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Debunking Abduction Debunkers

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posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:03 AM
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I just finished watching the sourced video, nothing here is any different then most of presentations like this and although I do not disagree entirely with the speaker it seemed the audience became disinterested during QnA Overall if you r into this thing watch it if you are a hardcorps skeptic all your going to rave about is the last 33 minutes




posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:17 AM
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Debunking debunkers is like a Trace Buster Buster from all of our favorite move The Big Hit.

But really debunkers remind me of the ultimate skeptics, I am just waiting on debunkers and skeptics to debunk themselves with thier own skepticism of thier own skepticism which finally debunks thier existance FTW Lolz.
edit on 10-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:27 AM
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originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Thanks for sharing, very interesting!

Yes, UFO's and abductions go hand-in-hand.

However, and this is nothing against you, I dislike the term "believer/s".

Many on here use it as a pejorative, and it seems to me that is just another example of social conditioning.

Some here have written recently threads on just "believers", in relation to the UFO phenomenon, though whether the social conditioning is intentional or not is hard to say.

Strange phenomenon gets examined and researched, and labeling people who look at the UFO phenomenon as "believers" is about as logical as labeling people who study anything that is not mainstream as "believers"; would we label people who examine the "Higgs Boson" or "Dark energy" as believers? Of course not.





Great thread, planet X, and great post!

I take offense at the term "believer". It's an inaccurate, heavily biased euphemism used primarily by those that would like to deny the reality of alien contact. They refer to anyone who has weighed the evidence, of which a large part is physical, and come to the conclusion that alien visitation is happening as a "believer". As if they had joined a religious sect. They even try to label people with first-hand knowledge that alien contact is a fact as "believers".

"Belief" is for matters of faith. They can save their "belief" for things like Jesus, trickle-down economics, and the Easter Bunny.

The UFO and alien situation does not require belief. Either you are aware it is true, or you are not aware that it is true. It does not require a majority of the population agreeing to make it true, and it does not need a famous scientist to make it true. It is true, and all the disbelief they can muster won't change that.

It's actually the opposite. It is the UFO denier that relies on "belief". They "believe" the government denials, no matter how absurd. Even when the government claims that the alien bodies at Roswell were just test dummies. A check of the facts reveals that that is not possible, as there were no test dummies until six years after Roswell. Yet, the deniers "believe", though to do so is to stand in stark opposition to the facts. Gotta have faith, I guess!

The deniers "believe" a farce like Project Bluebook, even after the chief investigator, J. Allen Hyneck, stated publicly and repeatedly that their mission was to cover-up the truth, and to mislead the public.

Some deniers still "believe" the Condon report, despite the fact that half of the scientist quit after Condon instructed them that there would be no finding for UFOs.

Who is the true "believer" in this issue?

I think it is clear. And it ain't us.
edit on 10-1-2015 by Scdfa because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 01:32 AM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE
Paul Hellyer is NOT credible to anyone in Canada! Huffington Post exposes Hellyer's fake source which he claimed was Snowden, but in reality was garbage.

Are cattle mutilations carried out by aliens? Not according to the man who discovered them. Unless of course, aliens use human gas masks and glowsticks.

I suggest reading Mirage Men and about Air Force psychological operations before concluding aliens.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 01:48 AM
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a reply to: Ridhya




I suggest reading Mirage Men and about Air Force psychological operations before concluding aliens.


Those psychological operations seem to be working on you, Ridhya. The weight of cattle mutilation investigation falls heavily on an unconventional explanation. But, you may be a true believer.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 02:40 AM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

First let me say that I believe it is awfully arrogant for Humans to believe we are alone in this vast universe. Personally I believe God gave up here and moved on to greener pastures and maybe hit the jackpot else where, I certainly have largely given up on Humans, all one needs to do is watch the news each day to know what a sad lot we have "evolved" into.

At the same time I do have an issue with the "evidence" to date of Aliens or the abductions you allude too. You mention social conditioning to prove de-bunkers wrong on the subject of abductions. The same social conditioning could be applied to those who suddenly remember they were abducted, whether through the repressed memories of childhood with the use of hypnosis or other techniques.

Social conditioning could be responsible for those memories through the many movies, books and other stimuli which exist in our modern world today. It always amazes me how often the Aliens look exactly like those we see portrayed in Hollywood, the "greys" with the big dark eyes and spindly hands and fingers, and the big over-sized heads. The "memories" could be a result of the fantasies we call entertainment, and many of the abducted could be accused of simply selling books as well as those who helped generate the memories in the first place.

It wasn't long ago that a whole group of children remembered they had been subjected to Satanic rituals and sex abuse where some people went to jail but we have since learned that those particular stories were just that stories made up by children influenced by well meaning people suggesting the ideas and memories to them.

The powers of suggestion, be it through Hollywood or books or well meaning people can be powerful on minds susceptible to those powers, and we all are susceptible to suggestions or millions and billions of dollars in advertising would be for naught and corporations do not spend money without a chance of recouping it.

Continue to search for evidence but welcome the aid of debunkers as they could very well help you uncover the truth and find that one piece of evidence we need to provide proof. I want to believe, but have a hard time believing someone who wants to charge me in order to hear the story or that memories needed to be dug out of them.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:21 AM
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a reply to: Scdfa
Ill say the same for you. The Air Force has been promoting belief in aliens for decades, and you fell for it.

Despite the lack of any physical proof, you remain a true believer. Ill stick to testable evidence, thank you.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 05:40 AM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

But he never thought of using monitoring or surveilance type cameras? You know the ones without buttons, to switch them off, and maybe placing the camera in unreachable or for the abductee unknown position in the room. Should be easy enough, shouldn't it?

And what makes you so sure that GPS trackers would be damaged or blocked? Has anyone tried to use them actually? I know there are very compact commercially available trackers 2-3 cm size, which could be placed in the body "noninvasively". Although an ankle bracelet should do the job as well, they can be made pretty robust.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 06:18 AM
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originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Thanks for sharing, very interesting!

Yes, UFO's and abductions go hand-in-hand.

However, and this is nothing against you, I dislike the term "believer/s".

Many on here use it as a pejorative, and it seems to me that is just another example of social conditioning.

Some here have written recently threads on just "believers", in relation to the UFO phenomenon, though whether the social conditioning is intentional or not is hard to say.

Strange phenomenon gets examined and researched, and labeling people who look at the UFO phenomenon as "believers" is about as logical as labeling people who study anything that is not mainstream as "believers"; would we label people who examine the "Higgs Boson" or "Dark energy" as believers? Of course not.




The difference here of course is that unlike people who investigate the Higgs Boson (which apparently has been confirmed, guess you missed the news) and Dark Energy, the people who are labelled UFO believers are not merely investigators looking at an unidentified phenomena in an unbiased way.

They usually --believe-- the most logical answer to the UFO phenomena is extraterrestrials flying in structured craft to the tune of generating 5,000 "good" sightings in the US and Canada per year (Richard Dolan's estimate).

They also also have a vested interest and need to believe in that very specific, yet least probable explanation regardless of contrary evidence that's called a "leap of logic".

No one investigating Dark Energy will jump the gun and say Dark Energy is proof of extraterrestrials. No one who looked for the Higgs Boson alleged there was a government coverup which was keeping them from finding it.

See the difference? If you don't then you need to re-examine your logical reasoning skills.
edit on 10-1-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 07:23 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: anarchychaos56

Thanks for sharing, very interesting!

Yes, UFO's and abductions go hand-in-hand.

However, and this is nothing against you, I dislike the term "believer/s".

Many on here use it as a pejorative, and it seems to me that is just another example of social conditioning.

Some here have written recently threads on just "believers", in relation to the UFO phenomenon, though whether the social conditioning is intentional or not is hard to say.

Strange phenomenon gets examined and researched, and labeling people who look at the UFO phenomenon as "believers" is about as logical as labeling people who study anything that is not mainstream as "believers"; would we label people who examine the "Higgs Boson" or "Dark energy" as believers? Of course not.





Great thread, planet X, and great post!

I take offense at the term "believer". It's an inaccurate, heavily biased euphemism used primarily by those that would like to deny the reality of alien contact. They refer to anyone who has weighed the evidence, of which a large part is physical, and come to the conclusion that alien visitation is happening as a "believer". As if they had joined a religious sect. They even try to label people with first-hand knowledge that alien contact is a fact as "believers".

"Belief" is for matters of faith. They can save their "belief" for things like Jesus, trickle-down economics, and the Easter Bunny.

The UFO and alien situation does not require belief. Either you are aware it is true, or you are not aware that it is true. It does not require a majority of the population agreeing to make it true, and it does not need a famous scientist to make it true. It is true, and all the disbelief they can muster won't change that.

It's actually the opposite. It is the UFO denier that relies on "belief". They "believe" the government denials, no matter how absurd. Even when the government claims that the alien bodies at Roswell were just test dummies. A check of the facts reveals that that is not possible, as there were no test dummies until six years after Roswell. Yet, the deniers "believe", though to do so is to stand in stark opposition to the facts. Gotta have faith, I guess!

The deniers "believe" a farce like Project Bluebook, even after the chief investigator, J. Allen Hyneck, stated publicly and repeatedly that their mission was to cover-up the truth, and to mislead the public.

Some deniers still "believe" the Condon report, despite the fact that half of the scientist quit after Condon instructed them that there would be no finding for UFOs.

Who is the true "believer" in this issue?

I think it is clear. And it ain't us.


Great post back to you my friend! Yes, that is a good way of looking at it, the people who believe the government denials are the true "believers". That gave me a laugh, sad but true.

Has the government been caught lying to us over the years about hundreds of issues? Yes, fact.

If this phenomenon were true, do you think they would be capable of lying to us about it? Of course.




edit on 10-1-2015 by PlanetXisHERE because: epiphany



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 07:44 AM
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originally posted by: anarchychaos56
It is the topic of cattle mutilation, as related by Linda Moulton How's. She was awarded an emmy for her documentary, " A Strange Harvest" which aired on msm, back in the 80's


Personally I don't see a link between the cattle mutilation phenomenon and abductions. I see different motivations behind the two. I don't think cattle are being 'genetically manipulated' or 'bred'...they are simply being harvested / tested. The abduction issue goes very deep and through multiple generations in the same family. There is clearly a different goal to it.

Good point to discuss thou



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 07:48 AM
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a reply to: JadeStar

You go on believing what you want to believe, follow the MSM meme. It is tough to break free of the social conditioning, I know it took me over four decades. I have some advice for you, you seem to be emotionally attached to your position, THAT is when bias can influence you. Try to not let your position be part of your identity, your ego will try to do that, it likes to identify with material things and ideas. Thus, when your ideas are challenged the ego will see it as a threat to its survival, and your body will go into fight/flight mode, hormonal overload, and that is not conducive to rational discussion.

The evidence of UFO's being otherworldly is overwhelming, much of it is on ATS. If you choose to ignore it, and again I say, follow the MSM meme, that is your choice, but I'm not going to lay it out here.

You seem to be on some kind of personal quest to convince people that aliens are not visiting and interacting with our planet, why is that? You seem to take it personally that people would be even investigating this. What did you expect to find on ATS? Did you think this would be like the Huff Post science section?

What I will lay out, however, are a slew of publicly available quotes from a slew of well-known people, heads of state, top scientists, top military leaders, all of which would lead a LOGICAL REASONING PERSON to conclude there was something to the phenomenon:


Astronaut Gordon Cooper, wrote a letter addressed to the United Nations in 1978 asking the organisation to set up a research programme to study UFOs. It was in 1951 when the astronaut was driving an F-86 over Germany that he spotted saucers. He later went to space on Mercury 9 in the year 1963 and on the Gemini 5 in ’65.



President Jimmy Carter, US President from 1976 to 1980, promised while on the campaign trail that he would make public all documents on UFOs if elected. He said: "I don't laugh at people any more when they say they've seen UFOs. I've seen one myself."



Senator Barry Goldwater, (1965) tried to gain access to a secret building at Wright-Patterson AFB rumored to house top UFO material, but is refused. "I certainly believe in aliens in space, and that they are indeed visiting our planet. They may not look like us, but I have very strong feelings that they have advanced beyond our mental capabilities."



Walter Cronkite, one of the most trusted reporters and anchorman on TV. In the 1950s, Walter Cronkite was invited to a Pacific island with other reporters to observe an Air Force display of their new missile. As it launched, according to Cronkite, a flying object in the shape of a disc hovered in the sky. The UFO later fired a bluish beam towards the missile but it also hit an Air Force security personnel and his dog. The security guard, the dog, and the missile froze in place after the beam hit them, reports say. The reporters, in shock, were told by a colonel that the Air Force has been working on a new technology and wanted to test how people will react when they see it in action. Cronkite and other reporters were told not to report the incident.



President Harry S. Truman, Truman climbs on board: "I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth"



President John F Kennedy, "The US Airforce assures me that UFO's pose no threat to National Security."



Air Marshall Azim Daudpota, Zimbabwe Air Force "This was no ordinary UFO. Scores of people saw it. It was no illusion, no deception, no imagination."



J Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI from its inception in 1935 to 1972, said of a famous incident when flying saucers were allegedly fired at over Los Angeles in 1942: "We must insist upon full access to disks recovered. For instance, in the LA case the Army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination."



General Nathan Twining, Chairman, Joint chiefs of staff, 1955-1958"The UFO phenomenon being reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious"



Monsignor Corrado Balducci, a Vatican theologian, said: "Extraterrestrial contact is a real phenomenon. The Vatican is receiving much information about extraterrestrials and their contacts with humans from its embassies in various countries, such as Mexico, Chile and Venezuela."



Professor Stephen Hawking,: "Of course it is possible that UFO's really do contain aliens as many people believe, and the Government is hushing it up."



Professor Michio Kaku My own thoughts include, what if "they" aren't (all) from another planet? Even today we have people living at fairly advanced levels, technology-wise, while others remain in the Brazilian rainforest in the Stone Age, seemingly oblivious to our existence. Perhaps they've been here for a very long time, and we ourselves are almost oblivious to their existence?



Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director, (NASA) "I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. Another words we are being watched by beings from outer space.



Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, (Former director of the Central Intelligence Agency)"Unknown objects are operating under intelligent control... It is imperative that we learn where UFOs come from and what their purpose is. I can tell you, behind the scenes, high ranking military officers are soberly concerned about the UFOs"


You can find more quotes here:

Link


edit on 10-1-2015 by PlanetXisHERE because: addition



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:03 AM
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originally posted by: Ridhya
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE
Paul Hellyer is NOT credible to anyone in Canada! Huffington Post exposes Hellyer's fake source which he claimed was Snowden, but in reality was garbage.


Really? Paul Hellyer was made Defence Minister of a G-7 and NATO member and was not credible? He was made Deputy Prime Minister of Canada and was not credible? Or he just became not credible to some when he started to uncover and expose the truth about the ET interaction with earth? It's funny how that works. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.




Are cattle mutilations carried out by aliens? Not according to the man who discovered them. Unless of course, aliens use human gas masks and glowsticks.


You believe the disinfo that the government was responsible for cattle mutilations? Why is the phenomenon worldwide? You think the government is travelling to other countries to do this as well..........with all the legal and international ramifications...........for what?




I suggest reading Mirage Men and about Air Force psychological operations before concluding aliens.


Yes, I do believe the Air Force and many arms of the government are capable of disinformation. However, many UFO sightings pre-date the Air Force or even manned flight, so Miragemen proves zilch.


edit on 10-1-2015 by PlanetXisHERE because: addition



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:44 AM
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If you stop and think about it logically for a bit, you find that if Extraterrestrial life is real, AND we are being visited regularly and abducted, we as a species are SCREWED! It would mean that an advanced group has free reign to do whatever they like with us and out planet. And out leaders could do nothing but beg for mercy.

That's not to say it's impossible, just really unlikely. So far, all my evidence for UFO's fits into a "it's our own technology" basket. I'd love to be wrong, but would also be a bit nervous.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: network dude
If you stop and think about it logically for a bit, you find that if Extraterrestrial life is real, AND we are being visited regularly and abducted, we as a species are SCREWED! It would mean that an advanced group has free reign to do whatever they like with us and out planet. And out leaders could do nothing but beg for mercy.


Yes, I concur. I believe that in itself is excellent motivation to cover it up.




That's not to say it's impossible, just really unlikely. So far, all my evidence for UFO's fits into a "it's our own technology" basket. I'd love to be wrong, but would also be a bit nervous.


Sure, I'm on the flip-side of your opinion, I'm not saying its 100% certain, but I believe it worthy of investigation. Another question I have is this, what if there are no aliens, but just another advanced race living in secret on the earth? I concede this could also be a possibility.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 09:21 AM
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Dr. Jacobs says we are left with one of two alternatives:

1. If the abductions are not happening, then this is the most interesting psychological phenomenon ever encountered – yet no one in psychological academia is willing to study it.

2. Abductions are happening, and the governments of the world cannot stop them, thus would like to cover up the whole phenomenon.


Thanks for the summation in your opening post, it really helps to get a handle on the presentation then skip to the conclusion, which is what I typically prefer.

As for the statement that a person experiencing abductions must be a believer in the first place for these experiences to manifest, I ask - How would any of you explain a child of the mid-60s, with absolutely no exposure or TV influences relating to the Greys, experience contact with them at that time and thereafter, as well as finding a perfectly symmetrical, clean scoop mark in the region of the ankle?

As was mentioned by the doctor, most of us abductees and/or contactees don't want this extraterrestrial attention. So, if it is psychological in nature, then why can't or won't the government endow grants for further studying of this phenomena is a question that we should be looking at. I am sure there are more scientists like Dr. Jacobs who would jump at the opportunity, that is, with proper funding.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: JadeStar

You go on believing what you want to believe, follow the MSM meme. It is tough to break free of the social conditioning, I know it took me over four decades. I have some advice for you, you seem to be emotionally attached to your position, THAT is when bias can influence you. Try to not let your position be part of your identity, your ego will try to do that, it likes to identify with material things and ideas. Thus, when your ideas are challenged the ego will see it as a threat to its survival, and your body will go into fight/flight mode, hormonal overload, and that is not conducive to rational discussion.


Hormonal overload? Fight or flight? It sounds like you're projecting here. When have I ever been "hysterical" in these forums? I typically offer well reasoned rational debate but I have never taken it personal nor brought your or anyone elses hormones into question. Seems kinda sexist just sayin'.

Sorry I'm not a spiritualist nor a believer in the supernatural so your whole thing about "material things" is kind of silly to me. They are not "material things" they are things which are proven to exist.



The evidence of UFO's being otherworldly is overwhelming, much of it is on ATS. If you choose to ignore it, and again I say, follow the MSM meme, that is your choice, but I'm not going to lay it out here.


Really? Where are all the networks of amateur astronomers who are photographing objects entering and leaving the Earth's atmosphere?

These people watch the skies more than the most ardent Alien Spacecraft believers yet they don't seem to collect your 'overwhelming evidence' in the form of photos or video.

Networks of automated meteor cameras are set up worldwide to track and record anything that moves in the sky yet they don't seem to pick up anything resembling common descriptions of highly strange UFOs.

So where is this 'overwhelming evidence' you speak of?

All I've seen are stories, opinions and misidentifications of common stuff anyone familiar with the sky wouldn't look twice at.



You seem to be on some kind of personal quest to convince people that aliens are not visiting and interacting with our planet, why is that?


Personal quest? Again, it seems you've got it wrong. I don't really care what religion someone is and likewise I don't care if someone chooses to side with the cult of UFOs as evidence of ET believers I don't have a problem with that.



You seem to take it personally that people would be even investigating this.


I question their methods but I have no problem with investigation. I'm here because I think there should be MORE -scientifically based- investigation of the phenomena as per Peter Sturrock's recommendations.

Have you read the Sturrock Report entitled: Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports?

Seriously, have you read it?

If not, and if you have a short attention span you can skip to Chapters 6 and 7 to know why I am here.

Just because I don't accept flimsy evidence and storytelling sessions as proof of what would be the greatest discovery in the history of greatest discoveries doesn't mean I have anything against the possibility that something or someone could visit the Earth.

I just don't think anything has really proven the extraterrestrial hypothesis as the best explanation for why people sometimes see things they can not identify.

And I've seen a lot of talk, conventions, book signings, TV shows, and merchandise in the UFO field but seen precious little in the way of proposals of experiments to TEST THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL HYPOTHESIS.



What did you expect to find on ATS?'


Critical thinking, sharp reasoning and logical debate. Denying Ignorance?

What were YOU expecting from ATS? This?




Did you think this would be like the Huff Post science section?


Why are you attacking me? Why are you attacking science? What is your gripe?

Don't like the (null) data, attack the messenger?

There's too much of that nonsense in your field. Which is why it struggles for credibility.

Do you NOT understand that UFO simply means "Unidentified Flying Object" it does not necessarily mean spaceships from beyond the Earth nor does the term "flying disc" so about half of those quotes you mentioned have little to do with your contention.

Don't believe everything you read on the internets. Things are often manipulated or taken out of context.
edit on 10-1-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
Another question I have is this, what if there are no aliens, but just another advanced race living in secret on the earth? I concede this could also be a possibility.

My guess is if that was true, they would be living in the oceans. (which coincides with a lot of USO sightings.)

If we can ever figure out how to communicate with Dolphins and Whales, we might find out all sorts of amazing things. I think they might be a good bit smarter than us. (just lack opposable thumbs)

What if, instead of the government covering up the fact that they are here, they are covering up the fact that they can do nothing about it. (it would scare the hell out of me if I found out they were as inept as I believe they are.)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:46 AM
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originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
More like, Hellyer was discredited when he lied. He did not get information about aliens from Edward Snowdens documents, it was an outright deception.

What do you mean I cant have it both ways? I never said he was credible to begin with. Having a high position in government doesnt make one credible, or smart, or even nice.

I dont think the government is travelling to other countries, I know they are. Or did that U2 not get shot down over Russia.

You're of the mindset, "I dont trust government employees, unless they agree with me"
edit on 10-1-2015 by Ridhya because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 10:51 AM
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Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?




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