Testosterone Blocking & Extra Estrogen Intake.

a reply to: grainofsand

This OP was a lame attempt at blaming trans folk for hormones in drinking water.

And when it was pointed out to me that it was like .0001% of the totality of the overall problem,(a problem that still exists)I accepted it, and I moved on, you didn't, you are like a pit bull on a strawman.

originally posted by: JadeStar

Once the brain differentiation happens during the pregnancy no amount of hormone treatment, aversion therapy or anything else can change it to match the body after the baby is born.

That is why they stopped doing that ages ago. (i think in the 1960s) It's not a new thought. It was tried. A lot of really messed up people were the result of trying to get the brain to match the body. All adding testosterone to a female brain in a male body does is make the person with that female brain even more horrified with their male body and more violent towards it. You can see where that wouldn't end well right?

Thank you! I'll research Christine Jorgensen and other early treatment recipients and see what I find. I was looking for NIH studies, but I might have better luck with specific names and/or dates. I have read that besides pregnancy, a couple other critical periods are about 5 - 6 years old, and then again at the onset of puberty. Puberty would be an obvious time for disruption to occur as organs and systems mature, but I don't remember why the 5-6 years old was significant.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
And when it was pointed out to me that it was like .0001% of the totality of the overall problem,(a problem that still exists)I accepted it, and I moved on, you didn't, you are like a pit bull on a strawman.

That's cool, I'll leave you to the thread now we understand each other.
I like the pitbull on a strawman label...but only where appropriate

*Edit*
I'm the same with racism in the real world, being white I find my arguments cannot be clouded with claims of bias or victim seeking.
As a straight male who identifies with my gender assigned at birth the same bias arguments are equally redundant in discussions of gender or sexuality.
The amount of intolerant crap I've seen posted on ATS lately regarding gender and sexuality has drawn me into reasoned activist mode.
I'm sick of it and I'm quite into spending a lot of my online debate time tackling that particular bigotry right now.

Well, well, well....

Let's see, considering that I watched over the last couple decades testosterone ravage my body and the number of psychological quirks I developed trying to suppress who I am so my dear mother and the rest of the family wouldn't be "ashamed," I would state that it's better to transition earlier like Jade has. Because frankly, I've become a psychological wreck who's thought about suicide quite frequently. My mental health is so bad, I'm legally disabled. All this because I went through male puberty while trying my best to suppress my femininity. Frankly I'd say it feels closer to child abuse to force a transgendered girl to be a boy than letting them embrace themselves.

Onto to the other factors. I've always had feminine urges and tendencies as far back as I recall. I most certainly did not have an overabundance of soy in my diet. And I certainly wish tap water could have feminized me, as that could have saved me a lot of mental anguish as I watched puberty repeatedly kick me in the crotch. Drinking water and growing boobs because of it would have been a dream come true. Didn't happen, though.

Ultimately, this thread is a farce and an insult to the life I've had to endure. Thanks for pissing me off again....

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: Boadicea
In fact, for many reasons, it would seem more practical and effective to use hormone therapy to match the brain to the body -- not to change the body to match the brain. For one thing, one cannot truly change physical gender. But apparently hormones can be used to shift mental/emotional perceptions, so it would seem more effective to target hormone therapy to the physiological reality. Especially because opposite sex hormone therapy and surgery create so many adverse side affects, many life-threatening. So is it "correcting" or encouraging/promoting/worsening?

This is completely inaccurate. Hormone therapy does absolutely nothing to change the brain psychologically.

Maybe this is just semantics, but experts disagree. Hormones -- and especially hormone imbalances -- are well known to have mental and emotional as well as physical effects. Just think PMS or postpartum syndrome. People who take testosterone are known to be more aggressive and even violent. As far as transgender hormone therapy specifically, experts are unable to quantify the psychological effects, but acknowledge them. I've read accounts from transgenders who say hormone therapy did affect their sense of well-being (usually for the better). So it's impossible to say what their effect actually is.

Take your average man off the street and give him estrogen. The side effects are going to produce one very unhappy guy.

Exactly. Give someone the wrong hormones, or even too many of the right hormones, or block the right hormones, and you will suffer effects -- both physical and mental/emotional.

Gender is between the ears not between the legs...

So we have been told.... repeatedly. Again, perhaps semantics, but if you're right, then there is no such thing as gender. It's just what anyone wants to make it. (And, personally, I'm not especially impressed at what some people think being a "woman" is all about.) I want transgenders -- and everyone -- to have the best treatment possible for their situation. Ideally, that is always the least invasive and with the least potential adverse effects.

... and whatever adverse side effects you think there might be from hormones and surgery, of which I've had none in 40+ years, they could never be as life threatening as emotional agony and potential suicide without medical intervention.

I'm sure all the women who have suffered -- even died -- from excess estrogen caused breast cancer would disagree. I'm sure the many women who can't have babies because their reproductive organs have been damaged by excess hormones or endocrine-disrupters would disagree. Surgeons and anesthesiologists are the first to warn us that EVERY surgery has inherent dangers. Both common sense and my research tells me transgender hormone therapy and SRS is no exception.

originally posted by: Boadicea
And, personally, I'm not especially impressed at what some people think being a "woman" is all about.

I don't think many people care if they impress you about that particular issue
I don't.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: grainofsand

It almost feels like a religious thread lol.

But morally it is wrong for companies to make products that they know the by-products are going into the environment and they are effecting people in this way.

But they aren't. There is nothing which has scientifically established that they are. You're starting with a premise with no scientific validity.

There is actually much evidence that synthetic hormones and endocrine-disrupters are in our soil/water/food, and that they do have serious adverse effects on our health. The total extent is undetermined, however, because further research -- including appropriate treatments for those harmed -- are being blocked by those who have much to lose if the whole truth is known.

This isn't to say that synthetic hormones and endocrine-disrupters are the one and only cause for transgenderism. There are documented cases of such going back long before environmental pollution became a factor.

originally posted by: Boadicea
The total extent is undetermined, however, because further research -- including appropriate treatments for those harmed -- are being blocked by those who have much to lose if the whole truth is known.

Who exactly is doing this blocking?
Care to share an interesting link? ...but not a youtube or personal blog without references of course.

a reply to: Kojiro

testosterone ravage my body

EDIT:
On further contemplation I need to stop typing a response to this.
Instead I will just say cool avatar

a reply to: grainofsand

Well slap me silly you just keep leading me in circles, wow.

Like I said, I'm not the OP, I stated MY opinion and then referenced them? So stop complaining my references didn't validate the OP because I never intended too .

Please show me where I suggested trans folk were to blame for anything lol?

You confused or linked my posts with others and have proceeded to call me a bigot. I'll kindly put you on ignore now thank you seen as you don't have the capacity to follow a thread with multiple participants with different opinions.

Good day.

a reply to: cosmic66

Nope no confusion.

Now, back to this which you posted:

The total extent is undetermined, however, because further research -- including appropriate treatments for those harmed -- are being blocked by those who have much to lose if the whole truth is known.

Who is doing this blocking exactly?

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Why thank you. I'd say it's a vast improvement over the ugly alien grey on life support that I used to have. I've always been a big transhumanism buff.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: cosmic66
a reply to: JadeStar

Well I provided links, now please someone sensibly discuss with me

I took a look at your 2nd link. While interesting that one was not about exposure via drinking water.

Well I wasn't trying to prove that soooo....

It was to discuss the possible effects of these things... it's of the same topic as the OP, but focusing on the particular effect of Diethylstilbestrol , which has been used for over half a century as a anti-miscarriage aid among other things...

One shows how in vitro administration of DeS caused Quails, Rats and Mice to reverse gender phenotype..not physically, just the way they expressed it externally..I thought that was worth some discussion at least.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
And when it was pointed out to me that it was like .0001% of the totality of the overall problem,(a problem that still exists)I accepted it, and I moved on, you didn't, you are like a pit bull on a strawman.

That's cool, I'll leave you to the thread now we understand each other.
I like the pitbull on a strawman label...but only where appropriate

*Edit*
I'm the same with racism in the real world, being white I find my arguments cannot be clouded with claims of bias or victim seeking.
As a straight male who identifies with my gender assigned at birth the same bias arguments are equally redundant in discussions of gender or sexuality.
The amount of intolerant crap I've seen posted on ATS lately regarding gender and sexuality has drawn me into reasoned activist mode.
I'm sick of it and I'm quite into spending a lot of my online debate time tackling that particular bigotry right now.

Well here you admit your problem, your like a dog with a bone... Be a bit more human and use your brain.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: cosmic66

Nope no confusion.

Now, back to this which you posted:

The total extent is undetermined, however, because further research -- including appropriate treatments for those harmed -- are being blocked by those who have much to lose if the whole truth is known.

Who is doing this blocking exactly?

And this is what I'm talking about, WTF are you on? I didn't post that did I. Amazing, I complain about you confusing me with others...and your doin it again straight up just trying to wind me up haha.

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Cuervo

Is it healthy and natural? It's correcting an already-existing health and physiological anomaly so it's a step towards being more healthy and natural, yes. It's no different than treating any number of endocrine issues.

May I ask why you believe that? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, for many reasons, it would seem more practical and effective to use hormone therapy to match the brain to the body -- not to change the body to match the brain. For one thing, one cannot truly change physical gender. But apparently hormones can be used to shift mental/emotional perceptions, so it would seem more effective to target hormone therapy to the physiological reality. Especially because opposite sex hormone therapy and surgery create so many adverse side affects, many life-threatening. So is it "correcting" or encouraging/promoting/worsening? This is a sincere question. I have tried to research it, but I cannot find any clinical studies or anything about it.

I'm not sure why you think that. Why in the world would changing your brain be healthier than changing your body?!

I say that because the optimal medical treatment for any condition is the least invasive possible. I say that because any/all surgeries have inherent dangers, including SRS. I say that because hormone therapy for anyone for any reason has its own side effects, especially synthetic hormones (including bioidentical hormones which are synthesized from phytoestrogens), including breast cancer (as is well-documented).

That makes zero sense and I feel people only say because of their own discomfort with transgender people.

Please. I do not think or operate on such a shallow level. I do not judge people by their sex organs nor their clothes, hair, etc. I do however have a well-established distrust of Big Pharma and the FDA.

In what other situation does this logic get applied? You don't change a paraplegic person's brain to make her be okay with it. No. You modify her body in any way you can to give her the best mobility that technology can give.

Huh? Does the paraplegic person think they are able-bodied? I would want the paraplegic person's brain to acknowledge the reality.

And the side effects are super minimal when under the care of a physician. Everything is carefully monitored and pose no more risk than most medications the average American takes.

Exactly. That's not much of an endorsement.

And your belief that hormones can make a person think they are another gender is totally incorrect.

That's not what I believe. It's not that simple. There is a combo effect between the physical and the mental. Researchers have identified specific periods of development, both during gestation and after birth, in which hormones and endocrine-disrupters have can adversely affect development and maturation.

Hormonal therapy for a dysphoric transperson doesn't make the person more or less "sure" of their own gender; it simply aligns their chemistry to their correct gender.

You are very sure of yourself. I'm not. If their anatomy and their chemistry do not align, if one or the other must be "corrected," how does one know which identity is correct?

You've convinced me that you haven't actually researched the cause.

You just had to go there, huh? Do you always just believe what you want to believe? No matter how insulting to others? I've written an entire post about this issue, including crying a river about the life-threatening effects on my own daughter. I researched the effects on transgenders trying to understand the underlying processes in general, in order to help understand how and why it happens, in order to understand how to help my daughter. Go ahead and sit on your high horse and pass judgment... I will continue to research for my daughter's LIFE, and for everyone's health. Not just your self-serving and judgmental purposes.

a reply to: cosmic66

Haha no sorry, I genuinely posted to the wrong person then, sorry!
Time for bed, Monday tomorrow.
Have a peaceful night you and all, I'll be back after work tomorrow, 18 hours or so from now, bright eyed and bushy tailed...and like a dog with a bone.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Boadicea
And, personally, I'm not especially impressed at what some people think being a "woman" is all about.

I don't think many people care if they impress you about that particular issue

I don't.

Good. That's how it should be. No one should worry about what others think of them or let others define themselves in any way.

Now, if only everyone stopped defining themselves and our genders in such superficial ways, we would all benefit.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Boadicea
The total extent is undetermined, however, because further research -- including appropriate treatments for those harmed -- are being blocked by those who have much to lose if the whole truth is known.

Who exactly is doing this blocking?
Care to share an interesting link? ...but not a youtube or personal blog without references of course.

Check out the post I wrote and linked to and you will find a plethora of links with all kinds of information...

If you really want the truth though, don't trust anything I can provide... do your own due diligence.

a reply to: Boadicea

Y'know, I've been trying most of my life so far trying to deal with and accept the "reality." You know what, it has not been working. As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, early attempts were made back in the day to force the mind to match the body. That didn't work either. The head tends to reject these types of conditioning, creating a plethora of mental problems in its attempt to defend itself. So you wind up with a lot of moody, mentally damaged transgendered people who either wind up killing themselves or transitioning anyway.

And frankly I wouldn't want anyone to attempt to screw around with my head, as it's already #ed up enough as it is.