The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Why are so many people soo anti christian?

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity....

I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

1.) Why do so many here feel the need to continually make topics bashing the beliefs of christians....when the topic is clearly not conspiracy related??

2.) Why do people feel the need to bust in on a topic and hijack/change it by attacking a person or their beliefs, posting the christian POV on that topic?
(look at seapeoples post history for an example)

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

[edit on 12-4-2005 by Seekerof]

Hey Jake, I really think it all comes down to iniquity. It's a tough read: I particularly dont care for the tone of it; but I think reading that start to finish, you will notice that the author of it has an interesting perspective. That perspective would most certainly answer #1, #2, but mostly #3.

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity....

I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

1.) Why do so many here feel the need to continually make topics bashing the beliefs of christians....when the topic is clearly not conspiracy related??

2.) Why do people feel the need to bust in on a topic and hijack/change it by attacking a person or their beliefs, posting the christian POV on that topic?
(look at seapeoples post history for an example)

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity....

I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

1.) Why do so many here feel the need to continually make topics bashing the beliefs of christians....when the topic is clearly not conspiracy related??

2.) Why do people feel the need to bust in on a topic and hijack/change it by attacking a person or their beliefs, posting the christian POV on that topic?
(look at seapeoples post history for an example)

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

Regardless of topic hijacking is as old as bbs's, and thier posters. Hijacking is just that. Stealing the topic/feeling/moment/care from you and turning it against you for pleasure/fun/intimidation. The trick is to ignore the hijack and turn it into a debate. Taking fact and using it to your favor without demeaning someone else yourself. When you take it personal, it will be personal. So dont take it personal. One of two things tend to happen. They either get stupidly upset and end up sounding like an idiot, or they quit posting on the thread.

Hate, in general, is rooted in fear - period.

Some people think, or are afraid, that Christians are trying IMPOSE their views on others.

What these same people cannot seem to undderstand is that they themselves are trying to do the SAME thing.

Ones right to believe something is no more or less important than your right not to.

i dont see things anti Christian so much as information being presented that conflicts with long held beliefs that may be incorrect.


I believed in present day Bible. Then i began to investigate conflicts, history, the people, the sources, the canon process, cultures that Judiac beliefs borrowed from, political and financial realities in ancient israel and rome. This is what Jesus commands, " search the Truth yourself" I figure God knew people would HIjack the Bible eventually. The Bible is not a LIteral work. If that is anti Christian, ohh well. The facts are conflicting with the concept.

The Core Message holds true, but the wrapping has been corrupted.

People can't stand the Christian worldview because it makes perfect sense, but it require brokeness, the elmination of pride.
Most people just aren't willing to cast down their pride and take that step of faith and say, "God, I need you".

Christ said:

Matthew 12:30
He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.

In the theological perspective of the spiritual realm, if you're not on God's sign, then you are against him.
There is no neutral ground.

C.S. Lewis said it straight-up:

C.S. Lewis
There is no neutral ground in the universe; every square inch and every split second is claimed by God and counter-claimed by Satan.

Concerning the two sides:
Those who have been redeemed are promised etenal fellowship with God.
As for those who reject, here's their set:

Revelation 20:7-9
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

You do not want to be on the loosing side of eternity.
Yet most people aren't willing to except their own wickedness, so they opress the truth.

This is not intended to offend anyone, but it's the truth. It's no conspiracy. Satan wants people to mock Christ and not think.
Hope,
- Tass

*also, toolmaker, please provide at least one example of corruption, fiction, or a contradiction in the Bible to back up your claim please*

It might stem from the inherent hypocrisy in Christianity. Most Christians (especially evangelicals) will preach tolerance and understanding while they condemn any whose beliefs do not match their own. The topic of homosexuality is a perfect example. While most Catholics maintain that the act of homosexuality is a sin, being a homosexual is not a sin as long as you abstain from the act itself. Most Christians would say that even admitting to being a homosexual is a crime against God. It is this level of intolerance that causes a fear and hatred among non-Christians. I think if we were to examine the true meanings of the teachings of Christ, absent of the views thrust upon them by religious leaders, we would see that tolerance and understanding are at the heart of everything He taught. To distort and twist that message into use as a weapon against those who are different from you is, IMHO, the worst sin of all.

Mr No One,
Here are the fallacies in your last post:

It might stem from the inherent hypocrisy in Christianity

No, Christianity, the belief in Christ, is not hypocritcal.
some Christians maybe, but that's because Christians aren't perfect man, we're just forgiven.

Most Christians (especially evangelicals) will preach tolerance and understanding while they condemn any whose beliefs do not match their own

some example please?

The topic of homosexuality is a perfect example. While most Catholics maintain that the act of homosexuality is a sin, being a homosexual is not a sin as long as you abstain from the act itself.

woah, wait a second
Homosexuality is a sin, just like any other.
Homosexuality is also a choice, made by men, to rebel against God, and their God's plan.
Morality is not relative.
God is just.

Most Christians would say that even admitting to being a homosexual is a crime against God.

Tell me, who? They need to be set straight.
If a Christian is a homosexual, he needs to break out of that bondage.
Admitting it would be confession, admitting your sins to God.
Then they need to seek forgiveness from God's mercy and grace.
and repent (turn around and live a heavenly lifestyle)

It is this level of intolerance that causes a fear and hatred among non-Christians.

The truth is that much of the Church is driven by false motives, and they try to call people to repent when they are also living in sin.
Christ warned against this: Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? - Matthew 7:3

I think if we were to examine the true meanings of the teachings of Christ, absent of the views thrust upon them by religious leaders, we would see that tolerance and understanding are at the heart of everything He taught.

Close.
He taught love.
But he warned against false doctrine, which is the reason for apologists (defenders) of the Christian faith (doctrinally speaking) to perform their duties.

To distort and twist that message into use as a weapon against those who are different from you is, IMHO, the worst sin of all.

Agreed.
However, these are people who are wrong.
Not the Scriptures or God himself.

Cling tightly to what is true.
- Tass

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

This is what I see. I see threads about many different subjects. Hundreds of subjects. In politics things get heated. On sports teams things get heated.
But when it comes to christianity....

I see hatred, dripping wet with venom. Why? This is not a 'hate christ' forum. Christianity is not the largest religion, nor does it have the worst human rights record in the media...it has nothing that should put it at the top of your hate list.

Aren’t you being just a tad hypocritical here? You obviously believe everything about Christianity, that does not make the religion the correct one, or its beliefs the correct one. You have no problem talking about what is wrong with other faiths, and preach your own, so why the hypocritical stance and rail against those like me who can look you in the eye and tell you all of the lies, inconsistencies and contradictions behind Christianity?

All I was saying was that Christianity is jewish. (I tried to put it from a neutral POV tho.) Jewish people have erred from the faith…

If jews had not missed their Savior, then Israel would be the only christian nation in the world instead of the only jewish one.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

-----------Bashing Judaism

If you are going to go to heaven, there is only one way. A narrow gate that few will find because of all the false teachers and the desires of their own hearts

Jesus is the Word. Read it, BELIEVE IT , and act on it, and live forever.
plain and simple.

The rest of the stuff was littered with catholicisms.
The pope is a false teacher, ...him and his organization are not to be confused with Christs church.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

----------Bashing Catholicism a faith you once belonged to and probably defended

You and I will have to part on this. I was catholic, but am no longer.
www.belowtopsecret.com...


Christianity is not worried about bridging a gap between itself and some 'johnny come lately' idea that doesnt even qualify as a theory, that people cling to with great faith.
But then, christianity is not a religion
It is a relationship with the actual creator

But if you find it easier to believe you came from a monkey and a ufo then to believe you were made by something you cant see..( ?? ) then go ahead.
www.belowtopsecret.com...

----------Bashing scientific thought you oppose because of your religion

You know exactly what is to be expected in the religious threads before you open them, why do so and aggravate yourself and post your distaste for same by starting a new thread? Out of sight, out of mind, no?

The venom as you call it is only that because you do not like to have Christianity’s theology challenged.

Tass,

Christianity today is not simply the belief in Christ. It has, sadly and unfortunately, devolved into a more complex thing. In its pure, original sense of the belief in the teachings of Christ, you are correct that there is no hypocrisy in Christianity. However, today's Christianity is not (and cannot be) this same, simple form. I will tell you why: no one is reading or hearing the words of Christ anymore (and they haven't been for thousands of years). What they are hearing and reading are the words of Christ as interpreted and expanded on by man. At the very bottom line of this whole debate are beliefs; your beliefs, my beliefs and the beliefs of billions of other human beings. The horrible misconception of most religions and religious fanatics is that beliefs that are different are wrong. That is at the core of the vast majority of today's Christian teachings. In most Christian churches today if you were to ask if a Jewish Rabbi, having lived a pious and sin-free life, were going to get into heaven and the answer would be no. The reason would be that he doesn't believe that Christ was the Son of God so for that he will go to hell. If that is not hypocrisy, please explain to me what is (keep in mind that the Jewish faith holds to a code of conduct which, in most opinions, is as strict as the commandments).

I have a question for you: how is homosexuality a sin? If, as you say, Jesus taught love and homosexuality is simply love between two of the same sex then it is not wrong. Sex is no more a part of love between homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals. Sex for both can be a base desire or an act of love. So you need to leave the sex out of the equation since it is an equalizer.

And I have a great example of the intolerance of evangelicals: I have the privilege of being involved with an Interfaith Organization. This group is devoted to bringing together members of ALL religions and promotion dialogue and cooperation amongst them. In this group are representatives from the Catholic Church, the Ba'hai faith, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Judaism and Adventist (to name a few) communities. There is not one Evangelical. Want to know why? Because the group gives equal say to all members and the Evangelicals won't listen to the "blasphemers." I hope even you can see the hypocrisy in this. These are all people who have a common belief in GOD, it just manifests differently. Yet, the Evangelicals won't sit with them because they don't believe in GOD the same way.


[edit on 10-3-2005 by Mr No One]

Originally posted by jake1997
This is not a 'hate christ' forum.

Nope, it's a conspiracy forum.

3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

Nope, see above.

But that's not to say we don't get that theory by the truck load. We have plenty who think like you and post accordingly, dismissing all conspiracy theories as just that... an anti-Christian agenda. (yawn)

The only difference is your "anti-Christian conspiracy" is a mainstream topic pounded daily by right wing pundits on major news outlets. It's not exactly the same kind of "alternative topic" an "alternative topics forum" attracts. But never fear, the place is pretty Jesus'ed up these days.

It should be THAT obvious. How can you miss it?

Dude, how can you miss what this place obviously is? It's a CONSPIRACY FORUM!!!!

I joined the forum in your signature for kicks recently. The whole prophetic Rapture conspiracy stuff and the world persecuting Christian martyrs thing you're talking about. That's a Christian Conspiracy Community. I assure you (from experience) you won't hear a shred of debate or contradiction to your beliefs there. And from my experience the Christians here have it pretty darn good compared to me there as I've never been so fracking God Modd'ed in my life.

Dwell on that. But as I understand and appreciate their position that it's a Christian Conspiracy Community for Christians (not me), they can do what they like and I can leave anytime I don't like it.

The same applies here.

I did not notice that link until Rant noted same. So popped in and within a minute I saw the blasphemy. Actually I think it smacked me in the face where even I recoiled at the blatant apostasy:

How to Pray:

Dear Lord Jesus,

I know that I am a sinner and need Your forgiveness. I believe that You died for my sins. I want to turn from my sins. I now invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as Lord and Savior.

In Jesus' name. Amen.

Not only does the initial poster and hos compadres, acquiese to a rewritten Hebrew religion, they blatantly start to rewrite it all over again, and this time it is the very lord and master they claim is boss.

Why is your site advising people that is how you pray when you were told how to pray?

Matthew 6:6 (hmm) But thou when thou prayest, enters into thy closet..6:9(hmmm inverted 6) After this manner therefore pray ye: our father which art in Heaven...

Nowhere does it say to pray to Jesus. You were told how to pray and what to say, why is this being changed? It is hypocrisy such as this that does not allow me tolerance of this religion.



[edit on 3/10/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Hate is a poison to the soul of the person that is doing the hating.

I don't hate christians, I feel sorry for them. I consider them sheeple that blindly follow what they have been told in order to get heavenly rewards when they die. Do you honestly believe your soul is going to get a mansion on a hilltop, streets of gold and a great big fancy crown that gets bigger with every person you convert to the same inanity?

crowns, mansions and decent streets are earthly pleasures, Atleast in Islam you get 72 virgins, which is just as bizarre.

Yet you're willing to blindly follow in hope of these rewards at some later date. The ultimate IOU from God, delivered by those who have the audacity to claim they speak for him.

A daily relationship with the creator of all things is FAR more important than whatever happens after you've taken your last breath.

As I said, I don't hate christians, I just don't want them or their guru around me. Life is silly enough without having them going off.

Love and light,

Wupy

If you want to get more insight into this....read the following thread....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Christianity has been rewritten and twisted into other ppls agendas. Like jahovas witnesses. Good thing Im Catholic. The orignal and true one

People have been against Christianity since...well...Christ. He kinda stirred the pot with radical ideas and talk of love instead of money, power, pride, etc. People don't like this. They like their money, power, pride just fine and asking them to give it up sounds like an offensive against their rights. Here's the thing though, Jesus didn't MAKE anybody do that, yet they still feel they're going to be made to do so if there is a Christian majority.

It's been going on for 2,000 some years and since everyone can duck behind their mask (username/avatar) as to not be accountable for their words, there's a certain liberation allowing people to speak freely. Next time you're hanging out with one of your friends, try striking up a controversial topic with them. It's hard and gets ugly fast. I'm a fan of ATS for this reason. If we choose to be, we can be open and honest without hard feelings and retaliation. After all, we don't really know each other here other than what we've said. It's a comfort level that allows us to express what we think. This goes for both sides. There are silent Christians and Anti-Christians, but here we're allowed to make noise about it. Nice, isn't it? My advice is if it starts to affect your day negatively, it's time to walk away for a moment, then come back with a refreshed perspective.

Why are there Anti-Christians all over the place here? Don't take it personally, nobody knows each other. They have a beef with God. The best we can do is help answer any questions or concerns when requested.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.



[edit on 11-3-2005 by saint4God]

Some people are anti christian because of the atrocities commited in the name of the Church, the crusades, the holocaust, the slave trade, annihilation of S. American civilisations.

These people see what the church does to hurt people and still does to this day (catholic priests and small boys) along with dangerous stances on contraception and abortion that convince them that the Christian church is a bad idea.

Just get over it. Christianity is easily the largest religion in the world. Christianity gets a bad rap because of idiots that go bomb abortion clinics, child molesting priests, and exploitive televangelists. Then you have those that try to push creationism or intelligent design in schools when they should just be asking the schools to teach microevolution and not macroevolution, and even then not until high school. When you add all those factors up, Christians end up putting themselves at a disadvantage in the public limelight when it comes to legitimate arguments about keeping the 10 commandments in the courts, stopping unrestricted abortion, stopping euthanasia, and preserving traditional marriage. The vast majority of Christians are good people, but it seems like the Christians that I wouldn't want to ever represent Christianity are the media whores.

Ok, I have watched, and left alone, for a few days to let the answers come in to see what kind of diversity we get.


I expected 3 major types of answers.

1.) From Christians stating that its just the way the world is heading. Pointing out that satan is the prince of this world and things will continually get worse.

2.) The 'neutral' folks who attempt to remain impartial and then go on to point out that there are legit reasons to hate christianity because of the things done by 'the church' or credited to 'the church' throughout history and today. Although this person attempts to sound impartial, they never do point out that an actual christian would not have done those things.

3.) The typical nazi type who doesnt really need a reason to attack christianity but can throw any one of a million things into the air as a reason to shoot.

serge seemed to go for the deepest answer and provide a source that could easily explain much of the problem within the church (and by proxy the world) today, but I doubt anyone read it

Shdwfx explained topic hijacking history. (thanks...I didnt get into the computer communication thing until 93-94 and msg/chat until much later

partyof1 pointed out something that I doubt the intended audience will acknowledge. Interesting catch po1

toolmaker basically says that its ok to be anti-christian if you disagree with the bible. I disagree with allot of things. I prefer many things, but I am not against the things I dont agree with. Maybe you dont like watermelon, IM sure your not out picketing fruitstands that sell it...nor do you goto websites and bash it even tho advertisers try to sell it to you.
Its one thing to not agree with the bible. Its another to oppose those who do at every turn

Tassadar laid it out as Christ did. Maybe thats why. People like to think of Jesus as a loving teacher but he also spoke some pretty cold hard facts from which everyone has to pick. Most people just dont like to be forced to chose, and hate those who make them do so.

Mr NoOne basically says that christians deserve it because they are hypocrites. What is funny here, is that he becomes one while trying to explain why he feels christians are such.
What is a steel worker? Someone who works with steel.
What is a lawyer? Someone who practices law.
What is a homonsexual? Someone who practices homosexuality.
mrnoone says that all homo's do not have homo sex. Thats about as stupid as saying all steel workers dont work with steel ..etc etc...
Mrnoone, Christ says that the sin is commited in the heart. He gives the example of lust.
You say that christians deserve to be hated because they have different morals.
Sounds like a group 3


somewhereinbetween just outright attacks me and christianity....thus comfirming the need for this very topic.
He then goes on to say that because I distinguish christianity from toher faiths, I am bashing them. Basically this is saying that christians deserve to be attacked because they are different.
Go figure. This is also a group three (not properly a nazi...but meaning someone who doesnt really need a reason to hate....but hates just because he/she can)
The last thing is the most funny. This person actually says that christians should just be quiet and then they wouldnt get bashed!!



MrNoOne shows up again to say that amont other things, christians are wrong because christianity has
1.) changed 2.) Doesnt let jewish rabbis be saved 3.) Says homosexuallity is a sin 4.) Says that the ONLY way to heaven is through christ.
It is for those reasons that christians deserve to be hated.
Christ said HE is THE way. No OTHER way. THEE way.


RANT says that he agrees that this is a conspracy forum, but that there is no sign of 'antichristian' conspiracy in the postings here. He says that this idea comes to the surface quite a bit around here (hmmm....) but it is not true. THere is not anti-christian tone in this forum.
He then goes on to say he joined the board in my signature and that there is no opposing view allowed there but a quick preview or a few questions would prove that wrong. Let me know who you are over there and I will send you a PM with links to aggressive opposing view threads that exist over there.
Your point is well made concerning moderation and viewpoints however , when comparing these two boards. I was not talking about moderation though. I was talking about the level to which people are willing to attack christians for their POV.

The only difference is your "anti-Christian conspiracy" is a mainstream topic pounded daily by right wing pundits on major news outlets.

I dont see that happening in the mainstream news outlets. I see MUCH in support of views that are non-biblical however. Are we talking about ABC NBC CBS CNN FOX MSNBC?
Are there ANY right wing pundits on the major news outlets?


somewhereinbetween feels that now is a good time to do an outright attack against me and attempts to use christ to do it. Just like the popes of the crusades and inquisitions...he attempts to use religion to attack others.
This shows that it is indeed a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE // FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN that is behind the hatred, because he knows very little about what he is saying.

Actually I think it smacked me in the face where even I recoiled at the blatant apostasy:

Perhaps it was a smack in the face from a demon because you went to a christian site?

Why is your site advising people that is how you pray when you were told how to pray?

Matthew 6:6 (hmm) But thou when thou prayest, enters into thy closet..6:9(hmmm inverted 6) After this manner therefore pray ye: our father which art in Heaven...

Nowhere does it say to pray to Jesus. You were told how to pray and what to say, why is this being changed? It is hypocrisy such as this that does not allow me tolerance of this religion.

So whats the deal? Are we supposed to pray to Jesus? Are we supposed to pray only the Lords prayer?

Joh 14:14 James 1:1-7; 1 Cor 1:2; Eph 5:19; Acts 8:22; Acts 2 Rev 22:20, 2 Cor 12:7-9, Acts 7:54-60; Acts 8:24, 1 Jn 5:11-15, Acts 1:24; Heb 7:25

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Tell me when anyone said that 'this' is the 'only' way you will pray to God or Jesus





blahbahblah also makes the point of the first post, group 3, spouting misinformation and confusing the facts with the beliefs, his and mine.

The only thing I really wanted to know was if anyone else noticed it, and perhaps why.

But i think I just got my answer.

Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

You hate christians because you hate christ, but him, you hate without cause.



[edit on 12-3-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by Mr No One
It might stem from the inherent hypocrisy in Christianity. Most Christians (especially evangelicals) will preach tolerance and understanding while they condemn any whose beliefs do not match their own. The topic of homosexuality is a perfect example. While most Catholics maintain that the act of homosexuality is a sin, being a homosexual is not a sin as long as you abstain from the act itself. Most Christians would say that even admitting to being a homosexual is a crime against God. It is this level of intolerance that causes a fear and hatred among non-Christians. I think if we were to examine the true meanings of the teachings of Christ, absent of the views thrust upon them by religious leaders, we would see that tolerance and understanding are at the heart of everything He taught. To distort and twist that message into use as a weapon against those who are different from you is, IMHO, the worst sin of all.

Jesus didn't teach acceptance or tolerance for any sin, not even homosexuality. He taught the acceptance of anyone seeking to turn away from those sins and seek after him. Why would a God who destroyed cities and nations becuase of sin, all of a sudden turn around and say that we should just start accepting it.