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I would love to hear some good reasons why people think its morally justified or morally unjust to kill animals when there is zero actual need to for our survival as a species.
Its up to you to decide if its immoral to you, or if you feel moral and justified in the eating and slaughter of innocent animals who are at our mercy.
An example of normative ethical philosophy is the Golden Rule which states that, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."
Morality can be a personal question, so everyone has a different idea of what is moral for them I guess.
In our society we hold some ideas to be moral while some other ideals to be immoral, it really comes down to peoples perspective.
Thats great and all but the immorality of eating meat when it isnt necessary or even needed is the issue of the thread. . .
Yet, I do not do so because I think it is immoral to eat meat.
I, however, have killed my own meat and it was absolutely delicious!
It's not a question of morality.
originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: MrConspiracy
MrConspiracy: "The meat has already been killed and prepared - you being a veggie won't change that."
Less people eating meat = less animals being born, bred and then slaughtered for that purpose.
originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
As I thought youve got nothing to say about the morality of killing animals for food when it isnt necessary. Just deflect away from the OP as usual.
Lol this is all you got?
originally posted by: Ksihkehe
I answer your OP with a no. So now that I've answered very directly is there any possibility that you will discuss further the valid points? How do we reconcile your concept of morality with the continued survival of our species?
originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Bedlam
Now I know you mentioned carnivore and omnivore animals eating other animals...but let's begin with the supposition that humans are to manifest a higher order of living compared to animals ( If we can't begin there then the debate belongs in another thread imo ).
...karmic debt for ourselves...
originally posted by: poncho1982
How do you know someone is vegetarian?
Don't worry, they will tell you.
originally posted by: framedragged
The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.
Not a single person in this thread can debate that.
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes.
originally posted by: HarryJoy
Now many yrs later I am returning to the idea of vegetarianism from a different perspective....not from one of morality but from logic and common sense.
You did a good job of side stepping the points I made by claiming not to believe in karma. That may be and perhaps you don't believe in justice either....but I think you do and I really don't think you want to delve too deeply into this issue.
originally posted by: Bedlam
originally posted by: framedragged
The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.
Not a single person in this thread can debate that.
Um, white crow here.
Yes, a single person can.
Let's look at your cite:
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes.
Note the weasel wording, and the part where they slip in the vitamins you won't get enough of, and that you have to properly plan in order for a veggie diet to be adequate, and that you'll need supplements.
Your using the argument of need. You don't HAVE to do this. You don't HAVE to do that. Well, no, you don't. I could live on a milk monodiet with enough supplements. Or a wheat monodiet. Or just about anything that provides enough base caloric intake, with enough supplements. I don't HAVE to eat anything except dog kibble and vitamins.
By the same argument, I don't HAVE to have a house, I could live in a barracks,
I don't HAVE to have a family,
I don't HAVE to have transportation, I don't HAVE to have especially clean water, I don't HAVE to have anything to read, I don't HAVE to have any education, I don't HAVE to have a phone, a TV, a computer, any entertainment at all. I don't HAVE to have a lot of things, except a few hundred calories of anything I can digest, and some supplements to make up for what that doesn't provide in the way of a balanced diet, and a bit of barely adequate shelter.
It isn't immoral to also HAVE other things - you probably like your veggies cooked, for example. Don't HAVE to have that, it uses fuel and creates a carbon debt. You could eat those veggies raw and cold.
The whole argument from need thing is sort of sparse. It's generally what people lay on you when they're trying to coerce you and have nothing to offer. Surely you can do better. But you don't HAVE to.
Let's start with, if you HAVE to supplement your diet to make it adequate, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. If you HAVE to carefully plan your diet to make it balanced, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. That doesn't mean you can't - we're very adaptive, and if it's your personal choice to eat a diet you weren't designed for, have at it. It isn't immoral if I don't join you, though.
originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Bedlam
I know enough to recognize when a person is firmly entrenched in their beliefs and are happy there. I was a vegetarian for 10 yrs or so and actually started eating meat because I felt that my religion made people feel that if they were not a vegetarian then they were not accepted by God. I didn't want that association being made to God so I found myself eating meat in rebellion to it.
Now many yrs later I am returning to the idea of vegetarianism from a different perspective....not from one of morality but from logic and common sense.
You did a good job of side stepping the points I made by claiming not to believe in karma. That may be and perhaps you don't believe in justice either....but I think you do and I really don't think you want to delve too deeply into this issue. One thing I know about "animals" is don't mess with their food or you might get bitten.
originally posted by: framedragged
I don't carefully plan, or supplement my diet with anything other than DHA and the occasional B and Iron vitamin. Things that even some omni's need to supplement. I also take some strength training supplements which many omni's also take. I put both less thought and effort into preparing my food that I used to, while getting a much more complete nutritional profile than I did previously at almost the exact same monetary cost. At the same time, I spend the same amount on food while buying better food.
Further, I even promise that my bloodwork is nice and pretty and shuts my anti-veg doctor down