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The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

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posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 08:17 AM
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How do you know someone is vegetarian?

Don't worry, they will tell you.



I get that you don't agree with eating meat, and that is your right.

I like meat, I do not have the same moral objections you do, that is my right.


You have to know that posting videos, and telling people they are immoral for eating meat will NOT get a single person to change. It's a lot like politicians. They all just preach to their respective choirs, and nobody from the other side cares.

I will continue to eat meat. We are omnivores, our tooth structure proves that, (molars, canines, and incisors) We do not have the teeth of an exclusive herbivore, we do not have the teeth of an exclusive carnivore either. We have a combination of the two.

Be vegan, or vegetarian, or whatever you like. Do that, be happy and enjoy your life.

Just don't expect me, or any other omnivore to do the same. We don't have any hangups about it as you do.




posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 08:27 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord


I would love to hear some good reasons why people think its morally justified or morally unjust to kill animals when there is zero actual need to for our survival as a species.

I don't feel it's immoral. I need not give an answer why. My morals are mine and yours are yours. You can think others are immoral for eating meat but you can't expect them to live according to your feelings on the matter.

Here are some of your statements in the thread:


Its up to you to decide if its immoral to you, or if you feel moral and justified in the eating and slaughter of innocent animals who are at our mercy.



An example of normative ethical philosophy is the Golden Rule which states that, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."

It's a good rule in general but it applies only to how people should treat each other, IMO. That's cool with you, right?



Morality can be a personal question, so everyone has a different idea of what is moral for them I guess.

In our society we hold some ideas to be moral while some other ideals to be immoral, it really comes down to peoples perspective.



Thats great and all but the immorality of eating meat when it isnt necessary or even needed is the issue of the thread. . .

Eating meat is immoral to you but not for me. The narrow scope you're trying to enforce basically limits the thread to being not much more than just a poll.

In closing, remember it's been said,
"There is unrest in the forest,
There is trouble with the trees,
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas." ~ some Canadian

Given your fondness for the video, I present this for your contemplation



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 08:31 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

Now I know you mentioned carnivore and omnivore animals eating other animals...but let's begin with the supposition that humans are to manifest a higher order of living compared to animals ( If we can't begin there then the debate belongs in another thread imo ).

Maybe I'm wrong...but it seems to me that if we purposely cause or condone the suffering of another conscious life then we have created some form of karmic debt for ourselves. So that leads me to believe that if I condone the suffering/killing of other creatures in order to gratify my appetite I have incurred some form of karmic debt ?

Now let's just pretend that the debt for me condoning the slaughter of a chicken was for me to have to be that chicken and experience as that chicken whatever it went through so that I could eat it....would that seem fair to you ?



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 09:08 AM
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a reply to: Involutionist


Yet, I do not do so because I think it is immoral to eat meat.

If we agree that eating meat is not immoral, do you think we might finally be able to discuss how abusing animals is immoral?


I, however, have killed my own meat and it was absolutely delicious!


When people make comments like this they kind of give their hand away



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: HarbingerOfShadows


It's not a question of morality.


Why not?

Honestly - I would love to hear your thinking



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 09:53 AM
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a reply to: Spiramirabilis

It's no surprise that people who eat meat don't think of it as immoral. I didn't for over 38 years, and had plenty of meat on my plate in that time to start thinking about it. Nope. Not for a moment, at least for the first 34 years. It takes only a moment in a lifetime to realize that other animals are alive as you are. That's a turning point, that touch of empathy, and then the next step is realizing that "Ah, people? There's a corpse on my plate. Can anyone come and take it away please, and put some food on there instead." That takes awhile longer. Those who get there are, imnho, very lucky indeed.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I would keep eating the real thing no matter what. I'm more carnevour than plant eater. I feel good when eating meat.. Just like a lion.

Other than that, I got huge k9 teeth, and really enjoy a bloody/rare beef steak. So there is no reason for me, at all, to deny nature and stop eating meat.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:10 AM
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originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: MrConspiracy


MrConspiracy: "The meat has already been killed and prepared - you being a veggie won't change that."

Less people eating meat = less animals being born, bred and then slaughtered for that purpose.


For moral reasons I presume? I understand people who don't like meat. But veggies who then eat fake meat confuse me. One person giving up meat won't stop the billions that do. So if you like meat - eat meat.

I understand the moral reasoning to an extent - Why should animals be bread to eat? And some of the ways animals are kept is utterly terrible - I'm with anyone on that. But wild animals eat meat - they have little-no moral compass when it comes to their survival. It can't be that bad to kill for food, right? It's been done since time began.

I'd try vegetarianism - I think it's great for some people (If you think it's morally wrong to kill animals for food - I get it!) But it would probably be an inconvenience to my family to start refusing the meat they all eat. Unless I tried to change my entire families diet - I don't have a good enough reason to pursue that.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:10 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

The food chain doesn't include morality.

We aren't herbivores. If you didn't have a grocery store, you would not be able to live off being just a vegetarian, if you had to rely on your local area for food.

Your ability to be a vegan/vegetarian is a direct result of science, transport etc. I choose the eat meat, because I like meat.

I buy meat from local butchers, who source locally. So I don't see where the morality argument comes into play. Now if I were buying eggs and meat from say, one of those huge meat slaughter houses/ crazy chicken coops places, sure, I'd be immoral.

But I buy from people who treat animals the same way our ancestors did. With respect.

Actually, some would say, that if we hadn't started sucking the bone marrow out of things we killed, our brains may never have gotten as large as they, as quickly a they have.

~Tenth



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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I will say I am omnivorous but went through a vegetarian phase for about 2 years. My objection was to the method in which meat is now produced and the mass housing and slaughter. Even as a meat eater currently I still find it morally repulsive the way the animals are housed and slaughtered. I just wish there was a happy balance that could be found. Get rid of the Tyson's and others and go back to locally sourced or homegrown alternatives. At that point my moral objections would no more. Meat is ok for consumption but institutionalized torture and zero compassion for the living conditions should be something decent people are at least concerned with.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:28 AM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
As I thought youve got nothing to say about the morality of killing animals for food when it isnt necessary. Just deflect away from the OP as usual.

Lol this is all you got?


Like I thought, you don't dare go there, do you?

Is it moral for ANY animal to eat meat? Come on, you can address the flaw in your argument. Stop sticking your hands over your eyes and going la la la la.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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originally posted by: Ksihkehe
I answer your OP with a no. So now that I've answered very directly is there any possibility that you will discuss further the valid points? How do we reconcile your concept of morality with the continued survival of our species?


He doesn't want discussion, he wants validation. That's why he keeps trying (and failing) to box the discussion in to "do you agree with me yes no" with his constant complaint that any actual discussion of the point is off topic.

FOTL: you are skipping wildly around to AVOID discussion of the context of morality inherent in your assertion. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:39 AM
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originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Bedlam

Now I know you mentioned carnivore and omnivore animals eating other animals...but let's begin with the supposition that humans are to manifest a higher order of living compared to animals ( If we can't begin there then the debate belongs in another thread imo ).


If you believe in Karma (I do not) then you were put here to be what you were put here to be. If you are an omnivore and are not omnivorous, then you have lived unnaturally. You ARE an animal. And do you not believe that lions think? Killer whales? Chimps? Yet they are omnivores and carnivores also. Perhaps their thought is not LIKE yours, but they think. Who says yours is "higher" or "better"?



...karmic debt for ourselves...


I don't believe in karma. The choice to be vegetarian seems to be personal taste, veganism often seems to be a cry for attention and self-validation.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:40 AM
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You know, I was going to come in here and talk about thermodynamics, but people don't read facts and figures when it's something they feel personal about.

It's not wrong to kill to keep yourself alive. Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life. Self defense and sustenance are both both perfectly acceptable scenarios wherein you are more than within your 'rights' to kill anything and everything that is preventing you from living.

Will not eating animals prevent from you starving? Well since outside of hypothetical straw man island every piece of nutrition in an animal is also plentifully available in plants, then, uh, no it won't. Are the steaks in a grocery story threatening your safety? No they aren't.

The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.

Not a single person in this thread can debate that. If you try I'll just laugh like I do when evolution deniers pop up. You think you know more about nutrition than the American Dietic Association? Cause if you are going to try and argue this point you are arguing with scientific data.

So please, come in and justify killing animals because you want to.

Because that's what this thread is really about.



originally posted by: poncho1982
How do you know someone is vegetarian?

Don't worry, they will tell you.


How do you know someone knows someone is vegetarian?

Don't worry, they'll tell you.
edit on 1-2-2015 by framedragged because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 10:57 AM
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originally posted by: framedragged
The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.

Not a single person in this thread can debate that.


Um, white crow here.

Yes, a single person can.

Let's look at your cite:


It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes.


Note the weasel wording, and the part where they slip in the vitamins you won't get enough of, and that you have to properly plan in order for a veggie diet to be adequate, and that you'll need supplements.

Your using the argument of need. You don't HAVE to do this. You don't HAVE to do that. Well, no, you don't. I could live on a milk monodiet with enough supplements. Or a wheat monodiet. Or just about anything that provides enough base caloric intake, with enough supplements. I don't HAVE to eat anything except dog kibble and vitamins.

By the same argument, I don't HAVE to have a house, I could live in a barracks, I don't HAVE to have a family, I don't HAVE to have transportation, I don't HAVE to have especially clean water, I don't HAVE to have anything to read, I don't HAVE to have any education, I don't HAVE to have a phone, a TV, a computer, any entertainment at all. I don't HAVE to have a lot of things, except a few hundred calories of anything I can digest, and some supplements to make up for what that doesn't provide in the way of a balanced diet, and a bit of barely adequate shelter.

It isn't immoral to also HAVE other things - you probably like your veggies cooked, for example. Don't HAVE to have that, it uses fuel and creates a carbon debt. You could eat those veggies raw and cold.

The whole argument from need thing is sort of sparse. It's generally what people lay on you when they're trying to coerce you and have nothing to offer. Surely you can do better. But you don't HAVE to.

Let's start with, if you HAVE to supplement your diet to make it adequate, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. If you HAVE to carefully plan your diet to make it balanced, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. That doesn't mean you can't - we're very adaptive, and if it's your personal choice to eat a diet you weren't designed for, have at it. It isn't immoral if I don't join you, though.
edit on 1-2-2015 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

I know enough to recognize when a person is firmly entrenched in their beliefs and are happy there. I was a vegetarian for 10 yrs or so and actually started eating meat because I felt that my religion made people feel that if they were not a vegetarian then they were not accepted by God. I didn't want that association being made to God so I found myself eating meat in rebellion to it.

Now many yrs later I am returning to the idea of vegetarianism from a different perspective....not from one of morality but from logic and common sense.

You did a good job of side stepping the points I made by claiming not to believe in karma. That may be and perhaps you don't believe in justice either....but I think you do and I really don't think you want to delve too deeply into this issue. One thing I know about "animals" is don't mess with their food or you might get bitten.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 11:36 AM
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originally posted by: HarryJoy
Now many yrs later I am returning to the idea of vegetarianism from a different perspective....not from one of morality but from logic and common sense.


Logic tells me that if you have to supplement it to make the diet work, it's probably not balanced properly. If I eat omnivorously, I don't have to think about it at all.



You did a good job of side stepping the points I made by claiming not to believe in karma. That may be and perhaps you don't believe in justice either....but I think you do and I really don't think you want to delve too deeply into this issue.


It's because I don't. I don't believe in reincarnation, other than you're eaten by bugs and bacteria, so I guess in a way your substance returns to life - just not you.



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 11:44 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: framedragged
The animals died because you wanted them to die. Not because you needed them to die.

Not a single person in this thread can debate that.


Um, white crow here.

Yes, a single person can.

Let's look at your cite:


It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes.



So an appropriately planned diet is healthy eh?



Note the weasel wording, and the part where they slip in the vitamins you won't get enough of, and that you have to properly plan in order for a veggie diet to be adequate, and that you'll need supplements.




That's a morning smoothie, sandwich for lunch, and a salad. And look at that, a mild discrepancy in salt, you got me! I might even take a DHA cap later.




Your using the argument of need. You don't HAVE to do this. You don't HAVE to do that. Well, no, you don't. I could live on a milk monodiet with enough supplements. Or a wheat monodiet. Or just about anything that provides enough base caloric intake, with enough supplements. I don't HAVE to eat anything except dog kibble and vitamins.


Yes, I don't need to kill animals. I don't need to mess with animals for anything short of dangerous medical testing. And if in the future we didn't need to do that I'd flip on it. Human lives are unquestionably more precious than animal lives.



By the same argument, I don't HAVE to have a house, I could live in a barracks,

But we agree on the point of shelter unless we're going for more of a:
"-framedragged will die of exposure in 5 turns. What would you like to do?" type scenario.


I don't HAVE to have a family,

Tell that to mine lol.


I don't HAVE to have transportation, I don't HAVE to have especially clean water, I don't HAVE to have anything to read, I don't HAVE to have any education, I don't HAVE to have a phone, a TV, a computer, any entertainment at all. I don't HAVE to have a lot of things, except a few hundred calories of anything I can digest, and some supplements to make up for what that doesn't provide in the way of a balanced diet, and a bit of barely adequate shelter.

It isn't immoral to also HAVE other things - you probably like your veggies cooked, for example. Don't HAVE to have that, it uses fuel and creates a carbon debt. You could eat those veggies raw and cold.


But that's not my argument, I'm not arguing against filling wants. My argument is that I don't think it's ok to kill something for wants. I'm obviously typing this on a fancy computer with a smartphone sitting next to me. I have no illusions about the state of human affairs in Asian mass electronics production.



The whole argument from need thing is sort of sparse. It's generally what people lay on you when they're trying to coerce you and have nothing to offer. Surely you can do better. But you don't HAVE to.


Morality doesn't have any bearing on this conversation as far as I'm concerned. It's not 'wrong' or 'bad' or 'evil' to kill things. In fact, it's even necessary on many occasions. But I know that I am not willing to kill something I do not need to kill. And I don't need to kill animals to eat. End of story.



Let's start with, if you HAVE to supplement your diet to make it adequate, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. If you HAVE to carefully plan your diet to make it balanced, it's probably not what you were designed to eat. That doesn't mean you can't - we're very adaptive, and if it's your personal choice to eat a diet you weren't designed for, have at it. It isn't immoral if I don't join you, though.


I don't carefully plan, or supplement my diet with anything other than DHA and the occasional B and Iron vitamin. Things that even some omni's need to supplement. I also take some strength training supplements which many omni's also take. I put both less thought and effort into preparing my food than I used to, while getting a much more complete nutritional profile than I did previously at almost the exact same monetary cost. At the same time, I spend the same amount on food while buying better food.

Further, I even promise that my bloodwork is nice and pretty and shuts my anti-veg doctor down


edit: typo
edit on 1-2-2015 by framedragged because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: HarryJoy
a reply to: Bedlam



I know enough to recognize when a person is firmly entrenched in their beliefs and are happy there. I was a vegetarian for 10 yrs or so and actually started eating meat because I felt that my religion made people feel that if they were not a vegetarian then they were not accepted by God. I didn't want that association being made to God so I found myself eating meat in rebellion to it.



Now many yrs later I am returning to the idea of vegetarianism from a different perspective....not from one of morality but from logic and common sense.



You did a good job of side stepping the points I made by claiming not to believe in karma. That may be and perhaps you don't believe in justice either....but I think you do and I really don't think you want to delve too deeply into this issue. One thing I know about "animals" is don't mess with their food or you might get bitten.



Well karma fits in with the golden rule of do to others what you would want them to do to you and its not just for perole its for everything. Its morality from the naturalistic point of view, why shouldnt it aply to animals as well as plants any life should be respected from a morally good point of view. There is no reason to not respect anothers right to life, especially if its just because you want to eat them for protien, go get some kale add a bit of olive oil add a oinch of salt and bake it till its crispy and youve got some kale chips full of protien lol.

Bedlams point is animals eat other animals so that makes eating anything just fine even if you have an alternative, which makes no sense in a moral arena of need vs want. Wanting to do something that causes another being suffering is to be considered bad, especially if you dont need to do it, you just want to do it thus it may be immoral because its not out of necessity its out of gluttony. You have countless kinds of foods to eat as alternatives but still must kill animals as well.

Now to plants yes I think a way should be made that we dont need to kill them as well either, 3d print our food at an atomic level and this would no longer be a problem.

However I think with 3d printed food many people would still want to kill animals for food, not out of need but they just want a real dead animal, and dont consider that the animal has a right to life.

As to karma I think we have infinate lives, animal lives too, and it would be a special kind of tortuous hell to be born as an animal and eaten by our society, but the wheel of birth and death must turn I wouldnt be suprised if that karma came back on each and every one of us in some form or another. I think of it as this way, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction at some point in time and space. So who knows we may be feasting on our other lives corpses in various forms. . . .

I could only hope that in heaven and I do believe in heaven there will be no animals slaughter for people as a food source, no more pointless suffering for anything.
edit on 1-2-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 1 2015 @ 11:56 AM
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originally posted by: framedragged

I don't carefully plan, or supplement my diet with anything other than DHA and the occasional B and Iron vitamin. Things that even some omni's need to supplement. I also take some strength training supplements which many omni's also take. I put both less thought and effort into preparing my food that I used to, while getting a much more complete nutritional profile than I did previously at almost the exact same monetary cost. At the same time, I spend the same amount on food while buying better food.

Further, I even promise that my bloodwork is nice and pretty and shuts my anti-veg doctor down


Ye Gods! 3000 calories in a smoothie, and 45 grams of saturated fat? What was that, a lard and sugar frosting smoothie?



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