commandments in courthouses makes them no less important, nor relevant, to those who choose to believe in them. "Faith Based" organizations, as well as they operate, simply excuse the government from doing its' job in "providing for the 'common good'" and are a misuse of public taxpayer's monies. This becomes especially relevant when taxpayer funded programs, such as Headstart, are allowed to discriminate in hiring based solely on religious belief. Why should James Dobson, a "religious/political" figure (my opinion), be privy to information not released to the public at large regarding the appointment of a judicial figure whose decisions will matter to everyone?

I could go on, but I suspect I have lost what few points I have after this longwindedness and, besides, I think you get my point.

Jesus did not seek the help of the Roman government even after His ressurrection; Paul did not seek Roman help in his work, although he did appeal to Ceasar for his rights as a Roman citizen for a fair trial, something that government granted to all of its' citizens, though in the end it turned out poorly for him (actually, persecution took him to Rome, where he was allowed to preach the gospel message freely while under "house arrest") IMHO, it is the spreading of this message which we, as Christians, are called to. It is inappropriate for an earthly government to assume this role for itself, even in ways which may seem innocuous.

Make Government do its' job and we will all gain some things:

Freedom to spread the gospel in the open marketplace of ideas without any fear of loss of the full rights of citizenship

Freedom not to accept that teaching, if we so choose, without any fear of loss of the full rights of citizenship

If you believe in the Christian God, then let Him be the God of your life. I am quite sure he is big enough to take care of Himself.

does it not seem to anyone that when a person talks about being a part of a religion, often they always talk like humans are inferior. like we're unable to understand what god does because it's on a level so much higher. his mind is far superior than ours, thus we cannot understand everything he does. we needed jesus to revoke our sins because we couldn't do it ourselves. why make yourself so inferior, and create beings that make you feel even more inferior.

when a japanese person bows the lower the bow the more humble they are. the most humble is being on your knees, and placing your hands on the floor. the difference between this bow and a religious bow, is that this bow is out of respect for the other person you are bowing to. the religious bow is out of not feeling equal to your god, feeling inferior, and feeling your not good enough unless your on your knees.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by shaunybaby]

i dont think anyone has the right or is actually in tune to think that humans can understand what its like to be actually divine. just because were on our knees when it comes to god doesnt mean that we dont understand him or make our selves lower just to do so. it means were overwhelmed by his spirit and can feel his strength.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by topsecretombomb]

Finally a Christian who gets it!

Finally a non-Christian who gets it!

Looks like you're spot-on here shauny. I took out the last part because even on our knees we cannot possibly be 'good enough' for Him or His kingdom, which is why eternal life a free gift and not earned or deserved. I'm starting to feel the love in the room today. By the way, I think a non-Christian 'gets' a whole lot more than they realize or is given credit for. The challenge comes in accepting it. From this dissertation, the question then becomes: are you strong enough to bow to something greater than yourself?



[edit on 13-10-2005 by saint4God]

Hi Shaunybaby,

Your point would be well taken if it mirrored what I actually felt about my beliefs about God and Christ; but in a larger sense you are illustrating something quite beautiful and to be cherished.

That is the right to be able to:

Question
Disagree with
Modify
Hold in contempt
Scorn
or agree with

anybody's religious/philosophical ideas with absolute freedom, as well as the right not to have someone's religious views foisted upon you in the form of school prayer, ten commandments posting, teaching of some form of origins which relies strictly upon faith as opposed to science, etc.

I do believe, in light of the nature of this forum topic, that there is a "conspiracy", of sorts, and quite broadly defined, by certain elements of the Christian community in America to try to put into practice the old idea that religion is fundamental to a stable society. Their brand, of course, or at least those elements which they hold in common.

And by Law which, by its nature, is coercive.

In my view of human nature I also suspect the corrosive effects of plain ol' power may also have something to do with it. It isn't a new idea, and I am certainly not the only one to think this way.

I read that you are in England; the history of the English people has had its share of experience with the negative aspects of this sort of thing.

As has America

As for the rest, my reading of the New Testament does't give me any reason to feel superior to anyone else sharing this planet.

My belief about my inability to provide a "revocation" of sin in the theological sense is based on my belief about the nature of God.

My belief in my inferiority to God leaves me with no sense of self-loathing.

After all, the "Good News" of the gospel is that God values me and every other person on the planet at any given time enough to have sent his son to provide me with something I could not provide for myself.

This is what I choose to believe.

And with that, I gotta' stop before the Mods doc me points for going off-topic.

It may be too late...

Suuuuurrvey Says:



*DING!* *applause*

Hello all.... I had a huge section wrote, but the computer messed up, so I will post it later.

To introduce myself.... I am not a christian, nor will I ever be. I was raised baptist and was baptised, but since then I have not been to church. Call me superstitous, but when the lights go out while you are being raised from the baptismal waters, you kind of get a feeling you should leave. I will tell you now that I am biased against christianity somewhat. I will not apologize for this, but I will try, as I always do, to keep it under wraps. I am more than willing to listen to opinions and such, but please don't try to convert me, I am beyond your help. LOL :-) I try to balance myself between the two extremes(hardcore christians and anit-christians).

As for the christian conspiracy concept....it is quite possibly correct, but not directly. I think what is happening to christians is not right and on par with the idea of reverse racism, however I do understand why it is happening. Even though the bible's "prophecy" says that you will be persecuted, that is to be expected. You can't say its a prophecy because all religions have their time in the sun and shade.... The church has had almost 2,000 years to persecute other religions and the tide is turning. I do not see this as a moral deficit occuring, but an awakening and change of conciousness which I am surprised has taken so long. I will side with christians only to let it be known that any persecution should not and will not be tolerated. You are as free to be you as I am to be me.

My issue with Christianity arises when I think of the answers I have gotten from some of my christian friends. They ranged from mild annoyance to outright rage. It seems anything that went against their ideals was something that should not exist. As a silly example.... Harry Potter and how christians said it was evil. I will list other questions as this goes along, but first I would like to write one, tell you their response and maybe hear your response in return. I will try not to offend anyone here, so please don't pull the persecution card on me.


Why is it so hard to believe that the bible is not without error? It was written by man, so god's word was interpreted by man.

Answer: God wrote it through them. It was direct from him and could not be "interpreted" by man.

My response... This is of course faith, right? You have to believe what these men wrote on this paper and passed to you.

I hope I have not already offended anyone and I look forward to responses, but please no hostilities, I don't want to get in a war here. If you need to, take a day or so to calm down and collect your thoughts.

I don't see that it violates the rules of this forum to be completely honest about your position, even if is overtly anti-christian, as long as you maintain civility in the process. Hate the belief, not the believer...



Christianity is reaping what it has sown for ~1700 years. May it die a merciless death and be forgotten in the scrap heap of history. Christians as a group will attempt to force their beliefs on everyone else by law and by war. It's a dangerous cult and you should not be ashamed to oppose it.



It really shouldn't surprise you. Christianity has had a symbiotic relationship of power with the state for most of the past 2000 years. The state pushed Christianity by force, which then taught people to obey their earthly masters and wait for a reward after death (while tithing of course). They are taught that being a sheep is something good, and that blind belief (faith) is the greatest possible virtue. If it weren't so dangerous it'd be funny.



Why do you feel an obligation to pander to their beliefs, when they will not even hesitate to belittle or criminalize your beliefs, or to make any attempt at all to see things from your perspective?

Where might I see or purchase a copy of "The Gift of Scripture." It seems that the document which was quoted in the article was only a statement by the Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland. I have searched the Vatican website and EWTN (Eternal Word Television Network). They do not seem to recognize this document.

I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. This article reports as new something that has been the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and most mainstream churches for some time. The Bible has been written in different styles, but by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Holy Spirit is still the inspiration through all the translations to date.

It is the teaching role of the Pope, together with the Bishops, to hand down the Deposit of Faith given by Christ and His apostles. Therefore, any change would be announced from the Vatican.

I find this article misleading in an attempt to be sensational.

You have voted apocalypticon for the Way Above Top Secret award.





I believe in the above quoted passages from this post and most of the passages in your first post. You have so eloquently described my beliefs. You have managed to put it all together, the points that are beautiful along with the negative aspects.

Thank you...

Thanks, spamandham, Saint4God, and Mahree for your kind comments; I cherish the ability to exercise freedom of conscience and view it as one of the greatest gifts written into us by our Creator: the ability to weigh the merits of something and make your own decision about it.

yeah except you follow like a sheep with a further billion or so believers...yeah check out how much of an 'individual' you are

Better a



than a stubborn old...



Surely you're referring to us as sheep because of Matthew 25:31, so thanks for keeping it Biblical. We wouldn't want you to be original now, would we? Anywho, bad news for the goats at the end of that chapter.

...but some days I wonder if all this name calling is really helping anyone. Hm, I think not.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by saint4God]

sorry you made the connection of sheep to the bible, but believe it or not sheep do exist outside of the context of the bible.



i didn't claim any sort of originality. i used 'sheep' as a term instead of 'follow'. again you seem confused, did you hit your head recently, because you seem somewhat confused by anything?



only in your eyes. you're headed the same place i am in my eyes. perhaps you're scared for there not to be a heaven after death, so it makes you feel better believing that there is a life after death.



well it makes someone open their eyes to the world they're living in. however much of a free-thinker or individual a christian thinks they are, they're just a mere follower.

if you want to go on about name calling what about hyms:

''god is my shepard''...so that doesn't suggest that you are all sheep?

also a term used for christian moving away from the church is 'straying from the flock'. so god can be your shepard, you can stary away from the flock, but when it comes to being called a 'sheep' you get all uptight.

[edit on 20-10-2005 by shaunybaby]

The analogy began there. It's a parable. Reading it makes it clear who and what it represents. Yes, the sheep in the parable represent followers of Christ.



Ah yes, the mental illness argument again. I was starting to miss that one...not!



I didn't write it. Your argument is not with me. My preference is for everybody to go to heaven without having to believe anything, but it looks like I don't write the rules.



We all follow something.



I was kind of hoping we could talk as people here. Again, I don't recall wagging a finger and anyone saying "you goat!" See if I did, I'd be called a bible-thumper, holy-roller, in-yo-face Christian, but it's okay when you can do it us and it's justified? Hardly seems fair, yes? Perfect example of a double-standard in the Anti-Christian Conspiracy.

let me get this straight... 'the followers of christ are like sheep'...but you find sheep an offensive word to call a follower? surely you're following christ, therefore you are a sheep.



you turned hitting your head recently in to a mental illness? why did you say 'mental illness' when i mentioned nothing of the sort? or do you want to play the poor christian whos being repressed all the time, because so many people think you're mentally ill for believing in such absurd concepts?



so you don't agree with the rules, but follow anyway? let me ask you something...have you ever tried being just a 'person'? you know, an individual that doesn't just follow, and has some sort of independent thought? what you just said sounds like 'i don't like the rules they wrote, but i'll believe anyway, because it gets me in to heaven'. is that what it comes down to?



except some things people follow don't happen to involve another one billion people. it would also be nice if those one billion people had some sort of independent thought where they weren't just quoting from the bible.



maybe that's because i don't sing a song with the words 'my god is my goat herder'. or maybe it's because a term used for people that believe in darwin's theory of evolution is not a 'goat'.

i was pointing out that christians call god their shepard. as you pointed out in the bible jesus' followers are refered to as sheep. when someone strays away from the church they use the analogy 'straying from the flock'.

you say you didn't call anyone a goat? i'll quote you: ''better a sheep, than a stubborn goat''. so i thought i'd let you know as you couldn't 'recall' it. you also called me stubborn. perhaps to further your own agenda that the reason i don't believe what you believe is because i'm stubborn. maybe i don't believe what you believe because i want some free-thought, that's independent from any book or devine being.

we can talk as people, so long as you stop playing the 'i'm being repressed, they're calling me mentally ill' and ''it's double standards, just another piece of the anti-christian conspiracy' cards.

Sure thing, goat.



Help! I'm being repressed! .



Sorry, couldn't resist...



No candy in class! Man, wish I can have candy, but teacher says no.



I'm still a person and have independent thought, as demonstrated by my desire for everyone to get to heaven. But, if you want to disqualify me as a person now, then yes, I can say I had many years "on my own" and at the end of the day, they sucked.



There's a lot more to it than getting by gate security. One thing I've learned is His way turns out to be the right way 100% of the time. My track record lies about...well, less than 50%.



Heh. Yeah, Christians never have questions and always do what they're told. Gotcha



And as you could see, that was a response to the sheep comment, not initiated, and not directed to you in particular. This time, I did call you a goat because you specifically said "you are..."



Help! I'm being repressed!



It's even funny the second time around.



Are you saying I'm not mentally ill and there is no double standard?

ohright so calling people names gets you somewhere now? before you called me a stubborn goat, why just a goat now?



funny as it may seem, that's what you're acting like. you always use sarcasm or humour as a way of avoiding a question too.



yeah that's you. you don't like the rule of no candy, but you put up with it anyway. me on the other hand, i would just eat the candy. what's the worst a teacher would do...send you out the room? detention?



wow, what a free-thinker. watch out candidates, for the 'free-thinker 2006 nobel prize', here comes saintforgod.



there you are again putting yourself down. do you always try so hard to make yourself feel down, worthless, and depressed?



if we're not careful we may be banned from ATS for the overuse of sarcasm.



i called a person a sheep, and you said 'better a sheep than a stubborn goat', which implies you're calling me a stubborn goat. you even went to the trouble of finding a nice adjective to go before goat.



no it's funny in the movie. when you do it, it just seems pathetic.



i'm saying i didn't call you mentally ill, even though you assumed i did and went off on one about how 'someone is calling you mentally ill again'. and i don't see any double standards.