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Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

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posted on May, 13 2014 @ 09:23 PM
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Why there should be any contention amongst the people of Israel and the Christian people is a peculiar thing. If there are any people in this world who appreciate the history of the Hebrew people throughout the ages more than Jews and Christians I am ignorant. As a Catholic Christian I cherish the religious heritage that Israel has inherited, and recognize the truth and wisdom within the Sacred Scriptures. That they have been preserved so carefully and transcribed from age to age with such attenuation and care by the scribes is something to be truly grateful for. The stories of God, His Power, unfathomable wisdom, faithfulness, and love to His people. Stories of heroics, and painful lessons, of love, and betrayal, and above all the promise of deliverance from the world to the promised land-and the promise of Messiah! Stories about prophets of God so powerful they have made the ground shake by His power, raised the dead, parted the seas, and humbled mighty nations;. Stories about their undeniably convincing relevance. What glorious hope have the Jewish people, for they are the People chosen by God to reveal Himself to mankind! Stories about justice, laws, judges, and kings that experienced the terror of the punishing hand of God, as well as His blessings, His faithfulness, His mercy and forgiveness, to this I attest. Stories about sacrifice and passionate, selfless, love so great my mind can not conceive. Stories about the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob! The One True God, of Heaven, and Earth. Sheer wonder!

The current of the world threatens to set these people against each other, and for no reason, as if we were two, when we are really one. These things Christians also delight in, and with faith firm, for it was by faith that Abraham pleased the LORD. Hallelujah! In addition to these stories, laws, we find Gods' covenant to man and His plan for redemption, Messiah, the branch from the root of Jesse that we find in Isaiah 11. In addition to the mysterious suffering servant of Isaiah 53, a clear reference to Messiah, we find promises of a new earth in Isaiah 66. The scriptures abound with meaningful allusions and references to this promised future Messiah of the Line of David, the Prince of Peace, and Wonder Counselor.

“[1] And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root. [2] And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom, and of understanding, the spirit of counsel, and of fortitude, the spirit of knowledge, and of godliness. [3] And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge according to the sight of the eyes, nor reprove according to the hearing of the ears. [4] But he shall judge the poor with justice, and shall reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: land he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. [5] And justice shall be the girdle of his loins: and faith the girdle of his reins.”1

1Douay-Rheims Bible 1899, Isaiah 11, www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=27&ch=11.




posted on May, 13 2014 @ 10:00 PM
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They may have been 'the chosen ones', but they sure don't act very 'godly' in the present day and age.



posted on May, 13 2014 @ 10:38 PM
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a reply to: mrphilosophias

These things Christians also delight in, and with faith firm, for it was by faith that Abraham pleased the LORD.
Paul mentions Abraham in that it was believed that God told him to go to the land of Canaan.
I think he was using a known story to make a point, rather than verifying that there was an actual person Abraham.

we find Gods' covenant to man and His plan for redemption, Messiah, the branch from the root of Jesse that we find in Isaiah 11.
That was the idea that there would be a restored kingdom under the Persians, instead they got Herod and the Romans, which didn't turn out very well in the end.
Jesus redefined the messiah concept that would be good for everyone.

In addition to the mysterious suffering servant of Isaiah 53, a clear reference to Messiah, . . .
It isn't a mystery but a parable about what you just mentioned, a restored Israel after suffering the Babylonian captivity.
In real terms, Jesus made it OK to be human beings, even if we aren't perfect in these fleshly bodies.

The scriptures abound with meaningful allusions and references to this promised future Messiah of the Line of David, the Prince of Peace, and Wonder Counselor.
The high points you already mentioned. Most of the rest is rather forgettable.

edit on 13-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 13 2014 @ 10:45 PM
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a reply to: nugget1


Some points that come to mind: that you are right, but sin and the curse in the fallen world is nothing new, that God knows this but Loves us anyway, that God has made provision for the atonement of our sins, transgressions of His perfect law, His Word, that Gods' plan for the atonement of our sins and for our redemption, has been gradually revealed by God throughout time and scripture, that God has done this with imagery, allusions, prose, foreshadowing, and ways I can not conceive, forged in fire and blood.

If you take the time to read the Bible, and the Book of Isaiah you may remember that God sees our nakedness, you may learn that He wants to give us a robe to cover our nakedness, that our robes without His forgiveness are crimson as blood, that He can make us white as wool, or freshly fallen snow! This is good news indeed. If we took time to appreciate the scriptures we would understand partially that Gods' plan for forgiveness involves sacrifice, but to recall the story of Issac and the Ram of Abraham, it is God who provides the power, the mercy, the sacrifice. Every year Jewish faithful celebrate Yom Kippur, and celebrate the Passover Seder. It is not difficult to find the theme of Gods' powerful deliverance, forgiveness, and sacrifice in the stories and customs of these solemn days. That Jewish people need forgiveness for sin is no secret.

There was a time when it was an unfortunate case, for gentiles were unable to celebrate and savor these things, for they were not the chosen people of God. It may also come as no surprise that gentiles are ungodly, full of sin, affected by the fall, and the curse, yet we are equally in need of God, His power, Love, and Mercy! Thank you Jesus! It turns out God loves us, wants to forgive us, wants friendship and to commune with us, to teach us, heal us, feed us, form us, and He wants to do so so badly that, calling to mind Abraham's Ram caught in thorns, the Blood and the Wood of Passover, He gave, and always give us, the Perfect Atoning Sacrifice of His Son-Emmanuel & God Incarnate-Jesus the Christ, Who is also the Son of young Jewish virgin Mary, miraculously conceived and born of men, harkening to Sarah and the prophecies of, to shed His Precious Blood upon the altar of the Cross, at the Hands of Jew and Gentile alike, for Jesus (Yeshua?) is the Unblemished Paschal Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world! Blessed is His Name, for it is by His atoning sacrifice, upon the altar of the cross that we can be forgiven for our sins; it is by His Blessed Name that we can be saved! Bitter sweet profundity! In spite of our sins, stiff necked stubbornness, and disobedience, that His Love and Mercy are greater still! That His Blessings are greater than the fall and the curse of sin, and that those in Jesus Christ hope to share in His victory of the serpent, sin, suffering, and death itself! In the mean time we sojourn like nomads waiting for deliverance to the promised land.

How can there be any bitterness or contention between Jewish faithful and Christian, admitting past strains, Christ taught us it is better to understand than to be understood! He taught us to forgive each other in order that we can be forgiven. He taught us that anger, judgement, and vengeance belong to God alone, and that God wants to forgive us, help us, teach us, love us. So we leave the bitter behind and are left with only the sweet. What good news is this? That Gods' covenant to mankind to the innumerous descendents of Abraham extends to Jew and Gentile alike! To really appreciate it all would be impossible, and must be something of Heaven, but we must try, and when we do this, it will be impossible for us to fight against one another! To reject this great gift from God is to perish in Gehenna, for what is life without God, the author of life, and indeed Life itself, verily even All that is Good! Anything else could not be called hell.

these are just my thoughts. I can only pray that He would shine His light in my heart, mind and soul, which is His Word-Power, Alive, Active-and that these words be inspired. With faith, fortitude.
edit on 13-5-2014 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-5-2014 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-5-2014 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)
edit on 13-5-2014 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 02:07 AM
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a reply to: mrphilosophias

The Line of Judah who was the son of Israel are the chosen people. The majority of todays Jews do NOT descend from the line of Judah let alone Semitic origins.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 03:30 AM
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You're talking about human bloodlines. Romans 4
edit on 14-5-2014 by mrphilosophias because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 10:15 AM
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So you're ok with many Hebrews who think they're the only humans on earth, and that everyone else are animals put here to serve them? Why would god only choose one people and not all people? Doesn't this story sound a little one-sided to you? Why would anyone accept being born in debt to anyone else? I think all of it is crazy and made-up, but if it makes you a better person then hey! go for it. Don't expect everyone else to fall in line, and don't attack people for questioning the story and who wrote it. Scientology was man-made too. And Israel is an illegal state formed through a questionable war and other tactics. No messiah gave it to them.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 10:32 AM
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originally posted by: mrphilosophias
Why there should be any contention amongst the people of Israel and the Christian people is a peculiar thing.
contentions exist because the people of israel, at least the religious ones, are pure monotheists and abhor the very idea of gods beside God. Dont bother explaining the trinity to me because Jews oppose the very idea of a man being called God as the polytheistic christians believe. Christianity is the same as hinduism....both believe in multiple deities , and both believe in the idea that a man can be called ''god'', or that God can descend to earth as a man. In fact, some hindus I know are OPEN to the idea that Jesus was an ''incarnation'' of God ...not very different from the hindu belief that Krishna was a human incarnation of God. Just leave the real monotheism to Jews and Muslims and get rid of your infatuation with a perfectly monotheistic people who consider christianity as perverse paganism and curse Jesus as a false prophet.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 10:48 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Christianity is the same as hinduism....both believe in multiple deities

You keep spewing that nonsense ... even after having been educated with the facts showing that to be wrong.

Christianity ... ONE GOD, THREE MANIFESTATIONS OF THAT ONE GOD.
God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit.
ONE God. Three manifestations.

It's really very simple to understand. But you don't want to.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 10:54 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
consider christianity as perverse paganism

Noldeke from The Book of Idols - "We have to take into consideration the fact that Muhammad incorporated in his religion a number of heathen practices and beliefs, with little or no modification, ... "
Wanna talk 'perverse paganism' .. how about worship of a meteorite and 'running between hills' - directly taken from the pagans of Arabia.


TO THE OP .... you are lamenting the status of the Christian and Jewish relationship, but the fact is that it won't be completely healed until the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah. And that probably won't happen until Christ returns.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 10:59 AM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Christianity is the same as hinduism....both believe in multiple deities

You keep spewing that nonsense ... even after having been educated with the facts showing that to be wrong.

Christianity ... ONE GOD, THREE MANIFESTATIONS OF THAT ONE GOD.
God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit.
ONE God. Three manifestations.



no I've just had the opinions of christian trinitarian polytheists flung at me. The Jews who are monotheists....whose book the christians cling on to...don't buy the idea of ''one God, three manifestations''. The very idea resembles the hindu idea of ONE pantheon, three thousand manifestation. Both ideas = polytheistic trash. Like I've said before, leave Monotheism to Jews and Muslims. We get it right. You dont.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:09 AM
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@ flyersan..... noldoke who? Sorry he isn't a canonical prophet recognized by christianiy or judaism. His words dont matter really.
edit on 14-5-2014 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:11 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
I've just had the opinions of christian trinitarian polytheists flung at me.

Christians aren't 'polytheists' .. no matter how many times you lie and say that, it isn't true.

The Jews who are monotheists...don't buy the idea of ''one God, three manifestations''.

So what? Judaism gets a lot of stuff wrong. So do the Muslims So what?

Both ideas = polytheistic trash.

Christianity = monotheism. Islam = fictional trash.
See ... I can do it too.

We get it right. You dont.

Not even close.


TO THE OP .... despite the attempt of Islam to cozy up to the Jewish scriptural characters and practices, the truth of the matter is that the pagan practices in Islam are an incomprehensible jumble of fictitious lore and an attempt to 'ride the coat tails' of Judaism in some kind of effort to legitimize and rationalize Islam. Judaism is monotheistic. Christianity is monotheistic. Islam claims to be, but the superstitious reverence to the pagan practices carried forward from pre-Islam Arabia are evident ... such as the worship of a meteorite and 'running between hills' etc etc. Christianity and Judaism will someday reunite, but it won't be until Christ returns. That's when the fullness of faith will be realized in Judaism. Islam, on the other hand .... not so much.
edit on 5/14/2014 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:22 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
noldoke who? Sorry he isn't a canonical prophet recognized by christianiy or judaism. His words dont matter really.

Oh that's right ... educated historians and scientists and archeologists are idiots to you.
Theodor Noldeke
Award winning French academic historian.
Expert on Persia, Semitic languages, and the history and civilization of Islam

Additional reading - The Book of Idols, being a translation from the Arabic of the Kitāb al-Aṣnām by Hishām ibn-al-Kalbi


Again to the OP .... there can be no healing of the Jewish/Islam .... there will, however, be a healing of the rift between the Christians and the Jews. If you believe in biblical prophecy, it is stated as such ... that they will recognize that they missed the messiah and repent ...

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Zechariah 12:9-14 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (11) In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (12) And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; (13) The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; (14) All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

edit on 5/14/2014 by FlyersFan because: bold



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:26 AM
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@flyersfan...''christians arent 'polytheists' .. no matter how many times you lie ''............ Hate to break it to you but christians ARE polytheists. Hindus claim monotheosm while claiming their trinity of 'brahma, vishnu, maheshwara'' are god. Christians claim ''father, son,holy spirit'' ...three separate beings....are god. I reject christianity for the same reason that I reject hinduism. Both are polytheistic.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
christians ARE polytheists.

Still dead wrong.

Hindus claim monotheosm while ...

Different religion. Different situation.


TO THE OP - More scripture quotes for you that the Jews will be reconciled with the Christians -

“For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

The Bible tells us that in the end times, Israel will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Jeremiah 33:8, Ezekiel 11:17, and Romans 11:26 predict that in the end times Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered in their homeland. This is when they will accept Christ and therefore become Christians.

In this end time, the Jews will come together with the Christians in a final battle against the anti-Christ .... possibly coming from Mecca. It'll be Islam that bring Christians and Jews together ... a common spiritual enemy ... at least according to some interesting interpretations of scripture.




posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:43 AM
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originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: mrphilosophias
Why there should be any contention amongst the people of Israel and the Christian people is a peculiar thing.
contentions exist because the people of israel, at least the religious ones, are pure monotheists and abhor the very idea of gods beside God.


Really? Then you DON'T know the Torah at all. I am so amazed that you really don't know what monotheism actually is. It means there is ONE God that they worship, NOT that there aren't OTHER GODS.

Ba'al, Ashtoroth, Molech...all were gods. And yes, at times the Jews worshiped them. You just don't get it, do you.


Exodus 15: 11Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?


Among the gods, as Musa wrote?

The Hebrew word used for one in the Shema Y'Israel is ECHAD, which means UNITY. Not the number one.

And again, read Genesis 18 without your blinders. THREE MEN Abraham called LORD. And LORD was used as ECHAD. Unity.

Musa wrote, "Thou shalt have no OTHER gods beside me" meaning THERE ARE OTHER GODS. That means that THIS GOD is who they are supposed to worship. Allah is a DIFFERENT god. And your Mohammed and you violate that first commandment every time the shahada is repeated. You DON'T worship the God of Musa.

It is STILL monotheism in Zoroastrianism, which even Mohammed said they were, but Mohammed didn't worship Ahura Mazda, did he? And he didn't even know the name Ahura Mazda. He simply picked out a god and decided to worship it. Another god, not the God of Musa.

Monotheism means you worship A GOD, not many gods, even though there are many gods out there. Your idea that the trinity is false means you don't even know Hebrew, because you don't know the meaning of echad.

Shema Y'Israel, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

Hear oh Israel, the Lord thy God, the Lord is one (in unity). And why does Mohammed never say Adonai? Never does he say that, so allah is not his lord, allah is his ba'al, his possessor, because that's what Ba'al means, master or possessor. Not the God of Musa.

Mohammed's ignorance was outstanding. His ignorance about the Torah is mind-blowing. He got basic facts so extraordinarily wrong. And guess what, 3 billion people believing it doesn't make it right, it means 3 billion people believe a wrong thing. And then kill people over it.


Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.



Exodus 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.



Exodus 23:32
Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.



Numbers 25:2
And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.



Deuteronomy 6:14
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;



Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:



Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.



Joshua 24:2
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.



1 Samuel 7:3
And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the Lord, and serve him only: and he will deliver you out of the hand of the Philistines.



Jeremiah 7:9
Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;


Allah is just a god among gods, that's all. And your Mohammed picked him out among those gods and worshiped him. Not even the God of Musa, but a strange god of a nation, and still worshiped today.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 11:46 AM
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@flyersfan.....''there there will be no healing of the jewish/islam''........ Bible says Israel would a third with egypt and assyria, both modern day muslim regions. This proves observant Jews and Muslims are pre-destined to unite...like how Ishak and Ishmail united. Its not surprising since jews are monotheists. Christians are polytheists and so dont belong in the same bracket as proper monotheists. Find me a religious jew who believes god can be born of a woman and show up as a man...and I'll change my mind. And no, christian pagan cults posing as Jews do not count.



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Just leave the real monotheism to Jews and Muslims and get rid of your infatuation with a perfectly monotheistic people who consider christianity as perverse paganism and curse Jesus as a false prophet.
Keep in mind that if you wanted to convert to Judaism, number one you would have to renounce Jesus.
(and I am addressing the OP, and not you since you get this)
So the idea of cuddling up with Jews is a fantasy.
They are just happy to take your money for the support of their colonization of Palestine.
Don't imagine that you could go there yourself and feel welcomed as a Christian, other than as a tourist who doesn't say anything, just look around, and go back to wherever they came from.
edit on 14-5-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2014 @ 12:05 PM
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@warminindy...... ''I am so amazed that you really don't know what monotheism actually is. It means there is ONE God''........haha trinitarian christians are in absolutely no position to give sermons on monotheism as it is a concept beyond their understanding. Listen, leave monotheism to religious Jews and Muslims. You can learn from us, anytime you choose to leave behind your polytheism and corpse worship.






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