Testosterone Blocking & Extra Estrogen Intake.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Cuervo

Is it healthy and natural? It's correcting an already-existing health and physiological anomaly so it's a step towards being more healthy and natural, yes. It's no different than treating any number of endocrine issues.

May I ask why you believe that? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, for many reasons, it would seem more practical and effective to use hormone therapy to match the brain to the body -- not to change the body to match the brain. For one thing, one cannot truly change physical gender. But apparently hormones can be used to shift mental/emotional perceptions, so it would seem more effective to target hormone therapy to the physiological reality. Especially because opposite sex hormone therapy and surgery create so many adverse side affects, many life-threatening. So is it "correcting" or encouraging/promoting/worsening? This is a sincere question. I have tried to research it, but I cannot find any clinical studies or anything about it.

I'm not sure why you think that. Why in the world would changing your brain be healthier than changing your body?! That makes zero sense and I feel people only say because of their own discomfort with transgender people. In what other situation does this logic get applied? You don't change a paraplegic person's brain to make her be okay with it. No. You modify her body in any way you can to give her the best mobility that technology can give.

And the side effects are super minimal when under the care of a physician. Everything is carefully monitored and pose no more risk than most medications the average American takes. I don't smoke, drink, take any other meds, I'm a vegitarian who eats almost nothing but unprocessed foods... I think my odds are faaaar better than the average American. It's just another of countless mitigated risks people take for their medical needs.

And your belief that hormones can make a person think they are another gender is totally incorrect. If you give a man who has low testosterone levels more testosterone, he'll feel great. If you give a transwoman testosterone, she'll likely end herself. Likewise, you give a normal cisgender man estrogen, he's going to show some unwanted side-effects and get upset but he's not going to suddenly think he's a woman. Hormonal therapy for a dysphoric transperson doesn't make the person more or less "sure" of their own gender; it simply aligns their chemistry to their correct gender.

You've convinced me that you haven't actually researched the cause. Look up the brain and body development stages of a fetus. Those are the stages at which this happens. You can't turn somebody into a transgender person.

Oestrogen in the water supply was a massive talking point 40 years ago and the conclusion then was it was due to the advent of massive uptake of the contraception pill. If any of you don't know oestrogen cannot be destroyed in the natural cycle, so when women on the pill urinate it is contaminated by oestrogen. This in turn goes through the water cycle but it cannot be filtered out so in event everyone and I mean everyone is consuming small traces of oestrogen.
Well back in the seventies they said the traces are so small as to make no noticable difference. Very true in the short term but now we are seeing the results of long term exposure to minute traces, more transgender people.
Just a small question for you all. Why are the majority of transgender people leaning towards the female side and not the male side?
Answer read above.
And before anyone jumps on a bandwagon I am not blaming women, transgender people or anyone it's just the way it is.

a reply to: JadeStar

Science knows that they aren't. Whether you are aware of that is the only subject for debate.

I thank you for your participation in this thread given your relevant life experience, but the aim is to keep the discussion open, not to shut it down.

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Cuervo

Is it healthy and natural? It's correcting an already-existing health and physiological anomaly so it's a step towards being more healthy and natural, yes. It's no different than treating any number of endocrine issues.

May I ask why you believe that? I'm not so sure about that. In fact, for many reasons, it would seem more practical and effective to use hormone therapy to match the brain to the body -- not to change the body to match the brain. For one thing, one cannot truly change physical gender. But apparently hormones can be used to shift mental/emotional perceptions, so it would seem more effective to target hormone therapy to the physiological reality. Especially because opposite sex hormone therapy and surgery create so many adverse side affects, many life-threatening. So is it "correcting" or encouraging/promoting/worsening? This is a sincere question. I have tried to research it, but I cannot find any clinical studies or anything about it.

I'm not sure why you think that. Why in the world would changing your brain be healthier than changing your body?! That makes zero sense and I feel people only say because of their own discomfort with transgender people. In what other situation does this logic get applied? You don't change a paraplegic person's brain to make her be okay with it. No. You modify her body in any way you can to give her the best mobility that technology can give.

Thank you! THIS x 10000

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: JadeStar

Science knows that they aren't. Whether you are aware of that is the only subject for debate.

I thank you for your participation in this thread given your relevant life experience, but the aim is to keep the discussion open, not to shut it down.

I am not trying to shut it down, I am trying to decouple the issues because you have incorrectly linked them.

If you want to debate polluted water then change the thread title.

If you want to debate the treatment of transgender kids then change the thread title.



Right now it's a mess. So pick one or the other.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

So what exactly is this thread about then?
First it was contaminated water caused by trans folk, then parents allowing supportive hormonal treatment being potential abusers, now a general discussion of kids on meds.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
...and please if all you have is opinion with no links to research backing it up then don't bother, that is just lame and reminds me of facebook.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: EKron

You are seeing it way more in the last decade or so

I appreciate that coming from you, now we ask is the cause environmental or societal ? Or a bit of both?

No, we're seeing it more because of television and media in general and a greater awareness and acceptance of the condition. Visibility of the issue is higher. When I grew up, gender dysphoria was a perversion or mental illness. Now that it is at least acknowledged as a real thing, rather than live life completely screwed up and tormented, people are able to seek professional help. People like us have always existed.

originally posted by: crayzeed
Oestrogen in the water supply was a massive talking point 40 years ago and the conclusion then was it was due to the advent of massive uptake of the contraception pill. If any of you don't know oestrogen cannot be destroyed in the natural cycle, so when women on the pill urinate it is contaminated by oestrogen. This in turn goes through the water cycle but it cannot be filtered out so in event everyone and I mean everyone is consuming small traces of oestrogen.
Well back in the seventies they said the traces are so small as to make no noticable difference. Very true in the short term but now we are seeing the results of long term exposure to minute traces, more transgender people.

Except that's not true. Transgender people make up the same percentage of the population now as in decades previously. It's just that society is more open to talking about it now.

Just a small question for you all. Why are the majority of transgender people leaning towards the female side and not the male side?

That's also not really true. It goes both ways. If anything blame the media for skewing the picture thus forming the idea that the majority are female.

For them (media) its more dramatic. The bar of femininity is higher in society than the bar of masculinity. So it is easier for someone to pass and be accepted as "one of the boys" than as one of the girls. Throw in the ideas that a transgender man is going to move up the socioeconomic ladder while a transgender woman is moving down the socioeconomic ladder and you see why they do this. It's the same reason it is more of a social taboo for a boy to be girly than it is for a girl to be a "tomboy". There's more "shock value" in one than the other. And we know how the media loves to use that for ratings don't we?

Answer read above.
And before anyone jumps on a bandwagon I am not blaming women, transgender people or anyone it's just the way it is.

Um...except that it isn't.

a reply to: JadeStar
a reply to: grainofsand

Well some are taking extra hormones and blocking others on purpose, others are getting small amounts through other environmental factors and it's not their choice. We are discussing the implications of this, so yeah the topic is going to bounce around a bit, and I never intended it to focus just on the transgender issue exclusively. Although that's the way ATS members posting here have moved it, and I followed along.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: JadeStar

Well some are taking extra hormones and blocking others on purpose, others are getting small amounts through other environmental factors and it's not their choice. We are discussing the implications of this, so yeah the topic is going to bounce around a bit, and I never intended it to focus just on the transgender issue exclusively. Although that's the way ATS members posting here have moved it, and I followed along.

Ok, the problem as I see it is that you are confusing the dosages which someone like me who took t-blockers and hormones as a preteen/teen did with the very, very, very tiny amount of estrogens in the water supply.

Also no one talked about psuedo-estrogens in plastics, etc.

The amount of estrogen i took regularly/daily as a teen was measured in milligrams.

The amount of estrogen in the water supply is measured in parts per million at best.

Those are vastly different things in terms of scale.

I have no idea how much water I'd have to drink for it to have matched what I was prescribed as a teen but I suspect i'd still be drinking it and not have reached what I received in day 1 of my hormone regime.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
I never intended it to focus just on the transgender issue exclusively. Although that's the way ATS members posting here have moved it, and I followed along.

I don't believe you sorry, I think you are backtracking now as your argument fails quite poorly.
You said this in the OP:

First off I was reading about transgender people who do this to help their change along.

Is it that healthy ?
Is that natural ?

For either sex I guess, the other way would be to take testosterone and block estrogen.

Where does any of that imply anyone other than trans folk exactly?

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Yeah but you are attributing it to trans folk who are taking hormone therapy, they are a tiny percentage of the population and such a link is laughable at best.
How about looking at agriculture and foodstuffs instead of making some lame inference that trans folk are making us all gay and trans...oh noes!!!

...you clearly did not read my earlier link regarding hormone levels in trans kids, oh well, you have your right to an opinion, as do I to dismiss it as silliness.

That's fine ;-) my point was it is cumulative and I would like to see you dispute that FACT.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: grainofsand

if all you have is opinion with no links to research backing it up then don't bother, that is just lame and reminds me of facebook.

Since when do we need links with any opinions we may have ?
I freely admit, there is a level of supposition and conjecture on my part in this thread.

Here are the details:

1)There is extra stuff, in our environment, put there by people, and we are absorbing it.
2)We don't know 100% how it is effecting us.
3)We don't know, if it is contributing to people being gender confused.

If you don't want to discuss it, don't post then.

a reply to: grainofsand
Fair enough I'll get some articles for ya

Prenatal Exposure to Diethylstilbestrol -

The Presence of Gender Dysphoria, Transsexualism, and Disorders of Sexual Differentiation in Males Prenatally Exposed to Diethylstilbestrol: Initial Evidence from a 5-Year Study

ENDOCRINE DISRUPTERS: A REVIEW OF SOME SOURCES, EFFECTS, AND MECHANISMS OF ACTIONS ON BEHAVIOR AND NEUROENDOCRINE SYSTEMS

Endocrine Disrupting Chemicals as a Source of Environmental Stochasticity

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Okay, of course any contribution will make a difference, but put it into perspective, here's the estimates for the UK: huntingdonshire.gov.uk

These estimates would suggest that the
trans population represents between 0.1% and 0.6% of the UK population aged 16 or over.

Your argument, while correct that all hormone treatment contributes to water contamination, remains ridiculous while you focus on trans folk before all the other contributing factors.
It isn't even worth the thread in my opinion, but saying that, the OP is more concerned about the arguments against providing treatment for trans young people.
The OP was deceptive as far as I see it, and you perpetuate the deception with silly claims that less than 1% of the population should even be considered when we are discussing homones in the water supply. Ridiculous.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: grainofsand

if all you have is opinion with no links to research backing it up then don't bother, that is just lame and reminds me of facebook.

Since when do we need links with any opinions we may have ?

All opinions are not created equal.

Informed opinion backed up by links to useful information is what ATS is supposed to be about.

Anyone can go to any number of forums for ignorant opinions. ATS is about denying ignorance. How does one deny ignorance? With knowledge from reputable sources.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: grainofsand

if all you have is opinion with no links to research backing it up then don't bother, that is just lame and reminds me of facebook.

Since when do we need links with any opinions we may have ?
I freely admit, there is a level of supposition and conjecture on my part in this thread.

Here are the details:

1)There is extra stuff, in our environment, put there by people, and we are absorbing it.
2)We don't know 100% how it is effecting us.
3)We don't know, if it is contributing to people being gender confused.

If you don't want to discuss it, don't post then.

Numbers 1 and 2 have some discussion potential.

But number 3 is pretty easy. We do know that giving cisgender folks massive amounts of hormones does not turn them into transgender people. So we can surmise that a teeny-tiny-minuscule fraction of what is prescribed by doctors cannot be having that effect.

This is one you can test yourself. If you take a ton of estrogen (I'm not advising you to do this, of course), I can promise you that you will not suddenly have the need to transition. You will just get angry at all the extra cardio you would need to do in order to work off those man boobs.


ps edit - I just realized some of you may be thinking of exposure in the womb vs exposure as an adult. I can see why a person would be interested in that since that's where the condition starts. I honestly don't know enough about how water supplies work to weigh in. I've lived mostly on well water my entire life.

a reply to: JadeStar

Well I provided links, now please someone sensibly discuss with me

a reply to: cosmic66

I skim read your links, very interesting thank you, but none of them show a link with water supply and trans people who drank it.
Two of the links are just about diethylstilbestrol prescribed to women to prevent miscarriages, different issue all together.
I'd try again if I were you.

...and how about be clear about what it is you are asserting? Are you saying people are becoming trans because of drinking water, or trans people are contributing to chemicals in the water supply which are causing people to 'become' trans as others are lamely making out?

a reply to: cosmic66

Thanks, this is why ATS is great.

Now we have our links and we can move off the "but you have no links" rhetoric.