The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord


There are plenty of veggie meats that have fooled people into thinking they are real meat, would you eat these over real meat? I have tricked a few friends with vegi meat on multiple occasions just to see thier reactions.

This is so much more amusing turned the other way...

"I have tricked a few vegans with real meat on multiple occasions just to see their reactions".

Brings a smile to me face, it does.

originally posted by: framedragged
a reply to: Bedlam

Ah, that makes perfect sense. General farm skills and knowledge are things I would love to acquire, minus the all but required vacation to truly learn it. Maybe I'll get a garden when I have my own space.

I'd love to have enough acreage to be able to work one with a minimum to zero of chemical supplements, but that's a nearly-lost technique outside the Amish. One you ought to be able to sustain if you could recondition the land a few years, but you can't get as much produce per acre that way.

eta: I grew up doing this stuff, 4-H and FFA. Don't feel bad!

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I am not trying to defend animal abuse at all. I believe those who purchase products made from animal by-products can be considered to be also contributing against animal abuse as well.

This is why I prefer to have my clothes, furniture, etc custom made. How about you? How are you doing your part to curb animal abuse? How is that leather belt holding up?

It's laughable how humans got to this point just fine without all of these prescription drugs, yet modern humans think we need this garbage. Same goes for food.

I am a very light eater. I eat mostly nuts and fruits, and drink lots of water.

I never get headaches, nor have I even been sick in 15 years. Everyone around me eats like a slob, drinks coffee or soda, and get sick like dogs constantly.

Gee, I wonder why...

To each his own I guess.

originally posted by: Involutionist
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I am not trying to defend animal abuse at all. I believe those who purchase products made from animal by-products can be considered to be also contributing against animal abuse as well.

This is why I prefer to have my clothes, furniture, etc custom made. How about you? How are you doing your part to curb animal abuse? How is that leather belt holding up?

By that logic everyone should be tried for war crimes just because they live and pay taxes in the Countries they live. WHat about plant abuse? what about land abuse? what about air abuse? All those things are abused in th emaking,production of your clothes,food,and lifestyle. Life is Aboue Using things to survive. Also do oyu know how many things you use that have animal by products in them and you dont even know? Also some places are too poor off to eat liek a rabbit. Should they feel bad they are contributing to animal abuse?

NO. you know why? Because they dont get to choose how a animal i s treated. We dont get to decide how a animal is treated. Japanese eat horses for example. to them its just meat but to a cowbow what is it?
If we didnt buy it other cultures will. Not everyone has the same morals.

a reply to: Involutionist

This is why I prefer to have my clothes, furniture, etc custom made. How about you? How are you doing your part to curb animal abuse? How is that leather belt holding up?

You want to argue even when we agree

This isn't about you - or me

I don't buy leather - anymore. You assume way too much

originally posted by: framedragged
a reply to: Bedlam

Ah, that makes perfect sense. General farm skills and knowledge are things I would love to acquire, minus the all but required vacation to truly learn it. Maybe I'll get a garden when I have my own space.

Something else I meant to mention was that you can turn the goats loose on the pasture where the cows are and they'll generally keep the fence line almost clean of brush, as well as polish off random weed infestations, although for some reason there's some things they randomly won't eat. They're also good for cleaning out the truck garden area in the late winter/early spring before you plant by eating the weeds to death and turning them to goat poo, as well as enjoying the millet patch along with the chickens, guineas, quail and the occasional hapless dove during dove season.

And a good milk nanny will produce about a gallon of milk a day, all we could drink and then some, and you generally have two lactating at any one time, so you have enough for some butter. Goat butter is white and has a nice flavor that's not quite like cow butter, I like it better but grew up with it. What you don't use the chickens are glad to have. More, a good nanny will produce milk long long after the kid is gone, about a year if you milk them twice a day. We had one I am not sure would have ever dried but you got to give them a break.

Not only do you not have to breed them as much as a milk cow, they're a lot friendlier, it's like having a big frisky dog that follows you around and not only can you play with it and pat it but it gives you milk and butter. It won't fetch but it's a lot of fun anyway. Plus they'll keep the weeds down. And your garden if they get half a chance, but they do like veggie scraps like pea and bean pods, potato peels and the like. So stuff you might otherwise compost you can goat-cycle.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko

It's not the same as preaching a faith though

I think the OP has taken a lot of abuse for how he chose to present his views - he or she might have gone about it a little differently. I understand his feelings though - and the fervor - and the attempt at appealing to people's emotions and sense of right and wrong. There's really nowhere else to go with this kind of thing

When you consider what the OP actually about, you can see it's not about forcing a faith - it's about stopping actual cruelty in real life

Just sayin'

It's interesting how this subject (like many others) turns into a contest of wills. Most people love animals. Most people would object to seeing an animal abused, much less participating in that abuse. But - if you make this about right and wrong and threaten a supply of something people feel entitled to - all that goes out the window

Morality, ethics - philosophy - all of it is flexible and conditional

You make some good points in this thread and echo my thoughts in a previous post. The above caused me to think about my experiences with hunters. I have no problem with hunters but I have met so many who justify their hunting (no need to do so in my eyes btw) by going into things about mass produced food living off the land etc and then turn around and joke and laugh with their buddies about a dog or cat or what have you that they killed simply for being around or a nuisance. I think deep down you either care or you don't. I say this to reiterate your above statements.

People will not change most of the time and are used to comfortable patterns of behavior. However for those that do care we need to have more alternatives available which is why vegetarianism is a realistic alternative for some( just not for me currently, been there done that). Mass produced meats and such are what have lead to things like "pink slime" and fat glues. The quality has declined and the treatment of the animals is abhorrent. I labor under no delusions that animals were well treated in the past but since the rise of the industrial revolution it has simply become worse and worse.

This debate is a microcosm of how I feel about a number of things. We are forced to participate in a sick society with any viable alternatives being controlled and eliminated for the all mighty dollar. Few people will divorce themselves from their inherent need to defend their actions and simply take a moment and realize 1. what they ingest (in reference to the slimes and glues etc) and 2. You really have no alternatives that are attainable as an average individual and then question why.

Personally i'm not fazed if it's meat or vegetables that i eat. Sure theres some inner calling to eat meat but it could just be that i was raised eating meat. If eating meat is a genetic trait that humans possess (not sure if it is idk) then imo morality only comes into play in a religious sense or if there is animal cruelty involved. Would be good to have lab meat for those times the meat eaters need a feed.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

This debate is a microcosm of how I feel about a number of things. We are forced to participate in a sick society with any viable alternatives being controlled and eliminated for the all mighty dollar.

What you just said applies to so much more than producing mass quantities of meat. Nothing more I can say except - I read your earlier post, and yes - we see all this pretty much the same way

Sometimes the best I can do is to try not to think about it

a reply to: Bedlam

I knew that the legend of lawnmowing goats had to have a basis in reality! Do goats get bursitis? Cause if they produce milk after the Kid's needs then I wouldn't have any problem ingesting it* and if they get bursitis then I don't have an issue with them being milked a lot. Always knew goats were cool anyway

*Other than not wanting to drink milk as I'm not a baby lol. In all seriousness, nothing has ever impacted my diet more than cutting milk out. It was a rather... obvious and immediate digestive change.

a reply to: yuppa

Buddy, I am a meat eater...

I ate like 25 wings in the first quarter of the Superbowl game alone as they tossed around that pigskin. Btw, if you read through the previous three pages of this post, you will come to see that I already stated things along the same line.

Cheers; prost; and Salute.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Fair enough. Sorry, was distracted a bit during the game. I feel you my friend. Have a great week.

a reply to: Involutionist

Your team won?

:-)

Just guessing - room just feels a little lighter...

Have a great week right back atcha

I didn't eat meat (or much dairy) from the time was 14 until i was 30, roughly six months ago. i noticed several changes shortly after i began reintroducing meat into my diet. i hadn't been able to drink beer for over 5 years, it would make me sick instantly, (whiskey, wine and cider were all fine), now i can drink beer with ease. i put on a few pounds, but it mostly went to my chest making me a bit broader. i had a chronic and painful wound on my finger that hadn't healed in years, it went away almost instantly. i can think faster now, and find that i'm less patient in frustrating situations, less docile.

its amazing, now i eat meat every day, every meal, and i feel better than i ever have in my life.

I think many of the replies in the thread would lend thier answers to the I dont even care catagory.

Even if a better way was developed which didnt include suffering at all, many in our civilization wouldnt care at all about the mass torture and slaughter of animals they would still want the real thing just because. . .

One factor that always threw me off when discussing the "morality" of eating meat was the fact that Jesus presumably ate meat when he was here. He also fed meat to his disciples and that was after his crucifixion when they were fishing and he told them to throw the net on the right side of the boat. He was on shore and had cakes and fish made for them. The issue of morality is not as neat and tidy as we would like it to be and in fact can cause quite a lot of mental anguish when we try to make it all fit into our neat little boxes.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

BACON . Chew On that Vegan.................

originally posted by: framedragged
a reply to: Bedlam

I knew that the legend of lawnmowing goats had to have a basis in reality!

You *can* let them go in the yard but they have a number of bad habits, one, they'll eat up the flowers, two, they will pick areas of the yard and not crop them. I don't know why. And three, they like to make goat nests (there's probably a real term for it) where they scrape the grass away to the dirt to make a bed in the summer. Not to mention the goat bombs.

Do goats get bursitis? Cause if they produce milk after the Kid's needs then I wouldn't have any problem ingesting it* and if they get bursitis then I don't have an issue with them being milked a lot. Always knew goats were cool anyway

You mean mastitis? If you dry them up too fast. You can start drying them right away but most people let them lactate for about 10 months. Some goats will give milk forever, most of ours would go six months or more. Goat milk is tasty and doesn't separate quickly, if you are drinking it about the same rate as you get it from your goats you'll never see it separate in the fridge. It's naturally almost but not quite homogenized.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

So essentially, you really believe that the thousand ancestors of yours that brought you to this point in time, alive and healthy according to your own estimating, were all "immoral", and thus bad, people?

Kind of a slap in the face considering the hardships they endured to get you where you're at.

Your response will invariably be: "But there are so many options now! We are an evolved society!"

To which I will reply; Did lack of options make our ancestors immoral people? No, they were not immoral people and truthfully the options you are presenting for alternatives to meat do not present a realistic and humane solution to a world of human beings that require food. Unfortunately our world cannot sustain forever the industries required to generate these meat alternatives, raising your own animals and growing your own vegetables will always be the most simple and practical solution to feeding your own family, and it's still done in many many parts of the world, right now.

Hop off your high horse, if you would. You are not better than anyone else nor are you more of a moral person because you're taking advantage of an all time high in industrial technology, making possible your diet of hipster fad vegan foods.

You're just one of us, and probably could use a nice juicy hamburger.

If you still want to debate this, consider that plants are living things too, so really unless you plan on subsisting upon air, there are no unharmed living things out there. If anything, you should feel extra bad since plants are unable to even express their suffering to you in any way you can understand. Think about that while you crunch down on that poor helpless carrot.