Debunking Abduction Debunkers

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

The fact remains many famous people have made statements confirming the existence of UFO's and aliens, if you insist on ignoring that and anything that contradicts your position, it doesn't matter what evidence I present, your mind is closed.

Yes.....and many famous people have made statements that deny any firm evidence of UFO's and aliens, yet you insist on ignoring them, unless said famous people make statements that reinforce your position then you suddenly believe them!

My mind is no more closed than yours is, in fact I would go as far to say that my mind is more open than yours as I am fully prepared to accept the premise of alien visitation if I see irrefutable evidence, you on the other hand do not appear to prepared to admit that you may be chasing shadows!

originally posted by: grainofsand
I would be interested in reading any published study you are aware of, or perhaps a report by a veterinary surgeon, which supports your assertion that the mutilations are unlikely to have been carried out by humans.
Until or unless you are able to provide such a source I shall remain unconvinced.
Oh and if you come out with the tired old lines "do your own research" or "I'm not doing your research for you", as I expect you to, I shall assume you have nothing more than access to the same internet search engines as myself, but you are a believer while I remain unconvinced.

Oh you mean this exhaustive study by the National Institute for Discovery Science?
rense.com...
Found that unknown actors were conducting sampling.

Or the multiple vets in several of the following investigations...
'http://www.mufon.com/animal-mutilations/missouri-farmer-finds-third-cow-with-bizarrely-mutilated-genitals-and-missing-organsand-she-wont-rule-out-ali ens-as-the-culprit'


Sorry for the long reading material...I know it's hard for people that need information served up on a plate and spoon fed to them. One day you'll stumble on this magical site called Google...

a reply to: Argyll

can you name a scientific method that would capture this evidence ?

from most accounts, it looks like these visitors have an uncanny control over existence and reality, how would you measure such a thing if the protagonists preferred a more subtle approach with a tinge of secrecy sprinkled on top

so where do you begin to find the evidence you seek?
I suppose checking your jimjams are on the right way round when you get up is a start , but then that would be personal to you and not empirical evidence to present and reproduce to others

funbox

a reply to: JadeStar

Dr. Jacobs has said even though the majority of cases he has investigated have been through hypnosis, which use is quite widespread now, especially for cases of childhood trauma and abuse, but of course far from infallible; anyway, some of his cases did not involve hypnosis and were direct recollections.

The Emma Woods story is the first relevant issue you have brought up connected to the OP. On the surface it seems like a case of bad judgement, but I would like to investigate it further. Even if it is true, Dr. Jacobs has a huge body of work spanning decades, have any other of his cases had this type of questionable judgement associated with it? I don't think one bad situation negates the totality of his work.

People may find the personal life of people like Bill Cosby or the late Bing Crosby repugnant, but does that mean Bill was a bad comedian or Bing a poor singer?

Or even better examples, famous singers have often time been caught lipsynching, does that mean they are bad singers? No. Guilty of poor judgement? Yes. But that is all.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
As usual, another interesting thread devolves into evidence / no evidence arguments. I wonder how many have really looked into Dr. Jacobs work on abductions.

David Jacobs is a fraud so why bother?

web.archive.org...:/www.ufoalienabductee.com/hypnosis/information-hypnosis-david-jacobs.html

a reply to: JadeStar

your links broken, can you type it from memory please

funbox

a reply to: noeltrotsky

I wonder how many have really looked into Dr. Jacobs work on abductions.

Oh I did a few years back but I got side tracked by his requests for soiled panties...you know, in his quest for alien DNA. Of course the person was under hypnosis and it was a session conducted over the phone so it was totally legit because he was a history professor for Temple.

My guess is that not many here have actually looked into anything at all about him. If they did and still think this guy is a legitimate researcher, I am at a loss.

Having my own event with supposed 3 foot tall Grey ET's I can say there was absolutely no evidence of it happening unless you witnessed it. I was never taken to their "ship" nor did I ever see it in the night sky.

I was minding my own business in my backyard late at night when I felt the presence of something, like an animal crossing through the yard. So I get up to look around the yard and thats when a sudden change happened. I started receiving telepathic communications from Grey Aliens whom I could see were in my backyard, but they were covered by black shadows. There were some against the fence and some by the tree, and they were sending me mental images of what they looked like and they were just saying, "Hi we're here, there is 12 of us. We are 3 foot tall Grey Aliens with smooth skin." I would describe their skin color to look like moon-light, and that above message is all they said.

I just stood there shocked. Having had ghostly encounters in my past, I knew for a fact this was not ghostly. It absolutely did not feel ghostly at all. It was terrifying but very intriguing at the same time. I kept thinking this is the moment of truth and one of these Greys is going to walk out of their shadows, and into the light were I was standing. I also strongly felt that if I walked towards the shadows I would die of fear. So I stood there, and nothing was happening.

So I ran inside and went into my room. I hid under the covers for about 10 minutes and then built up the courage and confidence to go back outside and inspect the scene as an adult, you know not to believe in such things. So I grab a flashlight and go back outside. Lo and behold, there was nothing out there and the strange feeling was gone.

The next morning I looked around outside where the shadows were, and there was no foot prints or anything of physical evidence.

So I either had an actual encounter with Grey Aliens or I had a once in my lifetime brief moment of these serious medical conditions that debunkers claim abductees have.

I never had the experience of being onboard a ship, medical exams, scars, markings, loss of time, nightmares, etc...Or multiple encounters. IMO, these are factors that I consider for the validity of my encounter, or maybe claims that I have heard over the years.

Receiving telepathic communication was mind blowing. For a few days after I had the pleasant experience of being able to relive and feel that part of my brain that was channeling the telepathy. It's really a remarkable feeling, and it was pretty cool to feel it in your head, but 3 days after the feeling of the memory was gone. I would describe it like a muscle that you loose the feeling to, like you're paralyzed. Basically our telepathy muscle is paralyzed, and the Greys somehow are able to heal this muscle and they can un-paralyze it. Then they start communicating with you. I woke up the next day and could still feel that part of my brain, it was still active, and I could relive the memory of telepathy really well. However it slowly depleted. After 3 days I could not feel that part of my brain anymore.

I don't know why they never returned or maybe if they do abduct me or have in the past, I was heavily subdued, and have no memory whatsoever. I also feel maybe the Greys don't like bravery or anticipation. However in conclusion I have no idea what I experienced, or what others have experienced. Can we write it all off as a medical condition? I don't know.

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: JadeStar

your links broken, can you type it from memory please

funbox

ATS doesn't seem to know what to do with long links from archive.org or allow me to shorten the link.

a reply to: funbox

can you name a scientific method that would capture this evidence ?

Very difficult these days, virtually all forms of media are capable of being faked.....interesting thought though, if tomorrow the Government, the MSM all led with stories confirming evidence of contact with alien visitors....how many people would believe them?

I'm guessing most of the people here on ATS who have previously called them liars would suddenly become believers.

a reply to: JadeStar

unless you want to type it out or just paste the bit without the http , leave all the rest , it should work then with a little extra work from the user

funbox

a reply to: Argyll

many I expect, but the msm are not anything scientific /or a methodology to achieve scientific result/conclusion
you would not be happy with this

but for an experiment, how could a setup be achieved , obviously no lab would be involved , so some sort of field kit would be needed ... any ideas?

I do appreciate your point in using the msm as a crux for one thing and damnation for the other

but im not interested in what they have to say....to add

if they did have a disclosure , it would shine a spotlight onto everything alien/ufo related that's gone before.. what kind of suspicion and mistrust would be in many peoples minds when they investigate the abduction phenomena?.. no good thoughts ill warrant

already at the point and after disclosure there are fractures


funbox

a reply to: game over man
That was a very interesting account.

Can we write it all off as a medical condition? I don't know.

I am certain that everything you described could have been produced by your own mind. I am also certain that the last thing you would want to do is go to an alien researcher and have them "recover" your memories under hypnosis. I wouldn't even consider going to one of them. Its your experience and it is really up to you what to make of it. If you are concerned about medical conditions, talk to your doctor, not the history professor at the local university doing alien research.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
Oh you mean this exhaustive study by the National Institute for Discovery Science?
rense.com...
Found that unknown actors were conducting sampling.

Is that the best you've got? The (disbanded) National Institute for Discovery Science Lol...and in any case the story in your link says nothing about aliens, I remain unconvinced but happy for you to be a believer if that's enough for you to believe.

Or the multiple vets in several of the following investigations...
'http://www.mufon.com/animal-mutilations/missouri-farmer-finds-third-cow-with-bizarrely-mutilated-genitals-and-missing-organsand-she-wont-rule-out-al iens-as-the-culprit'

Have you actually read that article? Nowhere in it does any vet suggest mutilations were by aliens or anything else. They say the cuts were surgical precision, big wow there, not.

See it's examples such as that which make UFO believers look silly.
Oh, and I'm more than aware of Google thank you, I used it to find your story and fix your link: Missouri mutilations baffle ranchers, investigators

...perhaps actually consider the words of the articles you post before you attempt spinning them into evidence supporting claims of aliens.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Mastronaut
So, you believe that imaginary mathematical particles and mechanisms ARE true AND confirmed. You know what they do have detectors for? PHOTONS. You know photons aren't even particles in the strict sense having no wavefunction?

Maybe you should think about the imaginary things you believe in

Photons are not imaginary, they are confirmed and their properties are fairly well understood. They also have told us a ton about the world and universe we inhabit.

No one has to BELIEVE in photons. You or I can measure them, count them, move them along, etc.

And more to the point, the value of studying photons allow us to learn something new. Other than learning about how impressionable people can be under hypnosis to things like false memory syndrome I fail to see what 40 years of abduction research has taught us.

So perhaps before you profess to know about photons (which you clearly don't) crack open a book. It will make you kinda look informed on the subject. I suspect I know a lot more about UFO research and the history of it than you know about advanced physics or astronomy.

You misunderstood me, might be my bad english, or it was a clever way to turn the argument in your favour (jk . The photons are the only thing measured, Higgs boson and every other particles outside of protons and electrons and their antimatter particles are the imaginary ones. By quantum mechanics even those 4 are measured by photons (virtual photons) when you use magnetism or even simple bubble/cloud chambers (since collision happens because of charge and charge is an exchange of virtual photons).

(EDIT: in fact even protons and electrons may be imaginary, what we know are the mass to charge ratio and the negative/positive quantity, but we digress too much)

What I was saying is that you used dark matter and higgs as a proof of something that has some undeniable evidence (contrary to alien existence), while they are only part of a mathematical construct and in no way, not even for those who study advanced physics, there is a need for them to exist in order to be "useful".

In the end you can't prove aliens don't exist, however you can prove most UFO cases aren't ETs stuff.

a reply to: funbox

but for an experiment, how could a setup be achieved , obviously no lab would be involved , so some sort of field kit would be needed ... any ideas?

Considering many abductee's claim to be abducted on a regular basis, surely a simple camera set up would suffice?

However I have a feeling that when the camera showed nothing at all the abductee would no doubt claim that the aliens somehow disabled it

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: game over man
That was a very interesting account.

Can we write it all off as a medical condition? I don't know.

I am certain that everything you described could have been produced by your own mind. I am also certain that the last thing you would want to do is go to an alien researcher and have them "recover" your memories under hypnosis. I wouldn't even consider going to one of them. Its your experience and it is really up to you what to make of it. If you are concerned about medical conditions, talk to your doctor, not the history professor at the local university doing alien research.

I absolutely agree everything I encountered could have been produced by my own mind, however this mind behavior is not normal behavior for me. I would feel people with these conditions or diagnosis by doctors/professionals, might be born with, or have had these conditions for years. So I just randomly had the abductee medical conditions for 20 minutes late one summer night? I don't know. I can't say that I had whatever debunkers want to diagnose me with or that I had an actual encounter.

Yes agree going to an alien researcher would be a waste of time, but who knows, might be pretty fun too! I think you mis-read my post, I don't have any medical conditions related to the abduction phenomenon. My point being that debunkers claim the phenomenon is actually a number of medical conditions the person is experiencing. I don't have those medical conditions. So I just randomly and spontaneously had these medical conditions suddenly? It's either that, or I had an actual encounter.

a reply to: Mastronaut

In the end you can't prove aliens don't exist

Who is saying or trying to prove that? Of course nobody can prove something doesn't exist!

a reply to: game over man
I have had a few odd experiences but I never have seen beings while awake. Mine were due to sleep paralysis and migraines.....and some funky good times during my youth.

My point being that debunkers claim the phenomenon is actually a number of medical conditions the person is experiencing. I don't have those medical conditions. So I just randomly and spontaneously had these medical conditions suddenly? It's either that, or I had an actual encounter.

Anomalous experiences, such as so-called benign hallucinations, may occur in a person in a state of good mental and physical health, even in the apparent absence of a transient trigger factor such as fatigue, intoxication or sensory deprivation.

It is now widely recognized that hallucinatory experiences are not merely the prerogative of those suffering from mental illness, or normal people in abnormal states, but that they occur spontaneously in a significant proportion of the normal population, when in good health and not undergoing particular stress or other abnormal circumstance.

The evidence for this statement has been accumulating for more than a century. Studies of benign hallucinatory experiences go back to 1886 and the early work of the Society for Psychical Research,[1][2] which suggested approximately 10% of the population had experienced at least one hallucinatory episode in the course of their life. More recent studies have validated these findings; the precise incidence found varies with the nature of the episode and the criteria of ‘hallucination’ adopted, but the basic finding is now well-supported.[3]

Apparitional experiences

A common type of anomalous experience is the apparitional experience, which may be defined as one in which a subject seems to perceive some person or thing that is not physically present. Self-selected samples tend to report a predominance of human figures, but apparitions of animals,[4] and even objects[5] are also reported. Notably, the majority of the human figures reported in such samples are not recognised by the subject, and of those who are, not all are of deceased persons; apparitions of living persons have also been reported
en.wikipedia.org...

Hope that helps?

a reply to: Argyll

I wonder how many abductees have cameras with motion sensors ? still, even if a photo was taken it would be useless,

as well you know.

funbox

a reply to: grainofsand

You can't prove aliens by researching cut up animals...what are you expecting? You sure can prove it wasn't a natural death and wasn't a predator either...which is what has been done many times.

No idea why I even bothered with the prove it to me BS postings. I still wonder why these people troll ATS threads begging for proof or insulting people for their beliefs. People can pray every Sunday to a God with no proof whatsoever and they don't get trolled like this. Honestly, why are you wasting your clearly superior mind reading this thread? Why are you insulting people for what they believe? Why are you demanding proof from a stranger in an internet forum?