Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
''facts''

No. FACTS. What supposedly monotheistic religion would have so much paganism? Hubals crescent on top of the building of worship? Start with that one. How about worship of a meteorite? How exactly is that monotheistic? You can answer that next. The running between the hills - taken from the pagans. All the animism. It's all right there. Comeon ... admit the fact that it's from the pagans .... you can do it if you try.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
.My questions are 100% valid, for anybody who is serious about a theological discussion,

Mine are. Go ahead and address how you can possibly say that 'Islam is monotheistic and gets it right' with all that paganism carry over going on.

@flyersfan......no they are ''facts''...those ''facts'' were propagated by the likes of Robert Morey (fake degrees, thrown out of his own church) and the folks running anti-islamic sites.....that you get all your ''facts'' from.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Muslims sinply acknowledge that the Jews are as monotheistic as we are.

Nope. Jews are monotheistic. As you can see from the long list of paganisms in Islam that I posted ... Islam isn't. Care to address all those paganisms in Islam?

Many Jews, acknowledge Allah as the God of the bible. The views of somebody who insults a number of Christian/Islamic/Jewish figures.....is worthless.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
no they are ''facts''....

Answer these ...
Yes or no? The Crescent is on top of Islamic mosques.
Yes or no? The Crescent and star come from the goddess Diana and the god Hubal.
Yes or no? Islam worship a meteorite, a carryover from the pagans.
Yes or no? Islam uses circumambulation, a carryover from the pagans of Arabia.
Yes or no? Islam 'runs between the hills', a carryover from the pagans of Arabia.
Yes or no? Islam has massive aninism.
Yes or no? Islam prays five times a day, borrowed from the Zoroastrians.
Yes or no? The call to worship from towers, borrowed from the Zoroastrians.
Yes or no? Muhammad used to 'wash his feet' by waving his hand, and all his sins supposedly disappeared and he was then pure and 'sinless'.
Yes or no? Muhammad said the devil lives in your nose, so blow it if you wake up at night.

Very simple. Yes or no. Tell me that it isn't a fact that Islam worships a meteorite and uses pagan circumambulation to do it. Go ahead .... tell me how that's purely monotheistic.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
The views of somebody who insults a number of Christian/Islamic/Jewish figures.....is worthless.

You are running away again. Address the FACTS (not 'views') as presented. Does Islam worship a meteorite and use pagan circumambulation to do so. Answer ... yes. And that's not monotheism.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
somebody who insults a number of Christian/Islamic/Jewish figures.

TRUTH is truth. It's not 'insults'.

TRUTH - Moses was a mass murderer. He took slaves. He gave his soldiers pre-teen and teenage girls as sex slaves. He slaughtered children. That's not 'insults. That's the truth. You claim scripture doesn't lie ... so then ... this is the TRUTH. Acknowledge it.

MURDER - Exodus 2:11-15 In the course of time Moses grew up. Then he went to see his own people and watched them suffering under forced labor. He saw a Hebrew, one of his own people, being beaten by an Egyptian. 12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand.

ORDERS VIRGIN SEX SLAVES FOR SOLDIERS - AND ORDERS MASS MURDER - Numbers 31:18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, keep for yourselves.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Why do christians even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly insult important Jewish figures such as Moses...as we see here? Care to clear that up for us?

Why do Muslims even bother seeking affinity with Jews when they openly say they 'can't love them' like you did?

I wasnt seeking affinity with them. Muslims sinply acknowledge that the Jews are as monotheistic as we are. Its called being honest.

I know you may not answer but I put this here for the sake of monotheism.
No. You are wrong. You are constantly attacking Christians and You say that Jews are monotheists as muslims. No You are wrong. Of course Christianity is respected in Islam however Islam offers them to say nothing against monotheism.
But you are constantly saying that Jews are as monotheist as muslims. Shall I show you their monotheism !

The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. -Genesis 6-6

So Jews say God makes mistake and he regrets for his mistakes. Is your monotheism like this.

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. -Exodus 34:5

So Jews say God has a place and he walks. and He comes down the cloud. Is your monotheism like this.

The LORD descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up -Exodus 19:20

So again Jews believe God has a place and He descends and ascends.

So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered.
Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.

So Jews say humanity can wrestle with God and overcome him. Is your monotheism like this.

Shall I show you a minority of muslims who their monotheism is like Jews !
Do you know Ibn Taymiyyah.
Shall I show you the monotheism of him !
He says : There is no evidence that God is not a body.
He says : God has Curly hair and we can see God in the sleep.

Is your monotheism like this !
Shall I show you the true monotheism.
Ali ibn Abi Talib said :

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks. The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence. The Creation of the Universe He initiated creation most initially and commenced it originally, without undergoing reflection, without making use of any experiment, without innovating any movement, and without experiencing any aspiration of mind. He allotted all things their times, put together their variations gave them their properties, and determined their features knowing them before creating them, realising fully their limits and confines and appreciating their propensities and intricacies.

Saying that "God Is One" is not enough, saying that "God is one" is not the end of monotheism. It is just the first. There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has a body or He has place or can be seen as a minority of muslims believe this the same as Jews
Monotheism has a deep. very deep meaning.

@maes.....

You say that Jews are monotheists as muslims

In the sense their concept of God is that He is absolutely One, has no partners and defintely didn't become a man as christians believe. Yes, their book has a few ''issues'' but that is a different matter altogether. They have wrong ideas about how God deals with people but their monotheism is sound.

@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

@maes..... Also Jews, the ones I spoke to.... dont believe that God Himself came down to earth...rather He sent angels and forces that appeared as men, fire, pillar of fire, cloud. In the bible there are instances where an angel appears and speaks like God. Do jews confuse angels with God? No...they understand it as meaning the angels simply were relaying a message of God...like a mouth piece. The jews are not confused about the Oneness of God.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

I did not say God has a body. I meant those who say God is one but they think He has a body, they Have not understand monotheism perfectly. And it is evident that Koran says "God is like nothing is like God". thank you for your attention.

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

I did not say God has a body. I meant those who say God is one but they think He has a body, they Have not understand monotheism perfectly.

Jews dont believe God has a body. Their books say things like God' ''hands'' and ''wings''. They are either metaphors....or are outright mistakes. But Jews don't preach that God has body parts...or that he became a man who was born from a woman.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

I did not say God has a body. I meant those who say God is one but they think He has a body, they Have not understand monotheism perfectly.

Jews dont believe God has a body. Their books say things like God' ''hands'' and ''wings''. They are either metaphors....or are outright mistakes. But Jews don't preach that God has body parts...or that he became a man who was born from a woman.

So Jews believe that their book has mistakes. Because wrestling of God with Jacob and How Jacob overcame God can not be a metaphor !

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You still are avoiding directly answering the questions I gave. Show me how worship of a meteorite and running circles around a cube building are monotheistic and not pagan ... considering that these things came directly from the pagans good luck with that. You've signed on and seen the thread since those were posted ... so you are avoiding them.

yes or no ... Muslims run circles around the pagan cube building.
yes or no ... Muslims worship the meteorite
yes or no ... Muslims run between the hills as the pagans did before them.

yes or no ... Moses ordered the slaughter of innocent people, including children, and he ordered that preteen and teenage girls be kept by his troops as sex slaves.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: maes2
Of Course we are all manifestations of God. But the most perfect humans like Jesus, Moses and Muhammed they are the best manifestations of God ! specially Muhammed

That's rather Buddhist. Which is fine. But I totally disagree with you on the 'most perfect humans' including Moses and Muhammad. Moses killed people and took slaves. Muhammed murdered and raided caravans and lied about 'divine revelations'.

That's just the bs story you have heard from uninformed Western perspective. The entire Islamic Barbarian/Colonist/Murderous thug thing was a Western idea and nothing more. There is mounting evidence that it is nothing more than a lie and the Moon God thing has also been proven a complete hoax also.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n
yes or no ... Muslims run circles around the pagan cube building.

Yes or No ... Christians worship a Man as God and believe God is Three in One?

yes or no ... Muslims worship the meteorite

No

Moslems do not worship the Black Stone, but only show special reverence and veneration for its dignity and they kiss it only after the example of the Prophet and to keep their Covenant with God to obey His Will and avoid His disobedience. (Tabbarah, The Spirit of Islam, p. 173).

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

I did not say God has a body. I meant those who say God is one but they think He has a body, they Have not understand monotheism perfectly.

Jews dont believe God has a body. Their books say things like God' ''hands'' and ''wings''. They are either metaphors....or are outright mistakes. But Jews don't preach that God has body parts...or that he became a man who was born from a woman.

Oh yes, God has a body, but it isn't corporeal like yours or mine.

God had eyes, He sees. God has ears, He hears. God has a mouth, He speaks. God has a face, but no man has seen it. God has a body that sits on a throne, His head bears a crown.

God is a man, God is a fire, God is a Spirit, God has a mind. And we are made in the image and likeness of God, and if we are, then what else is our body form based on?

MADE in the IMAGE and LIKENESS.

God rides on the clouds. God is Rock and Strong Tower. God is a Refuge and our Shield. But most of all, God is a Father, one that you deny that God can be, your Quran says that God is not a Father, and yet the Torah DOES.

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: maes2

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
@maes....

There is no difference between saying God is three and saying that God has body.

I'll go with the statement ''don't say three''. And God has a body? Cite the verse from the Koran please.

I did not say God has a body. I meant those who say God is one but they think He has a body, they Have not understand monotheism perfectly.

Jews dont believe God has a body. Their books say things like God' ''hands'' and ''wings''. They are either metaphors....or are outright mistakes. But Jews don't preach that God has body parts...or that he became a man who was born from a woman.

So Jews believe that their book has mistakes. Because wrestling of God with Jacob and How Jacob overcame God can not be a metaphor !

Actually, Jacob didn't overcome, Jacob wrestled all night but refused to let go until he was blessed. But his hip was put out of place. In that lesson, Jacob overcame himself, that through wrestling with God, like we all do, we learn to hold on until the day breaks. It's the blessing we are wrestling for, not to overcome God because no one overcomes God.

a reply to: WarminIndy

. . . we learn to hold on until the day breaks. It's the blessing we are wrestling for . . .

You have to think that the blessing was a good outcome for what was bound to happen that morning, a confrontation between two armies.
A story like this wound be useful when Israel (in the late kingdom times) was involved in wars caused by attacks from neighboring countries who they could consider being at least distantly related to.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

. . . we learn to hold on until the day breaks. It's the blessing we are wrestling for . . .

You have to think that the blessing was a good outcome for what was bound to happen that morning, a confrontation between two armies.
A story like this wound be useful when Israel (in the late kingdom times) was involved in wars caused by attacks from neighboring countries who they could consider being at least distantly related to.

JmDewey, it was Jacob and his brother Esau reconciling. Yes, they both had armies, but they weren't actually armies, they were basically security forces because both were still herders. I wouldn't count them as real armies.

The next day, Jacob apologized to Esau, but Esau already was set to forgive. That was a story of reconciliation between brothers.