The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

Right is right and wrong is wrong.

We all have common sense I believe we can speak on what is a higher path that which doesnt promote needless suffering, and that which is a lower path which promotes needless suffering. One is clearly good while the other is clearly bad.

Look at it form a human point of view, to kill someone when there is no reason to kill the person meaning they are innocent and undeserving of death we will all think that would be wrong.

Now look at a person who is commiting crimes and attrocities all over the earth a real villian we would say that his death wouldnt be wrong because we need him gone so others could live in peace. So killing him wouldnt be wrong to many it would be seen as he had it comming for his villiany.

Clear right and wrong, take the same point of view with animals they are innocent and we dont need to kill them to survive at all. Many would think its wrong to kill innocent animals wile many others think its totally fine, its not a pissing contest and can be discussed.

Some may believe its just wrong to kill animals when there is no need to for our survival, because people dont need them to survive and they are only doing it out of the want to do so, plants arent enough people want more. Some may believe that without the real need or reason for doing the violent act of imprisonment and slaughter of animals which amounts to torture these actions should be considered unethical and immoral.

If this was done to humans we would consider it immoral and unethical, because people dont need to eat other people, we have animals for that. The same can be said for animals we dont need to eat them at all, its just people like doing it.

It would be moral and ethical to develop other means to sustain the population without the need to cause suffering in the animal as well as the plant kingdoms. Should our society work towards doing this we could be moving away from what many may believe to be immoral habits.

a reply to: Involutionist

I just left my door open...come kick it down so I can really tie this conversation up. Go on...poke me one more time.

Poke you? Get over yourself

I get tired of people who've seen some - stuff telling everyone else that their priorities are out of order, they have no right to this, they have no right to that - and that they can't possibly understand - life

People like me - have seen our own things in life. It's not actually a contest - and you're not actually an expert because you've seen things

Honestly - people who've been arguing for peace - against war, against brutality, for compassion, against violence...

yes - we're useless

Let me have it then - let's see what you're made of

a reply to: FormOfTheLord
I eat meat. But it generally depends on what I am doing. And in this day and time its pretty hard to not into meat foodstuffs everywhere you go. Were omnivores so ya I could survive without meat, and given a different lifestyle I could try to do the whole vegan thing. However I would not likely succeed. In all eating to much meat is not good for you. I try to balance things out, but mostly I just hit the fast food joints.

The day they got fast food joints which taste as good and are as convenient as most burger joins. I will likely give them a try. But i burn a whole hell of a lot of calories per day, I could literally eat a whole large pizza on some days, then burn it all away in 3 hours and be hungry again. Meat is just the fastest way to get the most protein and nutrients needed and taste factor as well.

I dont think its such a big deal to stop eating meat as most people make it out. In fact I did some years back and I was still gaining weight from eating vegges and non meat related food, veggie burgers and things like that, or non meat Indian foods, though quantity wise I had to eat a lot more of that to fill me up or to keep me going. For the most part, at least for me, its merely a matter of convenience. Its pretty dam hard to stay away from eating meat.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I eat meat. But it generally depends on what I am doing. And in this day and time its pretty hard to not into meat foodstuffs everywhere you go. Were omnivores so ya I could survive without meat, and given a different lifestyle I could try to do the whole vegan thing. However I would not likely succeed. In all eating to much meat is not good for you. I try to balance things out, but mostly I just hit the fast food joints.



The day they got fast food joints which taste as good and are as convenient as most burger joins. I will likely give them a try. But i burn a whole hell of a lot of calories per day, I could literally eat a whole large pizza on some days, then burn it all away in 3 hours and be hungry again. Meat is just the fastest way to get the most protein and nutrients needed and taste factor as well.



I dont think its such a big deal to stop eating meat as most people make it out. In fact I did some years back and I was still gaining weight from eating vegges and non meat related food, veggie burgers and things like that, or non meat Indian foods, though quantity wise I had to eat a lot more of that to fill me up or to keep me going. For the most part, at least for me, its merely a matter of convenience. Its pretty dam hard to stay away from eating meat.

Do what feels best for you, follow your bliss, youll be blessed if you do and blessed if you dont.
However our society cant find a better way until it at least accepts there is a problem, if our culture is in denial of a problem, then it wont ever be addressed, and unneeded suffering and slaughter of countless lives when we have alternatives is indeed a big problem. Perhaps we need better alternatives, like 3d printed superfoods that give us more than enough energy to survive indefinatly likened to superhumans.

All food is addictive and releases dopamine like a drug when we eat, different tastes will get the brain more exited, and some things like B&J's ice cream can put some people into withdrawl lolz. . .

This thread isnt to tell you to become a vegitarian, its to discuss the morality or immorality of our society with our killing of animals when we really dont need to.

Nothing like discussing a big elephant in the room that no one really pays attention to because its everyones friend. . . .

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Further more:

Compassion is compassion. Right and wrong are for you conditional - and on a sliding scale. You'll do the right thing - but only if you can also dismiss the people who agree with you as some kind of imposition

Right and wrong are indeed conditional. Let me ask you this question: If you had to choose between saving a three month old baby or three month old kitten from a blazing inferno; which would you choose?

We value human life more than we do animal life. Contemplate my above question honestly and you will come to realize that it is very true that Right and wrong are for you conditional - and on a sliding scale

...but not only for me.

originally posted by: Bedlam
You have to be in a weird frame of mind to watch them with proper appreciation. Mind you, I think you could butcher animals with a bit more kindness than generally happens,but for the sort I could convert to food around the farm, I tried never to let them know it was coming until they woke up on the Rainbow Bridge, if you know what I mean. The factory line butchering doesn't work that way.

You can't do cows yourself unless you've put a lot of money into butchering the occasional cow. I can do up to a big deer here, and we never had pigs. But the guy that did our cows would get ours ready to go, calm them down, a bit of patting and bam! shot to the head. They didn't have time to know they were about to buy it, and he never let them see, smell or hear the one that went before so they weren't worked up or afraid prior.

I definitely respect this and am well aware of the fact that were I on strawman island (the one with nothing but pigs to eat) I would undoubtedly cause more suffering to any individual animals due to my lack of experience in this area than you would for instance.

Two small heifers or one grass fed cow would do us the year, if hunting was good. Fish, chickens, eggs, the odd bit of venison and a couple of veggie days a week and it's all you need. The goats were for milk or pets.

And once you bring grass fed cow and/or hunting into the mix and most of my environment argument goes out the window, as well as half of the thermodynamic argument. But I still wouldn't kill an animal unless I was going to die otherwise.

But hey, at least rendering plants really nailed that Native American sentiment of use the whole animal lol.

Well, you see, that's pink meat right there. You've a moral obligation to eat that McD's if you're going to use the whole animal.

I'm a bit ambivalent on that. I don't believe in wasting any of it you can use, we even used to tan deerhide if you got a good one, and that's a miserable chore. But for battery hens, those things ate recycled/rendered chickens all their lives.

Don't forget the chicken poop lol.

Now, you input some pesticides and herbicides into that loop, the chickens eat it and store it plus god knows what in terms of heavy metals in their fat, livers and feathers, then you render the fat, skin and feathers back into chicken feed, so it loops back over and over.

I'm actually surprised they don't glow in the dark without any genetic mods.

Carl's Jr had an ad campaign out a while ago where they had a nice super healthy and fit hen standing around with a censor bar on the chest.

I laughed and laughed and laughed at all the meaning in there. We're suggesting that the hens most people eat aren't crazy obese monsters that can't even stand for the most part, but are picturesque farm hens. Chickens do look pretty close to being mutants at this point for sure.

Ours foraged two to three seasons a year, we had a small millet field they would rummage in along with the guineas and quail, and they helped keep the gardens and yard free of bugs, and the scuppernongs and muscadine vines cleared as far as they (and the dogs, oddly) could reach. So they were what I would guess passes for organic except for their oyster shell and scratch feed they got for treats.

Oyster shell? lolwut. I assume that means the crackers?

It's the only chickens I'd eat the livers of. Can you imagine what's in battery chicken livers?

I'll let you imagine that one lol.

Also Asia and fish sauce. Because why let all those vegetarian dishes stay vegetarian

a reply to: Involutionist

Right and wrong are indeed conditional. Let me ask you this question: If you had to choose between saving a three month old baby or three month old kitten from a blazing inferno; which would you choose?

And - if some random guy from somewhere might kinda sorta know if somebody somewhere had a bomb that would kill a million people - it would be OK to torture that guy - just in case - right?

Extreme arguments don't answer these questions or solve these problems. In poor countries they don't have the massive corporate farms that we're arguing against in this thread. Maybe those people are also cruel to their animals - does this mean I shouldn't try to change things here?

Because there is some bad in the world - we no longer need to be bothered by any of it?

In my world - I can care about kittens and babies. If I'm ever in that particular situation though - I'll be sure to come back here and let you know which way I went

a reply to: Involutionist

If I valued human life more than animal life why wouldn't I encourage people to eat something that is far more energetically efficient and which is much more able to sustain the world's population, a billion of whom don't get to eat that much?

I'm more than happy to break down how many calories it takes to make a cow and how many calories you get out of it (it's not a good ratio). And how much of the food we grow goes specifically to livestock, at the expense of those who have nothing to eat.

So I'm pretty sure I can care about both issues pretty well.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Some may believe its just wrong to kill animals when there is no need to for our survival.

You have not proven this to be true. You have in no way proven that our survival does not depend on killing animals. Do we depend on eating them for survival? No, but we depend on the killing of animals to maintain our standard of living.

You have been complaining about people not knowing what morality is and you mention ethics, but you are not adhering to the classical framing when discussing them. You constantly change your phrasing and the act in which you are referring to. When it suits you it's only about eating animals, but then in responses you yourself make statements like the one quoted above. You like this high (what you do) verus low (what somebody that eats meat does) line of thinking and use it in spite of saying many times that you are not judging. When you say your path is right and others paths are not you are judging.

You are making the assumption that everybody has the same resources that you do and having those resources allows you to be moral. Enjoy your entitlement. I'm sure the migrant laborers picking your food and living in bunkhouses will be very glad to know that their hard work for minimal wages and no benefits allows you to have the moral high ground over them.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

In my world - I can care about kittens and babies. If I'm ever in that particular situation though - I'll be sure to come back here and let you know which way I went

I care about both, but not equally

One does not need to be placed in that actual situation to know that deep down in their core programming they value human life over animal life. You will never choose your beloved dog over your own child. Let it marinate

a reply to: Involutionist

You will never choose your beloved dog over your own child. Let it marinate

Is this is your best argument against animal abuse?

a reply to: framedragged

Please read my above comment. It addresses your concerns as well. Btw, I am well aware that 30% of grain worldwide that can be used to feed those starving from famine are used to feed cattle sold for mass consumption. I am also well aware that many vegetarians have no qualms about wearing leather belts, buying leather purses, boots, and countless other products as they take a break from shopping for these things by wolfing down a falafel wrap.

You type these comments because you believe those that eat meat are contributing to the immoral practices of slaughterhouses but so are the ones who purchase products as well. I know many vegetarians who seem oblivious to this truth.

Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.

a reply to: Involutionist

Again, my entire and only point is that I do not need to kill animals for survival, so I do my best to remove myself from all such practices. I don't know what some people buying leather has to do with any of this conversation at all, especially since most western vegetarians are vegetarian for health reasons and not ethical reasons.

I have at no point, in any of my posts, used the word 'morality' except to address the fact that none of my posts are about morality. I can obtain a perfectly balanced nutritional profile without eating meat. I can live a perfectly happy life without leather. Or goose down, wool, insert-additional-unneeded-comparisons-here.

I don't eat animals because I don't need to eat animals to survive. If I did I would. But I don't and won't.

Will not eating animals prevent from you starving? Well since outside of hypothetical straw man island every piece of nutrition in an animal is also plentifully available in plants*, then, uh, no it won't. Are the steaks in a grocery story threatening your safety? No they aren't.

The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.

Not a single person in this thread can debate that. If you try I'll just laugh like I do when evolution deniers pop up. You think you know more about nutrition than the American Dietic Association? Cause if you are going to try and argue this point you are arguing with scientific data.

So please, come in and justify killing animals because you want to.

Because that's what this thread is really about.

*Except for b-12, another supplement which many omni's need to take.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Is it moral to push your idea of morality onto the meat eaters? Plants have also been shown to have rudimentary intelligence in some studies if i recall.

Its only Immoral if you do it with cruelty and with no regard to sufferring liek the halaal way of meat preperation. No stunning to reduce pain or putting them to sleep painlessly before preperation.(yes they did or do have chambers that put the animals to sleep but they are exspensive)

Also Ive seen people who are healthy as horses,and who eat nothing but vegtables drop dead from heart failure or something else so eating veggies all the time is not a guarantee of a long life.

Now if we get replicators one day that make a steak just as good as real ill eat it,but currently they do not have them perfected.

I love animals though. Fried,baked,broiled,roasted on a spit. Bambis mom was really good eating too.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Right and wrong are an artifact of the ethos of the community you dwell in.

I personally have a tendency to be vegetarian, however I don't think eating meat is bad per se. However in the society nowadays, it is totally brought out of proportions, where animals are numbered to slaughtered. That is totally ridiculous. If you want to view it from a religious perspective I see it this way, everything that feels good is a reflection of a fundamental truth in the existence. F.e. sex may be frowned upon, however it is probably the most beautiful thing there is. However one must be extreeeeeemely careful when doing it, for lust can easily take over. This is the worst that could happen. The same goes for eating meat. If one respects the animal, but also the fact that it is nutricious, especially for athletes, than one can eat it. However, in the society nowadays this respect is totally destroyed and like said before the animals are numbered to be slaughtered which is terrible.
Conclusion, eating meat is not bad per se, but the way it is happening right now is.

PS. for those who are vegetarian, I really understand you, I was it to for a while, however when I started to train heavily I started eating meat again. This however was not for the taste or something, but pure for its nutritions. The energy released could be used for a goal to protect them. It may sound contradictory, but I hope you understand.

originally posted by: framedragged
Don't forget the chicken poop lol.

Actually, we used the chicken poop. They would poop up the hay in the chicken enclosure until it got pretty ripe, about once a week while the chickens were in the yard it fell to one of us to shovel it out and into the newest compost heap. You have to compost chicken crap about 90 days before you put it in a garden or flower bed, or it'll burn the plants. But it really spins up the compost in terms of nitrogen content. Then once the compost hits about 90-120 days and has cooled off you spike it with red wigglers out of the worm bin, let 'er rip about a month and it's ready for the truck garden.

We're suggesting that the hens most people eat aren't crazy obese monsters that can't even stand for the most part, but are picturesque farm hens. Chickens do look pretty close to being mutants at this point for sure.

I'm not sure the chickens Tyson brings you are the sort that would work well on a farm. I know they're not normal chickens.

Oyster shell? lolwut. I assume that means the crackers?

No, chickens need supplemental feed of hard minerals. They'll eat very small rocks when they need them, because chickens don't have teefus. They load their gizzards up with little rocks, and that grinds up the food. Occasionally, they'll barf it up and reload when the rocks lose their edges.

Since they also need calcium for the eggs and for their little bird bones to stay healthy, what you do is you buy a 50 pound bag of limestone grit and crushed oyster shell for the little barstids. When you put new hay in the chicken enclosure after said shoveling activity, you cast a nice sized dipper or two of chicken minerals and scratch feed onto the hay. They love that, and will purr and fuss and scratch all in the hay like an easter egg hunt or some damned thing to get a crop-load of grit and oyster shell. The grit's a better mix than what they'd get in the yard: northeast Georgia is rife with dolomite and magnesium-laden rocks, a lot of magnesium is bad for a chicken. If they're going to pick up rocks to eat, it's better to pen them in at night with a wide selection of tasty attractive non-magnesic grit to select from. I generally tossed some scratch feed down to get their interest up as well. Straight shell has too much calcium in, so you want a bag of something like 70% limestone to 30% shell.

Well.

My oh my... This thread at least has a conclusion.

The OP is plenty happy eating his burgers that are filled with yeast extract (which btw is billions of microbes, colonies of life, once living animals, mmmmm I guess that's where the flavour comes from?)

The OP will ignore things that are tricky. THATS FINE!

Because the thread was about MORALITY.

As humans, we are all different and as such the answer is simples. We all have different morals. In the OP's eyes, I am an immoral monster. Thats fine. His morals, his views. My line of morality is different, I think the OP's choices are filled with hypocrisy and go against what we have evolved to eat. That's ok too, because we all form are own morals.

Morality is grey, it depends on how you were raised, what country you are from, friends, thoughts, society. We build little morality roadblocks in own heads. Everyone has the right to form morals which may or may not be the same as others.



So that's your answer OP. Morality can not be pigeon holed for everyone, we all have our own.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

There are various substitutes to eating meat would any of those stop you from eating meat?

I've tried them and as of yet, found one I like.

What if they could make it taste the same or even 3d print meat for you would you eat it over the real thing then?

Give me a taste test, we'll go from there. Until then, Nope.

There are plenty of veggie meats that have fooled people into thinking they are real meat, would you eat these over real meat? I have tricked a few friends with vegi meat on multiple occasions just to see thier reactions.

Ummm, how shall I put this??? Ewww!

I am guessing that most would still want real meat reguardless of how advanced fake meat is or how real it tastes because its not the real thing.

You're assuming an awful lot of everyone in here, most of whom, I'm guessing you haven't even met. Quite presumptuous!

Is it moral to eat animals when you dont need to?

I honestly could not tell you that/ I can say sacrifice of animals and the eating of them is in the Bible. As much as things change in the NT, we are still fishing and eating them and other animals in the presence of Jesus. I would gather it is pleasing it in God's eye then, but I don't presume to know though, so I could be wrong.

Do you even care at all about the possible immorality of eating animals when you dont need to as there are alternatives that can fool anyone?

How about the possible immorality of starvation? Is that a better alternative? I live in a building that is predominately senior citizens. Over 85% of them get Meals on Wheels and Food Pantry delivered to their apartment. Both have meat products. I get Food Pantry items delivered to my apartment because at the moment, my budget is very tight. Let me give you an idea of what it in it.


2 things of juice
1 pint of milk

10 pounds of chicken quarters
10 pounds of potatoes
5 pounds of onions
5 pounds of carrots
various canned goods

Now the chicken had obviously been butchered already, and was frozen already. I'm hungry, but what would you have me do? Throw out the chicken because it is immoral? Starve and eat only the potatoes, carrots, and onions, along with the various cans? Or is it ok to eat the chicken and not starve because it would be more immoral to waste the food? Sometimes there is no thinking to be done when it comes to your food.

When someone is homeless and they enter a soup kitchen looking for a meal, I'm sure they aren't thinking, boy I sure hope it's vegetarian! Otherwise I am starving tonight! It's immoral to eat chicken and dumpling soup!

a reply to: Bedlam

Ah, that makes perfect sense. General farm skills and knowledge are things I would love to acquire, minus the all but required vacation to truly learn it. Maybe I'll get a garden when I have my own space.