Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
leave Monotheism to Jews and Muslims. We get it right.

So you officially admit you are a Muslim? Here, you said you weren't Muslim . That was a year and a half ago. Was that a lie?

Some of the non-monotheistic paganism in Islam .... Islamic worship of a meteorite rock that the pagans worshipped; the crescent and star of Islam are the crescent and star of the goddess Diana and the pagan god Hubal; praying 5 times a day to Mecca comes from the Zoroastarian fire worshippers as well as the 'call to worship' on top of the towers; doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is directly from the pagans of the area; Ihram garments come directly from the pagans of that area; circumambulation of the meteorite (and the idols that were in the Kabbah) comes directly from the pagans worshipping Hubal and is something that the Hindus do with they many gods as well (but the Jews and Christians do not); Hubals symbol of the crescent moon is over the Mosques in which Muslims go to worship their god; the cube shape of the Kabbah comes from the pagans of the area who used to worship their rock gods in the shapes of cubes; 'washing the feet' washes away all sins ... Muhammad would 'wash his feet' by waving his hands over them and then he'd declare himself sin-free; animism throughout Islam; the superstitions of things like 'blow your nose because the devil lives in it'; .... etc etc

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
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throughout history there have been Jews who have been accepting Jesus as Messiah.

by converting to christianity? Or do they accept Jesus as a human messiah/propht? The answer to that question makes all the difference.

Just tonight, my very religious Jewish friend called me to ask me to pray for her father.

keyword : ''friend''.

So you make a straw man argument, a non sequitur, because in Judaism, it is at the individual level, if a Jew chooses to believe in Jesus, they are still Jews according to Judaism and cannot be denied the fact they have a Jewish mother.

Jewish atheists are still ''ethnic'' jews. A jew who accepts Jesus as God becomes a christian.. A jew who accepts Jesus as a human messiah, as THEIR torah says....would still remain a Jew. But this a highly unlikely thing

This is why those who believe in Jesus are called Messianic Jews, which is really what I am, a Messianic Jew.

Messianic ''Jews'' are a cunning christian cult in a Jewish disguise, using Jewish names and phrases...obviously to appeal tp the Jewish people who they are obsessed with converting. This is why orthodox jews have launched anti-missionary movements to counter chrstians posing as Jews.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
the 'israelites' are a race/ethnic group who were ''muslim'' in the sense they were monotheistic with a perfect understanding of God's oneness... submitting to the will of God alone...not a man-god or a trinity...just God alone.

- Israelites aren't Muslim in any sense of the word.
- Christians worship God alone. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Three manifestations of the ONE GOD. So again, your Muslim spin fails.

There is a difference between reincarnation and manifestation. Of Course we are all manifestations of God. But the most perfect humans like Jesus, Moses and Muhammed they are the best manifestations of God ! specially Muhammed

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Islam ackowledges that God sent the Torah, the Gospel and the Zibbur to the Israelites...

The ISRAELITES .. not the MUSLIMS. And yet the Muslims try to say that those Hebrews were really Muslims. It's silly. And they rewrite history to try to make their religion somehow legitimate and tied to the Hebrews.

the 'israelites' are a race/ethnic group who were ''muslim'' in the sense they were monotheistic, submitting to the will of God alone.

Muslims are quasi-Jews, Muslims believe in a god, not the one of the Jews, but monotheism,

plenty of orthodox jews acknowledge Allah as the God of the bible, not talking about Jews for Allah...but regular practisng Jews. Yet to see a single one of them acknowledge Jesus as God.

The words monotheism and polytheism are not found in the Bible or the Torah at all.

Not the word, but the CONCEPT exists.

Therefore, as an Orthodox Jew, Isaiah was promoting monotheism as a God of unity, rather than just one god.

Any Jew will tell you that statement is false. God being triune is a big deal...so why isn't there a clear unambiguous statement? Instead he records God as saying he is the only one who can save.

But let's see how many prophecies are given about Jesus in the OT

Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2
Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14
Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7 Daniel 2:44
Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7
Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13
Messiah would be given vinegar to drink.

jews interpret those in a completely different way. Or are you claiming that the Jews were reading their books in the wrong way?

originally posted by: maes2
Of Course we are all manifestations of God. But the most perfect humans like Jesus, Moses and Muhammed they are the best manifestations of God ! specially Muhammed

That's rather Buddhist. Which is fine. But I totally disagree with you on the 'most perfect humans' including Moses and Muhammad. Moses killed people and took slaves. Muhammed murdered and raided caravans and lied about 'divine revelations'.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Islam ackowledges that God sent the Torah, the Gospel and the Zibbur to the Israelites...

The ISRAELITES .. not the MUSLIMS. And yet the Muslims try to say that those Hebrews were really Muslims. It's silly. And they rewrite history to try to make their religion somehow legitimate and tied to the Hebrews.

the 'israelites' are a race/ethnic group who were ''muslim'' in the sense they were monotheistic, submitting to the will of God alone.

your monotheism and the Torah's prophet's monotheism, isn't the same. Otherwise, they would not have called God Elohim in the very first verse of Genesis. Elohim is the We, Elohim is the Triune God, even they know this and have never changed it.

"In the beginning, Elohim created the heaven and the earth". It has never been changed.

monotheism is monotheism...its the same concept regardless whether you say ''Allah'' ''Elohim'' or ''Elah''. As for Elohim being a triune god, the -IM suffix is a royal plural, not denoting three. Or the shema would have read ''hear Israel, your God is three''. So its the muslims who get the shema right. But hey, dont take my word for it, go ask a rabbi.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: maes2
Of Course we are all manifestations of God. But the most perfect humans like Jesus, Moses and Muhammed they are the best manifestations of God ! specially Muhammed

That's rather Buddhist. Which is fine. But I totally disagree with you on the 'most perfect humans' including Moses and Muhammad. Moses killed people and took slaves. Muhammed murdered and raided caravans and lied about 'divine revelations'.

It has nothing to do with Buddhist. It is the truth. Of course Buddhist never reach the truth. they think they can become God or there are many Gods. As you said believing in the righteous Lord or leader is very important. a Lord which guides people to the truth. Of course you do not think that you can become a God !
Consider God as sun and we as mirrors. we can see a picture or manifestation of God in the mirrors. Specially mirrors which are clean. very clean. We see a 2d image in the mirrors. But Sun is a 3d object. Of course sun is not in the mirror. sun is greater than the mirror. great souls are like clean mirrors.
God is mercy but he also punishes. Jesus stood against corrupted leaders of Israel tribe. Jesus was a revolutionary. But he was alone. He had not enough followers. If he had enough followers, corrupted leaders of Israel tribe and Romans would have not tried to kill him. The followers would have defend Jesus and a war would have happened.

@warminindy..... Why do christians even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly insult important Jewish figures such as Moses...as we see here? Care to clear that up for us?

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Why do christians even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly insult important Jewish figures such as Moses...as we see here? Care to clear that up for us?

Why do Muslims even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly say they 'can't love them' like you did? I know .. it's because they are trying to somehow legitimize their fictitious religion by riding the coat tails of the established Jewish one. BTW ... telling the truth that Moses murdered and took slaves isn't 'insulting him'. It's just telling the truth.

Care to address the facts I posted? All the paganism in the allegedly monotheistic Islam? And you didn't address the question I gave with the link. Did you previously lie when you said you weren't muslim?

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Islam ackowledges that God sent the Torah, the Gospel and the Zibbur to the Israelites...
The ISRAELITES .. not the MUSLIMS. And yet the Muslims try to say that those Hebrews were really Muslims. It's silly. And they rewrite history to try to make their religion somehow legitimate and tied to the Hebrews.

the 'israelites' are a race/ethnic group who were ''muslim'' in the sense they were monotheistic, submitting to the will of God alone.
your monotheism and the Torah's prophet's monotheism, isn't the same. Otherwise, they would not have called God Elohim in the very first verse of Genesis. Elohim is the We, Elohim is the Triune God, even they know this and have never changed it.

Plural form can be a sign of respect. Like the word Muhammadim which is mentioned in Torah !

a reply to: maes2

God is mercy but he also punishes. Jesus stood against corrupted leaders of Israel tribe. Jesus was a revolutionary. But he was alone. He had not enough followers. If he had enough followers, corrupted leaders of Israel tribe and Romans would have not tried to kill him. The followers would have defend Jesus and a war would have happened.

Matthew 26:53
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
(2011 NIV)
Though the New Testament is mainly originally written in Greek, here it uses a Latin word from the Romans.
I think that this is significant in that the Preterist interpretation of the "second coming" predicted by Jesus in Matthew was fulfilled by the "Days of Vengeance" executed by the Roman Legions after the rebels closed the gates of Jerusalem against them, resulting in rapid deployment forces converging on the city, setting a siege that was successful for them, but disastrous for the Jewish temple cult religion, and of course all the people caught up in what turned out to be the greatest human tragedy in history.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

The Jews do not say it yet, as a whole group, but throughout history there have been Jews who have been accepting Jesus as Messiah.

You know, a big chunk of the original Christian church was composed of Jews.

Thats true. While they were ''christian'' in the truest sense of the word, they werent the trinitarian-Jesus-died-for-my-sins types. They were people who upheld Jewish law and evidence is present in the bible itself. Like why was Peter suddenly concerned about ''unclean'' meat when he had a vision in acts? Why didnt he apply the christian ''logic'' that all foods have been made permissible?

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You ran off again without addressing this information.
Acknowledge that the allegedly 'monotheistic' Islam is full of paganism.

Some of the non-monotheistic paganism in Islam .... Islamic worship of a meteorite rock that the pagans worshipped; the crescent and star of Islam are the crescent and star of the goddess Diana and the pagan god Hubal; praying 5 times a day to Mecca comes from the Zoroastarian fire worshippers as well as the 'call to worship' on top of the towers; doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is directly from the pagans of the area; Ihram garments come directly from the pagans of that area; circumambulation of the meteorite (and the idols that were in the Kabbah) comes directly from the pagans worshipping Hubal and is something that the Hindus do with they many gods as well (but the Jews and Christians do not); Hubals symbol of the crescent moon is over the Mosques in which Muslims go to worship their god; the cube shape of the Kabbah comes from the pagans of the area who used to worship their rock gods in the shapes of cubes; 'washing the feet' washes away all sins ... Muhammad would 'wash his feet' by waving his hands over them and then he'd declare himself sin-free; animism throughout Islam; the superstitions of things like 'blow your nose because the devil lives in it'; .... etc etc

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

Like why was Peter suddenly concerned about ''unclean'' meat when he had a vision in acts?

I consider Acts to be basically a book of fables and not actual history.
It is probably based on things that Paul wrote, and then dramatized to make an interesting read.
Paul does mention that Peter did not want to be seen by Jewish Christians eating with gentile Christians. (Galatians 2)
So that would have been the real historical context, where the anonymous writer of Acts, a hundred years later expanded it to a more detailed story.
That is like "based on actual events" TV movies.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

The Jews do not say it yet, as a whole group, but throughout history there have been Jews who have been accepting Jesus as Messiah.

You know, a big chunk of the original Christian church was composed of Jews.

Thats true. While they were ''christian'' in the truest sense of the word, they werent the trinitarian-Jesus-died-for-my-sins types. They were people who upheld Jewish law and evidence is present in the bible itself. Like why was Peter suddenly concerned about ''unclean'' meat when he had a vision in acts? Why didnt he apply the christian ''logic'' that all foods have been made permissible?

Ok I am back this morning to answer your most inane questions.

You know nothing about Jewish people. You know nothing about individual faith. Yes, there are many, many Jewish people who do indeed accept Jesus Christ as God and Messiah. And what does it matter who my friends are to you, does it bother you that I have no Muslim friends?

Here's an idea, watch Dr. Michael Brown for a while just so you will learn something.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Why do christians even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly insult important Jewish figures such as Moses...as we see here? Care to clear that up for us?

Why do Muslims even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly say they 'can't love them' like you did?

I wasnt seeking affinity with them. Muslims sinply acknowledge that the Jews are as monotheistic as we are. Its called being honest.

telling the truth that Moses murdered and took slaves isn't 'insulting him'.

it isn't the truth. And most christians AND especially jews would disagree with you.

Care to address the facts I posted.

''facts''.

Did you previously lie when you said you weren't muslim?

I thought I made it clear in that 2012 thread that I leaned toward Islam. Besides any mature adult who is even remotely acquainted with posts and would know what I believe.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

. . . even remotely acquainted with posts . . .

On a forum, where you never know who might be reading, it is important to constantly repeat things.
I know that I get thrown off by someone just changing their avatar picture.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Muslims sinply acknowledge that the Jews are as monotheistic as we are.

Nope. Jews are monotheistic. As you can see from the long list of paganisms in Islam that I posted ... Islam isn't. Care to address all those paganisms in Islam? How about you start with Hubals crescent on top of the Mosques?

it isn't the truth.

So Moses didn't murder anyone? So Moses didn't take slaves and allow his soldiers to keep young virgin girls as slaves? So Moses didn't order his soldiers to mass murder people ? IF he even existed, that is. Answer - YES HE DID. That's the truth.

MURDER - Exodus 2:11-15 In the course of time Moses grew up. Then he went to see his own people and watched them suffering under forced labor. He saw a Hebrew, one of his own people, being beaten by an Egyptian. 12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand.

ORDERS VIRGIN SEX SLAVES FOR SOLDIERS - AND ORDERS MASS MURDER - Numbers 31:18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, keep for yourselves.

TRUTH.

@warmindy..........My questions are 100% valid, for anybody who is serious about a theological discussion, that is...but feel free to exempt yourself. And no, I'm not going to watch some youtube video you posted. Just stick to the counter-points I posted to your post. _____________________________________________________ you asked if it bother me that you dont have any Muslim friends? I don't care.

@warmindy..........My questions are 100% valid, for anybody who is serious about a theological discussion, that is...but feel free to exempt yourself. And no, I'm not going to watch some youtube video you posted. Just stick to the counter-points I posted to your post. _____________________________________________________ you asked if it bother me that you dont have any Muslim friends? I don't care.