Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Just leave the real monotheism to Jews and Muslims and get rid of your infatuation with a perfectly monotheistic people who consider christianity as perverse paganism and curse Jesus as a false prophet.

I didn't know that Muslims admit that they don't believe in Jesus and see him as a false prophet, very interesting.

a reply to: arpgme

I didn't know that Muslims admit that they don't believe in Jesus and see him as a false prophet, very interesting.

He was talking about what Jews think about Christianity.

a reply to: arpgme
Jesus accompanied with the Son of Man will return.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

. . . open his mind to what Jesus was actually saying...

So far, you are just quoting the verses.
I looked at them when you first mentioned them.
Can you like walk me through the thought process involved with going from the text, to your conclusion?

pardon the late reply...

Lets start at v. 11

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

We speak of that we do know... When one testifies about something we can assume he/she is talking about something hes seen... Jesus makes it very clear that he was alive before his incarnation... Just as all of us were, but that fact is hidden from us... He saw it, and remembered it unlike most people... He doesn't speak of heavenly things for the most part In the gospels, just as he said here... its pointless because most people don't even believe what hes saying on about this life...

He says specifically NO MAN has ascended to heaven but those who came from heaven... Even the son of man, which is in heaven... The son of man in this case are the spirits that have yet to be born...

Many people mistake the idea of the son of man, Not only was he talking about himself, but us as well... Just as he said, the son of man has power to forgive sins...

So as I've said, We all came from heaven, and we all return when its our time

a reply to: Akragon

We speak of that we do know...

Jesus says "we".
Look at the verse.
He isn't talking about just his own personal experience.

... Just as he said, the son of man has power to forgive sins...

He meant himself, there.
He was using the term in the apocalyptic sense.
He was this person foretold, that was going to bring this great spiritual blessing to the other saints.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

We speak of that we do know...

Jesus says "we".
Look at the verse.
He isn't talking about just his own personal experience.

it was a general statement.... Everyone speaks of what they know, what they've seen...

He meant himself, there.
He was using the term in the apocalyptic sense.
He was this person foretold, that was going to bring this great spiritual blessing to the other saints.

I disagree... Are you not the son of man?

Am I not as well.... every person is the son of man... Thus WE all have power to forgive....

Its even in the lords prayer...

a reply to: Akragon

it was a general statement.... Everyone speaks of what they know, what they've seen...

No, this isn't Paul where he is using a rhetorical device.
He means his group and what they are teaching.

I disagree... Are you not the son of man?

No.
I may be a son of a man.
That wasn't the way he was talking.
People came to see what he was doing and who he might be, and he told them.

Its even in the lords prayer...

Those who have trespassed against us.
The person Jesus forgave never did anything to Jesus personally that he needed to forgive the man for.

a reply to: jmdewey60

No, this isn't Paul where he is using a rhetorical device.
He means his group and what they are teaching.

Even if that is the case it is no less true... The gospels are supposed to be testemonies of people who witnessed his life...

Just as he said, We speak of what we know, and what we've seen... Well HE saw heaven, he was there... and he remembered being there

No.
I may be a son of a man.
That wasn't the way he was talking.
People came to see what he was doing and who he might be, and he told them.

Right... And he was also the son of man... the virgin birth was a mistranslation... Most scholars know this aside from a few hardcore Christian fundies... Virgin can also be translated as "young women"...

Yes he was the son of God as well, but the son of man none the less...

Those who have trespassed against us.
The person Jesus forgave never did anything to Jesus personally that he needed to forgive the man for.

Forgive them Father, for the know not what they do....

The son of man has power to forgive sins...

a reply to: Akragon

The son of man has power to forgive sins...

That would be God.
You can be from heaven and go back to heaven all you want, but it doesn't make you God.
The Son of Man Character is basically God, or rather a god, who appears as a man, and has fellows who are men, but are the Saints of a heavenly like status.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

The son of man has power to forgive sins...

That would be God.
You can be from heaven and go back to heaven all you want, but it doesn't make you God.
The Son of Man Character is basically God, or rather a god, who appears as a man, and has fellows who are men, but are the Saints of a heavenly like status.

Why would he ask God to forgive them if he was speaking exclusively of himself?

Could he not just forgive them and be done with it?

Son of man has duel meaning... He is the son of man, but so are we... most times he speaks of himself... others hes speaking of us as the son of man...

Just as the Sabbath was made for man, the son of man is lord of the Sabbath...

originally posted by: arpgme

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Just leave the real monotheism to Jews and Muslims and get rid of your infatuation with a perfectly monotheistic people who consider christianity as perverse paganism and curse Jesus as a false prophet.

I didn't know that Muslims admit that they don't believe in Jesus and see him as a false prophet, very interesting.

whats intersting is that you are the only one who arrived at that conclusion. Its a fact that Jews insult Jesus and Christians are infatuated with Jews, as shown in this thread. Some of them even like cosplaying as Jews and calling themselves ''Jews''.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
I'll make a separate thread for this later,

and while you are at acknowledge in all the other many anti-Christian threads you've started that you were proven wrong in them.

All I've seen from you are opinions and copy pastes from biased sites. They are neither ''facts'' nor do they ''prove'' anything....but keep telling yourself otherwise. And lets just wait to hear directly from warminindy and maybe other christians, whether or not they would describe Moses as a ''murderer'' and ''sex slaver''.

a reply to: Akragon

Could he not just forgive them and be done with it?

No.
He wasn't done.
All those dire warnings that he was giving them still had to work out, so they were not getting off the hook.
He could say, "For my part, I would be willing to forgive them for what they did to me personally, so don't destroy them right this second. Give them some time to realize what they have done."
There is a lapse of time, enough to allow them to repent, then judgment would come.
Then, The Son of Man takes on its meaning in full force in ending that age and ushering the new age, the one we are in now.
So it is a bit paradoxical, that the reverse of what the people who killed Jesus wanted is what ends up happening.

Just as the Sabbath was made for man, the son of man is lord of the Sabbath...

That's sort of a cutesy play on words but I don't think that was what the gospels meant.

a reply to: Akragon
Only a few references of Son of Man can be about Jesus. Daniel says the saints of the holy one will come that everlasting kingdom is for them. In the revelation of John a woman with a crown of tewlve stars appeared. Moon under her feet and sun her cloth.The third of star was cast down. And a son of her was saved by God. For everlasting kingdom.
Jesus says the Son of Man will come over the clouds. And kingdom will be for him.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Again.... IF he was God, part of the "trinity" would he not know the Fathers plan?

Besides that we're getting of the original discussion... that being we ALL came from the same place we return to...

originally posted by: maes2
a reply to: Akragon
Only a few references of Son of Man can be about Jesus. Daniel says the saints of the holy one will come that everlasting kingdom is for them. In the revelation of John a woman with a crown of tewlve stars appeared. Moon under her feet and sun her cloth.The third of star was cast down. And a son of her was saved by God. For everlasting kingdom.
Jesus says the Son of Man will come over the clouds. And kingdom will be for him.

Except revelation is from John of Patmos, not Jesus as it lays claim....

So it really doesn't matter what revelation says...

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

And lets just wait to hear directly from warminindy and maybe other christians, whether or not they would describe Moses as a ''murderer'' and ''sex slaver''.

Moses was definitely a murderer according to the Book of Exodus.
I wouldn't say he was a slave trader.
There is one instance where they spared the unmarried young women to be taken as wives by the Israelites.
They weren't sold off, so technically, it wasn't trade.

a reply to: Akragon

Again.... IF he was God, part of the "trinity" would he not know the Fathers plan?

Things happened while Jesus was on the cross, serious things, like an end of the wold event.
As it turned out, the world did not end, right then, but it did, later, and there was a sign left, the torn veil in the temple, a forewarning of the postponed end.

Besides that we're getting of the original discussion... that being we ALL came from the same place we return to...

The original discussion started when I said that there was a divinity to Jesus.
You either disagree, or you think everyone is divine.
I don't think so.
There are different types of entities that inhabit the universe.
A divine entity could, apparently give up its divinity.
Of course, not according to Islam, they think everyone stays the same.
But, regardless of that, I mean according to the New Testament.
Jesus gave up his divine status to become a mortal.
He then was at a point in that mortal life, filled with the spirit.
He was killed, then resurrected into an immortal body, the same sort of thing that we will be resurrected into.
Then he was filled with the godhead.
So in a way he ended up where he started, as divine, but in a unique way to himself.
All the while (since originally giving up his divinity) being one of us, but now he is as we will be (minus the godhead part).

a reply to: jmdewey60

Things happened while Jesus was on the cross, serious things, like an end of the wold event.
As it turned out, the world did not end, right then, but it did, later, and there was a sign left, the torn veil in the temple, a forewarning of the postponed end.

I would hardly say it ended... sure there were wars... the temple was destroyed a few decades later...

No end of the "world" though, unless you're speaking figuratively of course...

The original discussion started when I said that there was a divinity to Jesus.
You either disagree, or you think everyone is divine.

I don't disagree at all, but I do think everyone has a divine part within them...

There are different types of entities that inhabit the universe.
A divine entity could, apparently give up its divinity.

More Paul?

Jesus gave up his divine status to become a mortal.
He then was at a point in that mortal life, filled with the spirit.
He was killed, then resurrected into an immortal body, the same sort of thing that we will be resurrected into.

So I take it you believe in a bodily resurrection as opposed to a spiritual one?

So in a way he ended up where he started, as divine, but in a unique way to himself.
All the while, being one of us, but now, as we will be, minus the godhead part.

That's what I've been saying... We return from whence we came...

Though I agree Jesus was above us....

a reply to: Akragon

I would hardly say it ended... sure there were wars... the temple was destroyed a few decades later...

No end of the "world" though, unless you're speaking figuratively of course...

The end of the world was what very well could have happened, right then and there, while Jesus hung on the cross.
It didn't, thanks to Jesus praying that it didn't.
The end of the age came, in a dramatic way that created a clear demarcation point, but, decades later, as you mentioned.

I don't disagree at all, but I do think everyone has a divine part within them...

You can always just make up your own definition, but what it means is: god.

More Paul?

You seem to have a weird fixation on Paul.

So I take it you believe in a bodily resurrection as opposed to a spiritual one?

Physical/spiritual, meaning it is not "natural", but "spiritual" in that it does not corrupt.

That's what I've been saying... We return from whence we came...

Though I agree Jesus was above us....

You have some sort of fixation on this ideal god who you know nothing about, and have to strip everyone else of any claim to divinity to be loyal to this creation of your own imagination.
Or that is the impression that I get from things that you write.
Jesus is acting God, that's what godhead means.
Whether he is the "real" God is irrelevant.
My point is that we are not God, never were, and never will be.
If you ended up where you started, it means you are still you, it doesn't mean you are god.