Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

a reply to: Akragon

Except revelation is from John of Patmos, not Jesus as it lays claim....

So it really doesn't matter what revelation says...

Why would it be any less from Jesus than the gospels?
And who is "John of Patmos" but some way to deprecate the book, as if it wasn't the Apostle John?

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Akragon

Except revelation is from John of Patmos, not Jesus as it lays claim....

So it really doesn't matter what revelation says...

Why would it be any less from Jesus than the gospels?
And who is "John of Patmos" but some way to deprecate the book, as if it wasn't the Apostle John?

Just specifying... It was written by a guy on Patmos island named John...

It pretty plain to see revelation wasn't Jesus... theres nothing in the book that reads like the gospels, or even has the same ideas or attitude as he had while he was alive...

It was just another apocalypse in a time where that style of writing was predominate... It wasn't even accepted by the church for 300+ years later...

a reply to: Akragon

It pretty plain to see revelation wasn't Jesus... theres nothing in the book that reads like the gospels, or even has the same ideas or attitude as he had while he was alive...

Why would it have to be like the gospels?
The Gospel of John is just called that, it isn't because John wrote it.
It never says in John who wrote it.
It was a disciple but it didn't have to be specifically one of the original twelve.
Or it could be because John (the gospel called John) never names more than five of the twelve.
Jesus is in Revelation, giving John the revealed reality that Jesus wanted him to have.
It was the heavenly Jesus, not the one who we know from the gospels, who was in the form of a servant.

It wasn't even accepted by the church for 300+ years later...

That is wrong.
There were a lot of books accepted by the church that didn't make the cut when it was decided to create a New Testament canon.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Why would it have to be like the gospels?

Simply because they are unique in the way they present things... meaning one can see that all of them were speaking about the words that the same man spoke... the linguistic style of all four are the same... revelation isn't even close

In fact the only book I would say that's even close would be Thomas...

That is wrong.
There were a lot of books accepted by the church that didn't make the cut when it was decided to create a New Testament canon.

Well I don't know about that... revelation wasn't in the first creation of the canon of the bible, yet the rest of the books were... so which church were they accepted by? Certianly not what would have been considered "orthodox"...

Though there were many competing sects of Christianity back in the early centuries of the religion....

a reply to: FlyersFan

No dude. It's what Muslims do. It's all over the TV. The whole world can see it.
Quit with the Robert Morey deflection crap.

Its not a deflection. Robert Morey IS the guy who came up with/popularized the nonsensical theories that people like yourself love to parrot over and over again. Even Chick tracts repeat the same nonsense.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
All I've seen from you are opinions and copy pastes from biased sites.

WHAT are you talking about . All I quoted was the bible itself. Answer the question .... We see the Muslims on TV worshipping a meteorite ... we see them running circles around a cubed building like the pagans of that area did ... we see them using the Hubal crescent and star on their flag and on top of their places of worship. WHAT is 'monotheistic' AND MORE LIKE THE JEWS (which is the topic of this thread) about that?

warminindy and maybe other christians, whether or not they would describe Moses as a ''murderer'' and ''sex slaver''.

No ... YOU answer the question ... YOU .... read the scripture.
Does it or does it not say that Moses mass murdered and ordered sex slaves.
YOU answer it. Stop playing deflection games.
Here are the quotes from THE BIBLE ... not 'anti muslim sites' ... THE BIBLE ...

MURDER - Exodus 2:11-15 In the course of time Moses grew up. Then he went to see his own people and watched them suffering under forced labor. He saw a Hebrew, one of his own people, being beaten by an Egyptian. 12 He looked all around, and when he didn’t see anyone, he beat the Egyptian to death and hid the body in the sand.

ORDERS VIRGIN SEX SLAVES FOR SOLDIERS - AND ORDERS MASS MURDER - Numbers 31:18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, keep for yourselves.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Robert Morey IS the guy ....

I don't know who he is ... I don't think I"ve ever quoted him .... so stop deflecting. Answer the very simple question .... We see it on tv and don't have to get any information from this Robert Morey dude you are so paranoid about .... Muslims worshipping a meteorite and run circles around it like the pagans and run between the hills like the pagans and have Hubals crescent on top of the mosques. You claim Islam is monotheistic 'like the jews' (which is the topic of this thread) ... HOW is any of that supposedly monotheistic? That's not information from your 'robert morey' ... that's information that's out there everywhere and on the news and being done by muslims themselves.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Christians are infatuated with Jews, as shown in this thread. Some of them even like cosplaying as Jews and calling themselves ''Jews''.

Dude .. you are the one going around screaming that Muslims and Jews are the ones that are alike. And Islam (and you) are constantly trying to claim ancient Jewish 'prophets' as your own .. saying Jesus was a Muslim and Abraham was a Muslim, and Abraham built the Kaaba (which he didn't). Comeon .... be realistic about who is 'infatuated' with the ancient Jews (which is the topic of this thread) . It's muslims.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Dude .. you are the one going around screaming that Muslims and Jews are the ones that are alike.

Thats just acknowledging the truth. Surely, you are familiar with that concept.

Comeon .... be realistic about who is 'infatuated' with the ancient Jews. .

Given how christians have formed zionist organizations, claim "they stand with Israel", think of the Jews being the chosen people and and unconditionally support them despite Jews insulting Jesus and Mary....I''d say its the Christians who are infatuated with Jews. Both ancient and modern. Some Christians even call themselves ''Jews'', dress like Jews and celebrate Jewish holidays.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
I''d say its the Christians who are infatuated with Jews.

And yet it's muslims who go around trying to say Abraham was a muslim and built the Kaaba (he didn't) and that Jesus was Muslim and that Moses was muslim. Comeon ... be realistic.

And since you are back on ... answer the questions .....

Did those bible verses say that Moses ordered mass murder and sex slaves?
yes or no? If there is any honesty in you, you'll answer yes. So which is it?

Answer the question ... the source is the TV, and not that guy you keep whining about .... we see Muslims worshipping a meteorite; we see them running circles around a cubed building like the pagans did; we see them running between the hills like the pagans did; we see them with the Hubal crescent and star above their mosques ... how is that monotheistic. This is the third or fourth page I've asked that question. You've seen it. Stop deflecting. Tell us all how it's supposedly monotheistic and 'more like the jews' .... which is the topic of this thread.

a reply to: FlyersFan

And yet it's muslims who go around trying to say Abraham was a muslim .....Jesus was Muslim.........Moses was muslim.

Muslim = one who submitters to God.
No Jew would deny that Abraham, Jesus and Moses were all submitters to God.

the source is the TV, and not that guy you keep whining about .... we see Muslims worshipping a meteorite

1. We see muslims worshiping towards the Kaaba..not the rock or the structure itself. No different from Daniel praying towrds Jerusalem.

2. Fraud Robert Morey IS the original source of the meteorite claims.

If you don't accept Chick tracts as a source on what Catholics believe, then you will understand why I don't consider Robert Morey as a source on what Muslims believe.

If you reject the claims made by Chick tracts, then you will have to reject Robert Moreys ideas as well. Because Chick tracts also parrot Robert Moreys claims regarding Islam.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Muslim = one who submitters to God.
No Jew would deny that Abraham, Jesus and Moses were all submitters to God.

Muslims are trying to claim them as their own prophets. They are not.
They were Hebrew. Jewish. Not Islamic.

We see muslims worshiping towards the Kaaba..not the rock or the structure itself.

Aren't they doing the exact same thing that you complained about the Christians doing with the date of Christmas? The muslims incorporated pagan practices and symbols into their rituals in order to bring the pagans in ... just like the Christians fixed the date of Christmas around the time of the pagan solstice in order to bring the pagans in. Same/same.

2. Fraud Robert Morey IS the original source of the meteorite claims.

There is no 'original source' for the Meteorite information. Everyone can see all over the TV and the newspapers ... and the Muslims have been doing this for 1400 years. It's been out longer than this Robert Morey fella who has been around only in the past 15 years.

So all this speaks to the topic of the thread .... Israel and the church .... again, how is this 'monotheistic' like the jews?

originally posted by: Akragon
Just specifying... It was written by a guy on Patmos island named John...

It pretty plain to see revelation wasn't Jesus... theres nothing in the book that reads like the gospels, or even has the same ideas or attitude as he had while he was alive...

It was just another apocalypse in a time where that style of writing was predominate... It wasn't even accepted by the church for 300+ years later...

Church had no way unless to recognized it. What happened in Fatima was in public. Church could not deny it however they altered it. Like how they are mistranslating the books and give the mistranslations to the poor people who can not reach the original texts.

Some day Jesus will eradicate their monarchy of lie. It is no far.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
If you reject the claims made by Chick tracts, then you will have to reject Robert Moreys ideas as well. Because Chick tracts also parrot Robert Moreys claims regarding Islam.

I had to go google up this Robert Morey fella. He's an extremist. The guy tried to write some anti-Islam stuff in the early 2000 time frame. So what? The information about Islam has been out longer than that ... about 1400 years longer. Scholars have been writing about the meteorite and the pagan influences in Islam for hundreds of years.

So again ... referring back to the topic of the thread ... the information shows the pagan practices in Islam and so Islam is not 'the church close to Judaism'.

Lul funny, a christian calling Muslims and Islam paganistic

I guess you never had one of these then...

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Lul funny, a christian calling Muslims and Islam paganistic

I said both are. It's the Muslim saying that Islam isn't paganistic. It's very clear that both Islam and Christianity have incorporated pagan rituals into their religions. To deny that is absurd.

Sanhedrin Rabbi Abraham is a Historian from Israel. He gave a talk in Turkey About Similarities Between Islam & Judaism, . He agrees that muslim God is the same as jewish God . The jewish where called Muslims and Judaism where called Islam .

Orthodox Jewish Rabbi acknowledges Islam.

"Muslims and Jews are perfect monotheists...they worship the same God that we do''.

There are plenty of other videos where Jews, even Rabbis say the same thing. This pretty much destroys the laughable Christian claims that Islam is pagan.

I guess this whole Judaism, Christianity and Islam thing is one weird love triangle.
Christians love the Jews.
The Jews are like ''ewww. get away from me polytheist'' and then turn around and acknowledge Islam.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n
Digging up one old guy that agrees with you isn't answering the question. Tell me how worship of a meteorite; running circles around a cubed building like the pagans did; bowing to a building with Hubals crescent on it; and running between the hills like the pagans did is 'monotheistic'.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
This pretty much destroys the laughable Christian claims that Islam is pagan.

Only in your dreams. Address the paganism in Islam that I have brought forward. And no .... Christians aren't polytheist. No matter how many times you try to claim it. Seriously dude ... read the information provided and actually address the questions for a change.