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Debunking Abduction Debunkers

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posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:01 AM
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originally posted by: amazing
Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?



Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.




posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:24 AM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: amazing
Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?



Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.



People is suffering post traumatic effects, they reach a point when they need to approach a professional to deal with it. Of course you could argue this is all mental, not an external phenomena. But if you take some time into digging on the diverse cases, you will find out several corroborating facts that point to a real, external, physical influence. Heck, this has been covered by people like Jacobs several times. Do we choose to ignore it just... why exactly?



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: JackHill
For one thing, trauma doesnt have to come from a 'real' source - it just has to be perceived as real. Some people have been traumatised just from hearing stories of others, imagination takes care of the rest. When I was little, I was terrified of dinosaurs walking down my street, I heard them. But now im at least 75% sure that was due to Jurassic Park


Trauma can also be artificially ingrained into people. This has been known with certainty since at least the 1800s, and I greatly suspect it has been practiced in secret since many centuries before then:


For the record, I do believe that many 'abduction' cases are real. Psychological warfare tests, using hallucinogenic drugs, electromagnetic fields, and abusive conditioning (deliberate traumatisation) to test effects on subjects. Unethical studies are not avoided, they are just done under cover



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 11:49 AM
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a reply to: JadeStar

ahh, but are millions of people reporting encounters of angels and zombies , big difference there.

was interesting to hear the percentages in the video

2% isn't a bad average for people having recall, cant get it right everytime

shame the rest of the 98% have no idea


runBox


edit on 10-1-2015 by funbox because: hearing wolves, seeing shadows in the corner of the room



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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There are three major problems with 'Alien Abduction' reports.

1. There are simply too many of them. Millions of reports per year for many years.
2. The people are often put right back where they were taken from. I can't believe that an actual abduction event wouldn't just drop them off anywhere not back in their bed, re-dressed.
3. Too many hoaxers. You are never going to be able to separate real reports from fakes, so you don't know if the theories you're proposing are for real or fake abductions.

I think some of the most famous ones were US military Psy-ops.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:34 PM
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a reply to: Maverick7

1. like the video man said , if the psychiatric institutions would pay close attention, (which is odd in itself *controlled?*) many hands would make light work.

2.interesting, can you see through the Alien mind? that would make you alien wouldn't it ? @D Welcome to earth!

3. a good psychologist would make the differentia .

more than likely , but for what purpose? and millions?

funbox



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

1. If the abductions are not happening, then this is the most interesting psychological phenomenon ever encountered – yet no one in psychological academia is willing to study it.


John Mack?

In a recent podcast episode of Skeptiko, Dr David Jacobs is quoted as saying:

"This is not consciousness-raising; this is like consciousness denying. This is consciousness-lowering in a sense. So I don’t have any stake in this. It would be wonderful if it is. I think that John Mack was just dead wrong in his analysis of this. In fact, he tried and tried and tried to ram the abduction phenomenon into his preconceived ideas about consciousness and never could. Most people don’t realize that he gave up. He said, “That’s it. I don’t want to do it anymore,” because it could never conform to his ideas. Two years before he died he stopped doing abduction research altogether, closed up his peer group at Harvard, and told Budd Hopkins that maybe he’d been a little too gullible in this situation of abductions. He could never fit it into what he wanted it to be."
www.skeptiko-forum.com...


Abductions can be reproduced in a laboratory, by taking drugs and by other means. In fact, it has been studied and there are plenty of ways to explain it. What cant be explained is why so many people believe this stuff without question.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: Maverick7

Read up on Sleeper, or his real name, Lou Baldin and his site. He goes into depth on this, loads of information and am very drawn to what he has to say, as an experiencer. Some of it matches mine.

The problem isn't that there are millions. Everyone has been processed, most don't remember. This is a simulation holographic testing ground school. Its a test. Some might say prison for some, school, playpen, doesn't matter, for no matter what you're here for, the way off is the same, Love, overcoming Flaws and Violence, war and starvation and inequality and lack of freedoms, selfishness. Being a good kind person. That is what it takes.

But, we don't come in alone, we don't come in without a Team checking up on us, and if we haven't been good boys and girls, then the various frequency levels of ETs also gain access. So alot of people have various types of experiences, from the negative pirates to their Families, in addition to any military stuff going on.

Everyone, if they did some regression and seeking would find there are memories that could be accessed.


And I want to add this: Belief isn't a prerequisite! Skeptics included.

So as one fellow experiencer I am giving all of you a huge warm welcome, for I know we've met in our travels, perhaps some of them weren't our favorite experiences to share. Greetings, you're all on the list.
edit on 10-1-2015 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

I believe in abductions.

I just don’t understand why they don’t abduct, the Taliban, other Jihadists extremists, George Bush and Cheney, Mexican drug dealers, child molesters, and other miscreants.

Then just drop em off into space…

Forgive me for bringing politics to the UFO forum, but I couldn’t resist.

I have read Jacobs book and it is very good
...and scary
thanks for the link!
edit on 10-1-2015 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 01:49 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
The weight of cattle mutilation investigation falls heavily on an unconventional explanation. But, you may be a true believer.
I would be interested in reading any published study you are aware of, or perhaps a report by a veterinary surgeon, which supports your assertion that the mutilations are unlikely to have been carried out by humans.
Until or unless you are able to provide such a source I shall remain unconvinced.
Oh and if you come out with the tired old lines "do your own research" or "I'm not doing your research for you", as I expect you to, I shall assume you have nothing more than access to the same internet search engines as myself, but you are a believer while I remain unconvinced.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:14 PM
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originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: amazing
Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?



Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.



People is suffering post traumatic effects, they reach a point when they need to approach a professional to deal with it. Of course you could argue this is all mental, not an external phenomena. But if you take some time into digging on the diverse cases, you will find out several corroborating facts that point to a real, external, physical influence. Heck, this has been covered by people like Jacobs several times. Do we choose to ignore it just... why exactly?


You mean the same Jacobs that planted false memories in Emma Woods?

where is my chastity belt? LOL.

How is it David Jacobs has -any- credibility in UFO circles after that? People still name drop him as if he were some credible scientist rather than a charlatan who uses hypnosis to plant false memories which he can later 'retrieve' to sell more books, lecture more wide-eyed people at UFO conventions etc.
edit on 10-1-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:24 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: amazing
Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?



Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.



But that misses the point. I believe in God, but have never reported a sighting of him. He's never spoken to me.

It's one thing to believe in something and state that you believe it. It's quite another to say that you've had a personal encounter...a physical encounter of some sort. Especially with the climate of ridicule about this subject. If I openly say I believe in abductions or I believe in God, no big deal. But if I openly say, God just spoke to me or I was abducted, then I'm ridiculed and more. It's a weird phenomenon that requires more study, if we're being honest with ourselves and not trying to be funny with Zombie comments.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:30 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

The difference here of course is that unlike people who investigate the Higgs Boson (which apparently has been confirmed, guess you missed the news) and Dark Energy, the people who are labelled UFO believers are not merely investigators looking at an unidentified phenomena in an unbiased way.

They usually --believe-- the most logical answer to the UFO phenomena is extraterrestrials flying in structured craft to the tune of generating 5,000 "good" sightings in the US and Canada per year (Richard Dolan's estimate).

They also also have a vested interest and need to believe in that very specific, yet least probable explanation regardless of contrary evidence that's called a "leap of logic".

No one investigating Dark Energy will jump the gun and say Dark Energy is proof of extraterrestrials. No one who looked for the Higgs Boson alleged there was a government coverup which was keeping them from finding it.

See the difference? If you don't then you need to re-examine your logical reasoning skills.


So, you believe that imaginary mathematical particles and mechanisms ARE true AND confirmed. You know what they do have detectors for? PHOTONS. You know photons aren't even particles in the strict sense having no wavefunction?

Maybe you should think about the imaginary things you believe in and be a little less arrogant about others beliefs especially when you can't prove them wrong, as in the case of aliens. The best you can do is saying there is no consensum on the subject, but there isn't any single way you can prove aliens weren't, aren't and will not be here.

Also you should try to understand that "discoveries" of those things throughout the history of physics has just been a way to fix problems with a theory, always inferred by proxy and processed statistical data and cannot be proven in a strict scientifical sense.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Hmmm.....you tell us that the Government/MSM/PTB all lie to us regarding the UFO/alien phenomenon......then post a load of quotes from members of the Government/MSM/PTB to back up claims of evidence of the UFO/alien phenomenon.


Strange



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: amazing
Great thread...and brings up the most important point, if you firmly don't believe in Abductions. Why are millions of people reporting them and what are the psychological implications of that?



Millions of people in America also believe in Angels and Zombies.



But that misses the point. I believe in God, but have never reported a sighting of him. He's never spoken to me.

It's one thing to believe in something and state that you believe it. It's quite another to say that you've had a personal encounter...a physical encounter of some sort. Especially with the climate of ridicule about this subject. If I openly say I believe in abductions or I believe in God, no big deal. But if I openly say, God just spoke to me or I was abducted, then I'm ridiculed and more. It's a weird phenomenon that requires more study, if we're being honest with ourselves and not trying to be funny with Zombie comments.


Well that's just it.

I do not think anyone has a problem with those who believe they have seen something they can not identify or even been abducted. It's when people assert it means there is a grand conspiracy to cover up space brothers from the Pleiades who have all the answer that people start to think you're a little cray cray.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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originally posted by: Argyll
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Hmmm.....you tell us that the Government/MSM/PTB all lie to us regarding the UFO/alien phenomenon......then post a load of quotes from members of the Government/MSM/PTB to back up claims of evidence of the UFO/alien phenomenon.


Strange


Exactly. Its funny to see how people who are supposedly distrustful of the powers-that-be willingly fall in line when they are fed something which validates their beliefs.

Of course the government would never have a reason to use UFO stories to cover up things like classified aircraft, spacecraft and other activities would they?



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:51 PM
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As usual, another interesting thread devolves into evidence / no evidence arguments. I wonder how many have really looked into Dr. Jacobs work on abductions.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:51 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

I would have thought it would be a necessity, to cover this up/ridicule/bury .the governments inability to protect the populace! imagine the chaos that would ensue

funbox


edit on 10-1-2015 by funbox because: grammer wolves



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: Argyll
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Hmmm.....you tell us that the Government/MSM/PTB all lie to us regarding the UFO/alien phenomenon......then post a load of quotes from members of the Government/MSM/PTB to back up claims of evidence of the UFO/alien phenomenon.


Strange


That is a good point. But first, these are not quotes you see bandied about in the MSM, you have to dig to find them. It works both ways, the MSM promotes memes it wants us to buy into, and suppresses those that come out that it would like to keep suppressed. Also, when people speak of the "Powers That Be", no one anymore really thinks that refers to people in public, including Presidents. Bill Clinton had a famous quote about the secret government "There is a secret government inside the government, and I don't control it", even Kennedy spoke about the secret government.

The fact remains many famous people have made statements confirming the existence of UFO's and aliens, if you insist on ignoring that and anything that contradicts your position, it doesn't matter what evidence I present, your mind is closed.



posted on Jan, 10 2015 @ 04:05 PM
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originally posted by: Mastronaut
So, you believe that imaginary mathematical particles and mechanisms ARE true AND confirmed. You know what they do have detectors for? PHOTONS. You know photons aren't even particles in the strict sense having no wavefunction?

Maybe you should think about the imaginary things you believe in


Photons are not imaginary, they are confirmed and their properties are fairly well understood. They also have told us a ton about the world and universe we inhabit.

No one has to BELIEVE in photons. You or I can measure them, count them, move them along, etc.

And more to the point, the value of studying photons allow us to learn something new. Other than learning about how impressionable people can be under hypnosis to things like false memory syndrome I fail to see what 40 years of abduction research has taught us.

So perhaps before you profess to know about photons (which you clearly don't) crack open a book. It will make you kinda look informed on the subject. I suspect I know a lot more about UFO research and the history of it than you know about advanced physics or astronomy.
edit on 10-1-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



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