The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Address the issue of morality of killing animals for food when there is no need, that is the only topic on this thread that needs discussing.

Address the issue of the nature of morality of killing animals for food. Is it immoral for an omnivore or a carnivore to eat meat?

Yes...or...no.

Your whole position rotates around this. Is it immoral for any omnivorous or carnivorous animal to eat meat? Without discussing this, you HAVE no position, no argument.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLordPlease address the moral or immoral reasons for killing animals in our modern age where we dont need to at all if there are any.

Maybe FOTL, if you answered your question first, we could all get a handle as to the context in which you'd like us to respond.

Why do you think it is immoral to kill animals even though there is (to you) an alternative?

For myself, vegetarianism is NOT an alternative. Tried that for a time and eventually my East Indian Ayurvedic doctor told me under no uncertain terms that I was to NEVER not go without animal flesh. Basically I almost died while being vegetarian. But that's beside the point. And I'm still allowed to eat vegetables.

Any "synthetic" food substitute will never been as wholesome as real food. Food isn't all about the components of the meal, there is a "spiritual" aspect of food that we require as well. Synthetic food has no "spirit" therefore would not allow us to thrive and evolve into better beings.

Did you know that if you were ever stranded on an island in a part of the world you've never been before, you should NEVER eat the plants? A lot of (non-domesticated) plants are actually poisonous to humans. In fact, things like tomatoes, potatoes and others are part of the nightshade family. They actually still contain trace amounts of poisons that harm people. Celery used to be toxic back in our hunter/gatherer days as well.

Cheers

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



I don't know why you keep posting that video everywhere. It is in your OP isn't that enough for one thread?


Maybe you should define what you base your morality off of because the post I replied to you about had you equating moral and immoral with necessary and unnecessary. If you continually move the goalposts on how morality is defined you will find very few will ever agree with you on what is moral.

The moral questions stated in the video aid in keeping the topic focused on moraliy of right and wrong and not on me. No one is moving the goal posts its been a I love eat so its moral conversation from most, and that has zero to do with an intelligent discussion. Address the issue of morality of killing animals for food when there is no need, that is the only topic on this thread that needs discussing. List some reasons and draw them from the classical principals based on morality in your answers if you can.

Im listening. . . .

I can't give you answer on how something is moral or immoral unless you explain how you define how you judge morality.

I have certainly learned on these boards morality is not a constant and everyone/group uses different criteria to judge morality. If you are not willing to define the criteria you use to judge what is moral in your opinion then you must not be willing to honestly debate the issue you claim is immoral.

For example twice now in posts you have said eating meat is immoral because it is unnecessary. So far, that seems to be the only criteria you have based your morality off of. Obviously by that we have different ideas on what morality is based off of, but I am giving you the opportunity to elaborate on your criteria. If you decline to do so then so be it.

originally posted by: Aleister


To the biblically religious amongst us, did you know God directed people to eat vegan? Where in the bible? It's on the first page! The first thing God said to man! Ole Genesis 1:29, which the New World Order should read and disseminate daily.

You are either unfamiliar with the Bible or are being intentionally dishonest to support your view of not eating meat.

Yes, in the beginning God directed humanity to only eat plants. However after the Flood God told Noah that humanity was to eat both plants and animals.

Genesis 9:3 - Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Address the issue of morality of killing animals for food when there is no need, that is the only topic on this thread that needs discussing.

Address the issue of the nature of morality of killing animals for food. Is it immoral for an omnivore or a carnivore to eat meat?



Yes...or...no.



Your whole position rotates around this. Is it immoral for any omnivorous or carnivorous animal to eat meat? Without discussing this, you HAVE no position, no argument.

As I thought youve got nothing to say about the morality of killing animals for food when it isnt necessary. Just deflect away from the OP as usual.

Lol this is all you got?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
I didn't mean to dash off Tex - I was being called to dinner...vegetarian curry and a nice vegetarian pad thai

:-)

That seems to be what agitates people: being told that their behavior is immoral.

There are thousands of threads here at ATS that prove exactly that. You're right - nobody likes to be told anything even close to that

This is a very long philosophical discussion that can only happen if people are willing to get into it. That's obviously not going to happen

Fake meat is not meat - and I personally have never seen the point in eating a fake version of something I've given up. Food is amazing - even without meat. I don't miss it. I was quite the carnivore - until one moment when I suddenly wasn't

That said....if we can improve the quality of life for any creature, be they food or not, I am all for it

I'm a realist. I know most people are not going to become vegetarians. There is no reason we need to keep tolerating what happens to animals on these massive corporate farms. I can't in good conscience keep my mouth shut when I know there are millions of animals in this country suffering every moment of their waking lives

Yeah - I know - this doesn't make me popular

Animals have no say. People are angry if someone tortures a dog - they have no idea what a pig endures

They joke about it

To end on a cheerier note - thanks about the avatar. And thanks for your help. I needed a sunnier monkey :-)

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Oh, and one more thing:



Thoughts?

a reply to: Involutionist

Was there a thought involved in posting that? What does it prove?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

It's not a question of morality.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

You've now made it quite clear that all of your attempts to appear as though you want a legitimate discussion on this issue were disingenuous. You repeatedly have chosen to address only the people that you can easily brush off by constantly repeating the mantra you've insulated yourself in or by reformulating your question. You've wasted as much space and energy on complaining about people not answering the OP as any of the people you're complaining about.

Every product you buy, every plastic wrapper around your textured soy products, every time you flick on your electricity, and every time you turn on your gadgets you are contributing to the rape of the planets resources which results in the death of animals at your hands. I'll go a step further and say it's likely contributing the suffering and death of other human beings as well. You can afford cheap meat alternatives because poor countries are used to further advance the 1st world standard of living. In 2013 93% of the US soy crop was GMO, which means they can tolerate herbicides to increase yield and bring down the prices for us ever so fortunate 1st worlders.

In the yes/no black/white world you're presenting the only absolute moral option is to die because that is the only way you can stop taking away from every other living thing. I don't necessarily disagree and wonder how much nicer the planet would be without us on it, but I'm not going to stop living. Is it moral to kill animals? No, but we're all doing it anyway. Does morality somehow stop at eating them versus crowding them out of their habitat or putting dams in the way of their ancestral spawning grounds?

I answer your OP with a no. So now that I've answered very directly is there any possibility that you will discuss further the valid points? How do we reconcile your concept of morality with the continued survival of our species?

We are doing sheep kind and cow kind a favour.....how many of these would be alive if we did not eat them.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Yes, and thank you for asking. First off, I do not have any issues with vegetarianism and enjoy many veggie meals. Yet, I do not do so because I think it is immoral to eat meat. I just eat what looks good and smells yummy to me. Some days its a big ass juicy medium rare steak (Chicago Style) . To become a vegetarian for moral reasons suggest an an unconscious expression to balance some inner-demons. An unconscious act of clearing one's conscience. Those of us who choose to express our omnivore sides are guilty of doing the same as well in different ways.

There are many positives to eating more vegetarian meals and if one is going to eat meat then go the organic route; or eat only what you kill yourself. If most people had to kill their own meat; skin it; gut it; etc. I bet more people would be growing gardens. I, however, have killed my own meat and it was absolutely delicious!

While the op is not keen on acknowledging the attempts of others to discuss the morality or immorality if said poster disagrees with them, I will try again.

I raise ferrets. Ferrets are obligate carnivores, hence the reason I feed them a raw diet, I even feed them live prey.

Yes kibble exists as an alternative, but kibble comes with health consequences. Even the highest quality kibble is a recipe for disastrous health issues in ferrets that could be prevented by feeding an all natural diet.

So, is it moral or immoral to feed them meat when alternatives are available, even if it means their health will suffer as a result?

You see, I believe it is the same for us, we are not meant to eat food that came from a lab.

a reply to: FaithandArms

After the flood (I don't believe in the literal worldwide flood, but will imagine it just for discussion sake) God looked around and saw that he'd killed all the plants. Whoops. So the only thing moving around were the animals from the ark and their offspring, so yeah, he said to Noah and his peeps, "OK guys, eat the passengers".

The first thing God said to humans was to eat vegan (Genesis 1:29, on the first page of the bible) while giving instructions of how to live in the garden of Eden. American civil rights activist James Bevel theorized and taught that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden was flesh - that the tree that people shouldn't eat of was the meat, the corpses, of Eden's animal occupants. But once Adam and Eve started chewing and gnawing on the bodies of their neighbors, pass the ketchup please Eve baby, God shook his white-haired head and showed them the door toots sweet.

The point is, if you want to get back to how God meant people to eat in paradise, it's as easy as pie. Vegan pie!

Lots of points being made that have zero to do with the morality vs the immorality of killing animals for meat when we dont need to do it at all to survive.

I am begining to think many have no idea what morality even means, when they are doing things they may consider immoral they just say, hey its not immoral because I do that, so it must be all good, why because I can do no wrong, I am in harmony with nature, I am above any law of moral conduct, I am blah blah blah fill in the blank . There is no ethical difference between right and wrong when it tastes good and gives me some protien thats all the reason I need to mass slaughter animans.

If you have reasons that you think its moral or immoral list them.
If your going to ask me some question about plants or something go look at page 7 for my answer to the morality of eating plants when we have no alternatives at the moment.

Also this thread is only about killing animals for meat when we dont have a need to.

If you cant address that issue I will consider you may be in denial of what we are doing as a society because it may indeed be immoral thus you think its wrong so dont want to address it.

a reply to: FormOfTheLordb

In some cultures eating dogs is encouraged (giving the term 'hot dog' another twist on the Barbie), and I wonder how the posters here who eat meat and also own and love dogs would feel if one of their neighbors took a liking to Fido and barbecued her. What they would think about that is what some vegans and vegetarians think about meat in general. So yes, morality is in the eye of the beholder. Viewpoints are individual and as varied as there are individuals. And by individual, I also mean Bessie the cow and Shirley the gyro, ah, I mean, sheep.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

It's an outstanding point, the problem might lye with eliminating all leather goods, abstaining from products that imposed animal testing and shunning any advancement in science that might have come from mistreatment of animals. Where do we draw the line? Is there a line, is ownership of a pet a form of animal slavery?

It is certainly a good point, maybe if people were still required to kill the animal they intended on eating consumption would go down.

It is a fair argument that mankind might never have survived as a species if we were forced to be subsistent farmers, other carnivorous animals might have eaten us into extinction. Yes, that is a stretch but is it immoral that other animals eat other animals, and when I'm in Thailand and I eat bugs, is that ok, or is that also immoral?

There is so much grey area, but it's always good to examine our intentions when it comes to other life we share the planet with.

When I was a vegetarian, a carnivor once noted "you are far more cruel eating poor defenceless vegetables, uprooting them from the embrace of Mother Earth, at least animals had a chance to run away in prehistory".

It was a jibe of a statement but where do we draw the line, is fish ok, just mammals, or do they have to be able to cry? It's so complicated.

originally posted by: Aleister
a reply to: FormOfTheLordb



In some cultures eating dogs is encouraged (giving the term 'hot dog' another twist on the Barbie), and I wonder how the posters here who eat meat and also own and love dogs would feel if one of their neighbors took a liking to Fido and barbecued her. What they would think about that is what some vegans and vegetarians think about meat in general. So yes, morality is in the eye of the beholder. Viewpoints are individual and as varied as there are individuals. And by individual, I also mean Bessie the cow and Shirley the gyro, ah, I mean, sheep.

Yes you do make a good point of eating dogs and then there are whales and dolphins, ive sat in a few chat rooms where people have prided their "friends" with eating looters during hurricanes yes cannabalism in Florida of all places.

So I think many people may have no actual morals at all and are just reating to thier environment.

Yes if its something they love they feel bad about eating it, however if they are seeing it as a seperate thing from themsleves then I think it matters alot less in thier minds.

Yes I eat plants, I feel for the plants too, and if I had a different choice like live on sunlight like superman sure I would do that no problem, however there isnt such a way available right now so its just captain crunch and tofu till the day I die lolz.

It would seem that right and wrong, good and evil are in the eye of the beholder to a degree. But if someone ate a friend of yours because they could and your friend wasnt smart enough to defend himself or herself, and this someone thought they were totally being a moral citizen I am sure many would disagree that this person was being moral.

Take it out of human context, someone eats your pet, thats not moral either. How about someone eats thier own pet? That would strike some moral metal as well for many.
How about if someone ate a fetus or an already dead body? That too would be immoral to many. So there is a limit to what we as people see is immoral good and bad, right and wrong.
To kill something when we dont need to may be wrong to some, however when its thier lunch many may believe its no longer immoral because they want to eat those animals, no other real reasons have bubbled to the surface in our modern society so far.

I would love to hear some good reasons why people think its morally justified or morally unjust to kill animals when there is zero actual need to for our survival as a species.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Captain Crunch and tofu? Well, put down your worries and pick up your spoon when you cook www.abovetopsecret.com... these babies!