Baddogma's Meta Cafe- Polite Discussions About Scientific Mysticism and General Weirdness

a reply to: Baddogma

Well it started as a chat with Kantz then evolved quickly into ramblings at anyone willingly to listen

a reply to: jacygirl

Dead skin flakes fascinate some critters. That's my only input on that.

originally posted by: Rethaya
Also, because I was bored...

Frellin priceless.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I had no idea that you are that brilliant!!

You seem to understand atemporal dynamic systems with multimodal communication paradymes better than most!

I am totally impressed.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
My mind stopped at "atemporal"

*had to point to the multi level joke 'cause ego will do that...

a reply to: Baddogma

Jazz is one of the rare people I've come across who understands that reality is not especially hierarchical. It is nearly "flat".

That is what was brilliant. The understanding of the various time streams interacting in a mobeus strip fashion. No need for some ultimate "God" to boss everything around (one of the most primitive concepts of all time).

Reminded me of Bohm and the implicate order.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

exactly, reality is "flat". In my opinion also...

So who is the real doer than?
That is the million dollar question and a very important puzzle to solve if one wants to realize the Self in my opinion

SWMBO? or her counterpart? I ? some other ciritter?
or no doer? what does that mean exactly?

the belief that we have to be punished for our sins is the most powerful trap. Why is this true or not?

Just some questions to ponder for everyone reading and if anyone want to share...please do.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
thanks, that is very informative. I am impressed by how exact you sound and how much knowledge was learned, it seem like it was happening just a few year ago, not thousands : )

originally posted by: Baddogma

"Oh, of COURSE the universe would be akin to an upper level mathematics class, as they were my least favorite classes... and finding oneself in an inescapable, huge math class just friggan figures!"

The universe isn't "math". Mathematics is an invented human language which can be an efficient means of describing and predicting behaviours. In application it provides a means by which we can quantify and model possibilities and outline probable outcomes, but in essence it just does what every other language does, it defines and describes. The "answers" are not to be found in mathematics, mathematics does though improve our ability to know where, and how, to look for those answers, and how to compare what we find.

I recommend Robert Osserman's Poetry of the Universe as it gives an excellent contextual overview without diminishing any of the "magic", but essentially mathematics is a tool we invented to solve the problems of distribution. All sorts of things are distributed, such a food, weight and the stars in the sky. Some people like measuring things, that is why they become mathematicians and economists or astronomers, others, like physicists and astrologers, enjoy predicting things, like events, reactions and realities, and mathematics can be used for that too, and it works fine, until you have an improbable outcome or an unintended consequence.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Probably my fault for being too vague, but what i was implying is that yes the Cosmological basis for Deities or spiritual connectivity has never gone anywhere and remains the same today as always, but that a very particular source was rejected and seen as evil, in terms of the Fall, the tradition of the Seven Sages in Sumer from the Abzu, from which the scribal class considered themselves descended, and who created the wisdom tradition of the Tree of Life., so that isn't a question of Divinity but rather organic life from elsewhere propagating a certain message.

You may consider that well never mind any of that and we can determine whatever path we choose and create our own destiny within a mathematical construct which couldn't care less but you'd be wrong, everything is concerned with narrative and the greater basis for that is the stages the Universe went through in forming to it's present state, once awakened to understanding we embarked upon a course of either acceptance or rejection.

Mathematics is the principle of binding or unbinding in quantitative terms, binding creates patterns the basis for life, when two are bound together there is the basis for intelligence, when others join there is the basis for hierarchy, you are never going to see a question form in your mind because of hierarchy, that's as basic as contemplating why can't i see a picture on the screen when i'm not running the support for jpeg extensions.

There cannot be understood a creation function in the Universe other than the general principle of binding, that transforms potential into the potent, potency being the essential Divine nature, the awareness of one's own strength at any given moment, it's not a case of answering questions but of realizing the potential.

I don't have any issues when it comes to understanding function and don't accept there are no higher aspects to that in terms of Deities, the dysfunctional is Chaos, the ego should hardly be seen as problematic as it's our most basic function, to live as sentient individuals, the only balancing act is that finding it's place within the objective whole, individuality within a singularity is a paradox, we have a certain Goddess named Inanna that represents the principle, she does what she wants when she wants, wilful determinism, a right wing extremist whose interests are always closest to home.

The balance toward that is Anu, the singularity, the interests of the objective whole, not just Pandas, whales and black people, the entire Universe and all life therein, a total Leftie, but if you wanted to earn a winged disc of the Anunnaki flying corp you'd need to be getting the balance right.

Now if we go right back to the beginning of civilization and that first city of Uruk we find there the principle Deities Anu and Inanna, you also find the role of the vizier Nin-subur who was expected to serve both interests, quite a difficult task as Anu was simply trying to run the Universe in a sensible manner and Inanna was always trying to get as much Divine power as she could, the role of the vizier then was to try and determine a course of action that best served the interest of both parties, a useful function.

Among the divine viziers Nin-subur is the earliest and most important one, and, unlike the others of her kind, she is related to her masters not as cause and effect but rather as command and execution; in other words, she owes her importance not to the natural phenomena which her masters embody, but to the metaphor of the cosmos as a state, she is the "director" of the heavenly estate and the Anuna gods

Sort of like the old star Trek question regarding the needs of the many and the few and the doctrine of making it so...

a reply to: UniFinity

"Doing" is distributed.

It's pretty obvious, we see it moment by moment in nature.

a reply to: Anaana

A lot of scientists and empiricists are closet platonic idealists.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Nice post.

Insofar as my getting a bit giddy for a moment about the Zazz post, anytime someone shows they understand non-linear processing, and in particular taking into account so-called atemporal states, or differing temporal states, and in fact understands multi-master dependent processing.. I find appreciation for that person's words, whether all the words are necessarily "correct" or not.

Your words here:

There cannot be understood a creation function in the Universe other than the general principle of binding, that transforms potential into the potent, potency being the essential Divine nature, the awareness of one's own strength at any given moment, it's not a case of answering questions but of realizing the potential.

Perfection.

That is the basic dance of existence explained in one paragraph. This is the dance of the Two lovers. The "restlessness" is what draws out the potential into the potent. It's viewable from the void.

I love seeing high quality thinkers communicating.

Kev

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Actually this whole post is so beautiful.. may I cross-post it on my blog and comment upon each paragraph?
I'll attribute of course. Your words are beautifully phrased. It would be a crime not to have a backup copy of them.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Yes sure spread the alien doctrine around some if you like, and thanks...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Yes sure spread the alien doctrine around some if you like, and thanks...

It's not an alien doctrine.

It's quantum mechanics.

Kev

a reply to: Baddogma

I'm inserting a recent blog post of mine here titled, "The Multi-Master, Dependent State of Reality – Implications"

Quantum mechanics research has proven that “local realism” cannot be preserved. By the book: ”

Local realism

Local realism is the combination of the principle of locality with the “realistic” assumption that all objects must objectively have a pre-existing value for any possible measurement before the measurement is made .”

This is the whole “does the moon exist if nobody is looking at it thing”. Or does the moon simultaneously exist and not exist until someone is measuring it. Now that’s a subject for another post.

Now actually Bohm stated it a bit differently:

Bohm interpretation

The Bohm interpretation preserves realism, hence it needs to violate the principle of locality in order to achieve the required correlations . It does so by maintaining that both the position and momentum of a particle are determinate in that they correspond to the definite trajectory of the particle; however, that trajectory cannot be known without knowing the physical state of the entire universe.

This stance is known as “Superdeterminism”.

Metaphysics and Theology has wrangled with this for a long time as well; now in general the view (the incorrect view mind you) is that “God” runs things in a hierarchical manner.

That we humans are “down 10 levels from “God” or more” and that we have to work our way up some sort of ladder to “re-join God”.

Nothing could be further from the truth….we are “already part of God” in the most intimate manner possible.

We are like an organ that “God depends upon” (we are part of the implicate order, and every part of the implicate order depends upon every other part of the implicate order to function AT ALL).

Let me bring the first part into the picture as it hasn’t been made clear yet.. the entire REASON for the apparent indeterminate nature of “local reality” is that THERE IS NO LOCAL REALITY, (local realism) as everything is “in-flight” moment by moment.

There is no “check out a file from the server and keep it locked all to yourself”. All “files” are being simultaneously edited by “reality as a whole”, “moment by moment”.

That’s why as the movie the “Matrix” says, “There is no spoon”. There is only potential for a spoon.

Now the implications of this are HUGE.

This is why “God” cannot swoop down and rescue anyone.. nor “put them in heaven or hell”.

Everything is “process” not “solid”. Everything is eternally in motion and nothing is “done”.

It’s like every electron in the Universe “has a vote”. And that “nobody’s vote takes primacy”.

This is also why “magic seldom works” the way people want.. what with every electron having a vote.. the art of “magic” requires that the “magician” build consensus with EVERYTHING.

Now I understand that “super determinacy” is tempting..it’s like Bohm says.. it may be true that ‘everything has already been decided” that in effect we ALL “live in the past”. I’ve said it myself when I discuss how there is little or no “free will”. And I stand by that.

But I also stand by this.

(I know that sounds screwy).

But both are true.

Maximal indeterminacy due to “everyone getting a vote” (multi-master, multi-modal, trans-luminal multi-modal communication” IS TRUE. And in a sense, when “viewed outside of time” is ALSO maximally determinate.

But it’s like the highway.

Everything is in motion.

But if you take a snapshot of all states “in the rear view mirror” it all looks determinate.

This is a very long subject and needs further explanation.

Kev

a reply to: Anaana

That first paragraph is exactly what I feel and wanted to reply last night -

- only I'm so glad I was too tired to post, because you said it so much more articulately than I possibly could have!!!

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

That whole post was so lovely, I just about had tears in my eyes reading it! As well, it was a perfect summary, in simplistic enough terms, that for the first time, I have a clear view of of the essential 'elements' of the cosmogony you've been so diligently explaining to us all this time!

I particularly like the following, because it is exactly my feeling with regard to there being both purpose and necessity for the existence of ego in the individual (indeed, how could a person possibly even 'be' an individual without an ego?)

I don't have any issues when it comes to understanding function and don't accept there are no higher aspects to that in terms of Deities, the dysfunctional is Chaos, the ego should hardly be seen as problematic as it's our most basic function, to live as sentient individuals,

I think that the average person involved in 'spiritual' pursuits tends to demonize ego in general -

- rather than realize that the 'problem' is not the ego in and of itself, but the inclination of individuals to over indulge the ego causing it to become 'inflamed' with 'self-importance'...

...as long as a person has the kind of self awareness (and self honesty) to keep the ego in check, it simply serves the purpose of allowing us to enjoy experiencing existence as individuals with distinct perspectives -

- which, when combined with 'relationship' to other 'egos' serves the purpose of increasing the 'amount of variation' in existential experiences.

-- Edit to include:
Wow, I've wanted to say that for a long time but have been over-whelmed with the prospect of finding the words - so, I have to thank you for posting the perfect 'opening', as it provided the necessary inspiration to help me distill my thoughts into a coherent form!

a reply to: lostgirl

For once I 100% agree with you.

All my Advaita friends ("all is one, ego is evil", become devoured by God") always gave me a very hard time. Many spiritual people consider ego evil.

Well that's just stupid.

But on the other hand, unless you know what you are doing, your ego will swell 100 fold, then you become insane and you either die due to physical collapse and overtaxed systems, or you commit suicide to escape your own broken mind.

Supposedly "back in the cult", thousands of people died or committed suicide. I did answer Some of the letters of people pleading for help...but I could rarely help them...They had to discard their mistaken ideas "about their soul" to save them, and that was the one thing they refused to do.

Ego is what lets a sentient being be sentient. Of course there is nothing wrong with it.

But on the other hand...one must understand and learn to work with the little known symbiotic organisms which exist "behind" ego and which are far more "real" than ego. For example...there is NO "upper ego"...at least nothing like a human ego.

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

I haven't read the book, but I remember the movie version. I didn't think it was a great movie overall, and the "suicides go to hell" aspect actively annoyed my wife and I, among other things. I thought the premise was interesting enough though, considering the fact that it was more or less unique subject matter for a film. Or at least I'm not familiar with other afterlife focused films other than "Ghost" and a vague memory of some kind of romantic comedy I can't remember at the moment.

Lately I've been re-reading Robert Monroe's books and looking for connections with the stuff we've been going over in this thread, mostly because it's an interesting form of "research" I consider related to lucid dreaming and other altered forms of consciousness that I consider a lost art. I think his "rediscovery" of techniques utilizing sound and electromagnetic frequencies to affect consciousness is fascinating, although I have no idea how accurate his Institute's subsequent explorations might be. His books have a decisively positive outlook on the whole subject that I don't entirely agree with.