Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

a reply to: jmdewey60

You don't believe there is a part of us which is divine?

IF the soul/spirit was created by God, and consequently returns to God... would that not be divine?

a reply to: Akragon

IF the soul/spirit was created by God, and consequently returns to God... would that not be divine?

What would "returns to God" mean?
I think that just refers to the life-force that animates your physical body.
It isn't about the spiritual you, or the non-physical component of who you are.
That goes to some sort to Hades type place, or to be 'with your ancestors', as the Old Testament says it.
A divine being would be a person who in their natural state are non-physical.
They would operate as a normal person but not subject to a lot of the physical laws and restrictions as persons living in the ordinary physical realm would.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Right... Is that not divine?

adjective: divine; comparative adjective: diviner; superlative adjective: divinest

1. of, from, or like God or a god

Return to God would mean, return to where we came from... which I hope, and do personally believe is where our loved ones that have already passed will be waiting...

Its quite clear by the gospels that we return home when we pass...

What that is like is hidden from us from birth... but we've all been there

a reply to: Akragon

Return to God would mean, return to where we came from... which I hope, and do personally believe is where our loved ones that have already passed will be waiting...

Its quite clear by the gospels that we return home when we pass...

What that is like is hidden from us from birth... but we've all been there

What are you basing all of this on?
I mean . . like, where does it say that we came from anywhere?
I suppose it would be implied by the use of the word "return".
But, like I said, It isn't talking about what you think it does.
If you are quoting the Bible, then it is the Old Testament, and it doesn't believe in anyone going to Heaven.
The New Testament doesn't say that either, though it does say something about being caught up in the air.
It doesn't go on to say that we go to any place in particular, other that it will be with Jesus, but that is some far off hypothetical situation.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You still are avoiding directly answering the questions I gave. Show me how worship of a meteorite and running circles around a cube building are monotheistic and not pagan ... considering that these things came directly from the pagans good luck with that. You've signed on and seen the thread since those were posted ...

Stop getting your ''facts'' from sites like answering islam dotcom. Until them you will be placed in the same basket as those who...for example, posts material from anti-Christian sites claiming ''Jesus is Mithras'' and screaming ''FACT!''. It makes them look pitiful.

I never use AnsweringIslam for my posts here, but I do know Sam Shamoun.......... ..................AnsweringIslam actually exposes what your Quran is saying.

then by that same logic, accet that sites devoted to bashing christianity are also revealing the truth...that too in english so regular christians can understand...since their pastors are totally confused.

a reply to: jmdewey60

What are you basing all of this on?
I mean . . like, where does it say that we came from anywhere?

I told you, the gospels...

I suppose it would be implied by the use of the word "return".

Right

But, like I said, It isn't talking about what you think it does.

Oh but it is... though most Christians take it differently... its pretty hard to deny when one takes the gospels as HIS message....

If you are quoting the Bible, then it is the Old Testament, and it doesn't believe in anyone going to Heaven.

I rarely quote the OT, and if I do its usually only the Psalms...

The New Testament doesn't say that either, though it does say something about being caught up in the air.

Well that's Paul, being caught up into the second and third heaven... I don't quote Paul either

It doesn't go on to say that we go to any place in particular, other that it will be with Jesus, but that is some far off hypothetical situation.

Well IF he sits at the right hand of God, I would only assume its the same place as we go...

Read over his conversation with Nicodemus... No man goes to heaven but those who came from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven...

IF you're headed there, you've already been...

a reply to: Akragon

Well that's Paul, being caught up into the second and third heaven... I don't quote Paul either

That's in 1 Thessalonians.
It's the Rapture.
I don't mean what you are talking about, Paul and the going to heaven thing.

Well IF he sits at the right hand of God, I would only assume its the same place as we go...

Nope.
That ends at the Rapture, according to Philippians 2.

Read over his conversation with Nicodemus... No man goes to heaven but those who came from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven...

He was talking about himself.

IF you're headed there, you've already been...

But we aren't, that's my point.
You are just making assumptions based on faulty logic and misinterpretations.

a reply to: jmdewey60

I know that.... but its still Pauline scripture...

Nope.
That ends at the Rapture, according to Philippians 2.

Well the rapture is hardly anything that Jesus mentioned... That's pretty much a newer idea

He was talking about himself.

only in the last part... the idea he was trying to get across was that we all came from the same place, and we return to it in spirit

But we aren't, that's my point.
You are just making assumptions based on faulty logic and misinterpretations.

How do you figure?

a reply to: Akragon

Well the rapture is hardly anything that Jesus mentioned... That's pretty much a newer idea

Jesus mentions it, the relationship with the prophecy of David in the Psalms of sitting at the right hand of God.
The second part is "until I make your enemies your footstool".
That creates an end point.
Paul defines where that point is, and it is at the Rapture, so we are not all going to be sitting at the right hand of God, too.

only in the last part... the idea he was trying to get across was that we all came from the same place, and we return to it in spirit

I'm not seeing it.

How do you figure?

You are going off a single verse that is very vague in what it means exactly.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
New International Version

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Oh yes, God has a body, but it isn't corporeal like yours or mine.

a 'non-corporeal body' is a self contradicting term. Like 'freezing fire'.

But most of all, God is a Father, one that you deny that God can be, your Quran says that God is not a Father, and yet the Torah DOES.

The OT also says God was a ''husband'' to the Israelites. If you do not take that literally, then by the SAME standard Torah calls God ''Father'' in an absolutely non-literal way...not as a father begetting sons, which is denied by Muslins.

Does allah hear without ears? Body part..... Does allah see without eyes? Body part.......how does allah think without a mind residing in a brain....... How does allah create without hands??........... how does he speak?

You are comparing God to human anatomy.... Also, if you claim God has body parts is then go all the way.. Does God have a stomach like humans? What does he eat? And how is it digested? Does Gods hair and nails keep growing...like humans?etc. The issue of Gods body parts are a slippery slope.

if it is mere figurative then that means the Quran is allegorical and can't be taken as real.

Just because the bible uses allegories and symbolic language here and there doesn't mean that Jesus' was only allegorically raised to heaven does it? We discern between allegorical and literal.

a reply to: jmdewey60
Its not a single verse, this whole passage refers to what i'm talking about... He even tells Niodemus that he's not going to understand what hes saying anyways... likely because as a Pharisee, hes far to wrapped up in what hes known his whole life to open his mind to what Jesus was actually saying...

Much like most Christians actually... many are just so consumed by what they've been taught their afraid to just let the texts speak for themselves...


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I wasn't thinking about that but it sounds about right.... though again, not a fan of the OT for spiritual knowledge

a reply to: WarminIndy

Also, you brought up the idea of God being a father in the Bible. I pointed out that the Bible also calls God a Husband. so why do you accept 'father' but not 'husband'?

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Wouldn't a husband be equal to his wife?

Thus Making God equal with us?

a reply to: Akragon

. . . open his mind to what Jesus was actually saying...

So far, you are just quoting the verses.
I looked at them when you first mentioned them.
Can you like walk me through the thought process involved with going from the text, to your conclusion?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: maes2

Very good question. Islam is not literal. a minority of muslims really think God has hands. or legs. or ears. This is because Muslims have forgotten the true successor of their prophet, Ali. The same as Christians who have forgotten the successor of Jesus, Saint Peter and they say Jesus was God. So I invite us to take a look at description of God from mouth of the forgotten successor of Muhammad, Ali :

Is this what makes the difference between Sunni and Shia?

Truth belongs to humanity not any special group. It belongs to you Christians, It is written in your books.

Peter was a disciple, Paul was an apostle, but when it comes to the Gospel, neither of them are better or worse than the other. As far as successor, no. There was no successor to Jesus Christ.

All prophets have successors. Bible is full of such stories. A Prophet appoint his successor himself and the chain of successors continue. Successors of Prophets are the most knowledgeable and they have high piety.

In the Gospel of Matthew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So Jesus appointed saint Peter. But who has appointed Paul ! A claim. A sleep. Paul A Jew who was going to kill Christians suddenly claimed that Jesus appointed him in the middle of road !! with which right Paul opposed saint Peter. While He was never from the disciples.

This is the true baptism, the mystical communion and union of Christ and His church.

Ok you quoted texts that I will ponder on them. But shall I show you true baptism hidden from your eyes !
Find an Aramaic gospel. For example Pesh-itta. Go to for example Matthew 3:11, It is written :

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Check the Aramaic words with the Aramaic alphabet (Syriac script) available in the net. you will see the word that they have mistranslated as "mightier" or "stronger" but it is the name of a person. It is "ܚܗܝܢ" pronounces as HSIN or with equivalent Arabic "حسین". This can never be translated as strong. John the baptist is saying Hussain will come someday. Hussain who was killed like John the baptist and his name was special the same as the name of John the baptist. I knew a link to the original text. But it is Broken. Most likely censored !

Just pray that Jesus returns sooner and sooner.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n
You again avoided answering .....
You said I lied about Moses being a murderer and a sex slaver.
I gave the scripture quotes showing he was indeed a mass murdering sex slaver.

- Admit that he was.
- Admit that YOU lied when you said that I lied.
Go ahead .... you can do it if you try. Tell the truth.

While you are at it ... answer the question .... what is 'monotheistic' about worshipping a meteorite; what is 'monotheistic' about the running between the hills as the pagans did; what is 'monotheistic' about using Hubals crescent and star on the flag and on the mosques? Care to enlighten us as to why you consider those things to be 'monotheistic'??

originally posted by: mrphilosophias
a reply to: mrphilosophias

I hope some who take their inheritance in the God of their Ancestors seriously will be edified by these things. To really consider the story of Jesus the Christ. Who do you say He is?

Who ? Jesus ! He is servant of God. He is alive. He can help people with God's permission. He can pray for people with God's permission.

The world lies. God is Truth. Jesus is the Son of the Living God, He is Emmanuel, and verily, God incarnate, and He alone has the words that lead to eternal life. Check it out...

FlyersFan said manifestation. you said incarnation. There is a difference. 2d image of sun can be seen in the clean mirrors this is manifestation. But one can not say the 3d sun itself is in the mirror. this is incarnation.

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: mrphilosophias
a reply to: mrphilosophias

I hope some who take their inheritance in the God of their Ancestors seriously will be edified by these things. To really consider the story of Jesus the Christ. Who do you say He is?

Who ? Jesus ! He is servant of God. He is alive. He can help people with God's permission. He can pray for people with God's permission.

The world lies. God is Truth. Jesus is the Son of the Living God, He is Emmanuel, and verily, God incarnate, and He alone has the words that lead to eternal life. Check it out...

FlyersFan said manifestation. you said incarnation. There is a difference. 2d image of sun can be seen in the clean mirrors this is manifestation. But one can not say the 3d sun itself is in the mirror. this is incarnation.

Which means that Jesus is more than a prophet.

Christ is the head, there are no successors. I can pray for you, because God commands me to. That's what it means to be in Christ, we can do all of those things Jesus did, because we are in the living body of the living Christ. That means that right now, I can pray for you and God will hear my prayer.

Manifest means that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, because the flesh is incarnate. God is a spirit, but Jesus in the incarnate flesh of God, because the spirit manifested as flesh. There is nothing impossible with God, wouldn't you agree?

When you say impossible when it comes to God, that means you put a limit on God. Are you really able to say God is limited in what God can do?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Wouldn't a husband be equal to his wife?

Thus Making God equal with us?

the problem is that God is described in the bible as BOTH a father and a husband. Its obvious that it was symbolic language designating closeness to God. Jesus and Adam being ''sons'' was just as symbolic. Jesus ''sonship'' was as a title, it did not make him God or a part of God.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Wouldn't a husband be equal to his wife?

Thus Making God equal with us?

the problem is that God is described in the bible as BOTH a father and a husband. Its obvious that it was symbolic language designating closeness to God. Jesus and Adam being ''sons'' was just as symbolic. Jesus ''sonship'' was as a title, it did not make him God or a part of God.

Let me ask you,

Is there anything impossible with God?