Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
People may find the personal life of people like Bill Cosby or the late Bing Crosby repugnant, but does that mean Bill was a bad comedian or Bing a poor singer?

Or even better examples, famous singers have often time been caught lipsynching, does that mean they are bad singers? No. Guilty of poor judgement? Yes. But that is all.

In science credibility is paramount. In entertainment, not so much.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Mastronaut

In the end you can't prove aliens don't exist

Who is saying or trying to prove that? Of course nobody can prove something doesn't exist!

Well I think it went like this:
- Believers is a pejorative therm and researchers in the fields are called believers (and then an example on researchers of dark energy/higgs came up)
- Jade said "believers" are biased in favour of believing UFO are ets so there is a logical leap, while dark matter/higgs researchers are doing legitimate researches and their things have been confirmed
- I said those things (higgs/DE) requires as much faith and as much bias as believers so it can't be used as an argument vs who believes in the existence of ETs and their involvement in UFO and abduction cases
- jade replied misunderstanding me and I replied to him clarifying what I meant
- I edited the post putting an end line that meant "you can only debunk case by case" kinda implying that you can't even analyze every single case
- you quoted me

a reply to: funbox

I suppose checking your jimjams are on the right way round when you get up is a start , but then that would be personal to you and not empirical evidence to present and reproduce to others

Funny you should say that, I have told the story a few times around here but no one seems to see it as it was for us a big thing...when I was 6 and my sister was 4 we slept together always at the same end and in the same positions of our bed as we had for many years.
We lived in the desert "Gerlach Nv." people know the place now but not then in the 60's dead town . One morning my sister and I woke up in the morning and we were at the opposite end of the bed, the covers were not messed up at all and our pillow was under our heads!

We spent the day laughing about how we could have made our way down to the other end without messing any blankets and taking our pillow. I have experienced many things that make me ponder the abduction phenomenon but I have not decided I was an abductee. I have however no choice but to believe there are huge ships though as it has been proven to me personally...another story.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

The Emma Woods story is the first relevant issue you have brought up connected to the OP. On the surface it seems like a case of bad judgement, but I would like to investigate it further.

Real researchers doing real research adhere to a code of conduct. Research is performed under supervision and standards are in place. The point is that had this been actual research, he would have been discredited. That is the standard that the real world goes by. For the totality of his work, he answered to nobody and set his own standards.

Even if it is true,

Oh, its true. I heard all the recordings and how abduction research is performed....hypnosis, over the phone.

Dr. Jacobs has a huge body of work spanning decades, have any other of his cases had this type of questionable judgement associated with it?

yes

I don't think one bad situation negates the totality of his work.

Ok. After listening to the Emma Woods recordings, ask Jacobs to provide the recordings or transcripts of all the other folks he hypnotized. He also conducted hypnosis over instant messenger.

Thing is we don't get to see his work. none of it. We have to take his word for it. I don't and the other people don't have every right not to.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: grainofsand

You can't prove aliens by researching cut up animals...what are you expecting? You sure can prove it wasn't a natural death and wasn't a predator either...which is what has been done many times.

No idea why I even bothered with the prove it to me BS postings. I still wonder why these people troll ATS threads begging for proof or insulting people for their beliefs. People can pray every Sunday to a God with no proof whatsoever and they don't get trolled like this. Honestly, why are you wasting your clearly superior mind reading this thread? Why are you insulting people for what they believe? Why are you demanding proof from a stranger in an internet forum?

So let's get this straight, I posted a comment in direct reply to 'Scdfa' asking for supporting evidence regarding his/her wild claims regarding mutilations (here)
You then replied to me providing two sources which allegedly supported the mutilation/alien claims (here)
I responded with clear reasons why your links/sources did not support aliens/UFO's in any way whatsover (here)
...and now you're whining that I'm a troll, insulting people for what they believe, blah.
If you want to believe then I'm happy for you, but I remain unconvinced, certainly by the 'evidence' you presented to me which I did not ask from you in any case.

a reply to: funbox

I wonder how many abductees have cameras with motion sensors ? still, even if a photo was taken it would be useless,

as well you know.

I'm sure there are many scientific bodies with access to cameras with motion sensors?.....maybe not many "abductees" would be open to allow accredited scientific bodies to investigate their claims.

as well you know

I have always had a real problem believing in alien abduction stories.It's also something Americans seem prone to more than any other nation on earth for some reason. Perhaps there's a clue there?

Back in the old days we had a few odd cases like the Betty and Barney Hill abduction, Travis Walton, Allagash and a few other cases where the 'victims' were allegedly taken from physical locations. There are corroborating witness statements which at least confirm others 'believed' something strange may have occurred.These cases all happened before those little grey beings had become part of the folklore as well.

Then we had "bedroom abductions" . For some reason people could be beamed aboard a craft, but the aliens often felt the need to beam through the walls of the house and stand around the victims bed before taking them elsewhere. The 'aliens' would then supposedly steal genetic material. They'd obviously also stopped off to steal some medical equipment of the time because our own modern technology now surpasses what the aliens were using back in the day. Except for the 'memory wiper' machine which is actually a bit flawed because people do actually remember stuff and hypnotism completely restores their memory.

Here we are in the 21st century when cheap camera technology is available and the reports of alien abduction are somewhat lower.

It's quite simple to set up the equipment for whilst you sleep if you really believe you are being abducted frequently during the night. But do we see many videos of this experience? Are any craft seen by astronomers, observatories, pilots or even the neighbours hovering over abductee's houses? Surely all those people claiming repeat abductions could tip off the Ufologists to stakeout their homes as well?

So how can we debunk something we can't even establish to be a real phenomenon?

The evidence (or lack of it) suggests that most of these 'alien abduction' claims are made by psychologically disturbed people, those prone to fantasy and irrational thinking, attention seekers, persons who have been led along a path by psychologists and hypnotists, and some are simply seeking to reinforce their own beliefs by convincing themselves they have been abducted.

There may of course be something else going on that isn't necessarily aliens.

a reply to: Char-Lee

sounds like you dance on the fringes, did you ever think about regression? but then, where's the plus in knowing?

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Char-Lee

sounds like you dance on the fringes, did you ever think about regression? but then, where's the plus in knowing?

funbox

I have looked at what people who seek to know go through, I think not knowing is better. In other words i would be afraid!

Has anyone wondered whether these little midget aliens, the Greys, who seem to always be so truncated are merely alien children playing games with the lesser advanced humans.

They seem to be the workers and the taller aliens, in the usual alien abduction script, are the ones running the show.


I think it’s a possibility the little guys are alien kids maybe playing house with us.

Its our egos that are telling us: Oh the aliens are infiltrating us and making hybrids and all this might be is alien children having a little fun or learning at our expense

originally posted by: mirageman
I have always had a real problem believing in alien abduction stories.It's also something Americans seem prone to more than any other nation on earth for some reason. Perhaps there's a clue there?

any proof of that? I've read lots of reports from the UK as well as Canada myself.

It's quite simple to set up the equipment for whilst you sleep if you really believe you are being abducted frequently during the night. But do we see many videos of this experience? Are any craft seen by astronomers, observatories, pilots or even the neighbours hovering over abductee's houses? Surely all those people claiming repeat abductions could tip off the Ufologists to stakeout their homes as well?

Abductee's are about as secretive as people with top security clearances. You find that odd and evidence it's fake while I see as perfectly rationale because of the reaction they get whenever someone finds out about the experience. The vast majority know there is nothing they can do to stop it and don't want to know when it happens...thus not wanting to video tape the event. Further motion sensitive camera's and recording equipment aren't exactly in every home...and many are not familiar with setting up something like that. More evidence it's fake for you however because people don't react like you think they should. If you had talked to even ONE PERSON who claims abduction you wouldn't have wrote such a silly statement.

So how can we debunk something we can't even establish to be a real phenomenon?

Clearly there are lots of reports it's happening, so there is some kind of phenomenon...be it alien or crazy hallucinations. How do you investigate something people report? Well, you start by asking questions, then you....you know...investigate. There are people that are already investigating the few reports that are made. If you want to debunk it then you have to check how they investigate it....or investigate it yourself. Sounds like too much work for you, stay at home typing on ATS.

The evidence (or lack of it) suggests ...

Absence of evidence is not evidence in of itself...but I'm sure you know that and just momentarily forgot.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
Real researchers doing real research adhere to a code of conduct. Research is performed under supervision and standards are in place. The point is that had this been actual research, he would have been discredited. That is the standard that the real world goes by. For the totality of his work, he answered to nobody and set his own standards.

How odd that a person, starting to research a whole new subject in a field shunned by scientists, not have supervision! The truth is that Jacobs has CREATED much of the standards for this research field over his years of conducting it. As there wasn't the class hypnosis 401 - abduction investigating for him to take in university.
How odd he have to resort to unconventional techniques of hypnosis with no funding support and people desperate for answers calling him and begging for anything to help them.

Oh, its true. I heard all the recordings and how abduction research is performed....hypnosis, over the phone.

That isn't the case in every case...not even by a long shot. Jacobs has investigated many cases in person. The guy is one person and can't cover an entire country in person!

Thing is we don't get to see his work. none of it. We have to take his word for it. I don't and the other people don't have every right not to.

You should read his book, 'The Threat', as it very clearly details his investigation methods. The guy is incredibly open about how he is going about investigating this difficult topic. The truth is Jacobs has invited many people to take part in many investigations, to help them conduct investigations in other places as well as to be open about what he is doing.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
The lack of consistent, verifiable and unimpeachable hard evidence is a tough nut. (Implants? Really?)

If you want the field of UFOs to be a lot of stories, then fine. Stories galore. But if you want something that I can look at myself and prove that something actually happened, then what do you have to show me?

It's not really even about debunking, because there's nothing to debunk. I can't debunk a dream or a delusion or a made-up story. So what's the point?

I absolutely agree: There's nothing to debunk. Where's the testable evidence proving that extra-terrestrials exists? Where's the testable evidence proving that they've visited earth? Where' the testable evidence proving that people have been abducted? There is none. There are only unsubstantiated claims. The OP presented a long list of unsubstantiated claims made by Jacobs, apparently believing that the length of the list will convince someone to accept the whole as fact. It simply doesn't work that way.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

By the way, underwear is collected by police in cases where it may contain evidence. I don't see why asking for something the police would ask for in an exceptional case is considered inappropriate. In fact it should be considered as carefully trying to find hard evidence...a good thing in investigations I hear.

Of course when trying to discredit the debunkers love to pull out issues that fool people into thinking it's all crazy.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Great thread, planet X, and great post!

I take offense at the term "believer". It's an inaccurate, heavily biased euphemism used primarily by those that would like to deny the reality of alien contact. They refer to anyone who has weighed the evidence, of which a large part is physical, and come to the conclusion that alien visitation is happening as a "believer"....

Let's stop there and examine the testable evidence. Please name said evidence and how it was independently scientifically tested and conclusively proved that extra-terrestrials exist, have visited earth, and have abducted people.