Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I wouldn't count them as real armies.

You would really be just as dead, if you were attacked by them.

but Esau already was set to forgive.

Jacob did not know that until they actually met.

The blessing was that things turned out well.
You know there is this well known saying about war, about things being left to chance.

The point I was trying to get at is that these things could have been made up to work as war time propaganda, to encourage the soldiers to face battle with confidence, that their god was going to be on their side.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

I wouldn't count them as real armies.

You would really be just as dead, if you were attacked by them.

but Esau already was set to forgive.

Jacob did not know that until they actually met.

The blessing was that things turned out well.
You know there is this well known saying about war, about things being left to chance.

The point I was trying to get at is that these things could have been made up to work as war time propaganda, to encourage the soldiers to face battle with confidence, that their god was going to be on their side.

Both men had all their wives, children and grandchildren with them. I don't think that soldiers would be encouraged to engage in a battle with all their families present.

But we can use any story from anything to give inspiration, you could do the same thing with Rocky or Rambo.

a reply to: WarminIndy

But we can use any story from anything to give inspiration, you could do the same thing with Rocky or Rambo.

But those stories are not in the Bible.
What I'm trying to say is that these stories were made retroactively.
There would have been practical reasons to have such stories, like I said, where there were real wars going on that threatened the kingdom.
A favorite device for the biblical writers of that time was to go back to the character that the kingdom was supposedly named after, Israel, formerly known as Jacob (both that are not real proper names but descriptive terms), to create allegories that could then be applied to their own situation, as a country.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You still are avoiding directly answering the questions I gave. Show me how worship of a meteorite and running circles around a cube building are monotheistic and not pagan ... considering that these things came directly from the pagans good luck with that. You've signed on and seen the thread since those were posted ...

Stop getting your ''facts'' from sites like answering islam dotcom. Until them you will be placed in the same basket as those who...for example, posts material from anti-Christian sites claiming ''Jesus is Mithras'' and screaming ''FACT!''. It makes them look pitiful.

Oh yes, God has a body, but it isn't corporeal like yours or mine.

a 'non-corporeal body' is a self contradicting term. Like 'freezing fire'.

But most of all, God is a Father, one that you deny that God can be, your Quran says that God is not a Father, and yet the Torah DOES.

The OT also says God was a ''husband'' to the Israelites. If you do not take that literally, then by the SAME standard Torah calls God ''Father'' in an absolutely non-literal way...not as a father begetting sons, which is denied by Muslins.

I am thankful to God for all of you, that so many people are interested in this topic. It comes as no suprise, for I assume you people are like me, yearning for truth, love, purpose, healing, and understanding in meaningful things. Confronted with our inevitable mortality we all ponder what awaits us after death. I do not know, for I have not reached of age, but I assume that it is quite natural to mourn the loss of our vitality, the deterioration of our bodies, and the gradual withering away of the Human person over time, as a flower in the field. We do not like the idea of growing old and dying, and assumably, for the wise, there is a hesitation, an anxiety, a fear evoked by our ignorance, for who has died and come back to tell it?

This is actually a good question to ask. Two examples come to mind, the widows son and Jesus Christ, chronologically speaking.

May I ask who actually read the short discourse, and what are your thoughts?

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You still are avoiding directly answering the questions I gave. Show me how worship of a meteorite and running circles around a cube building are monotheistic and not pagan ... considering that these things came directly from the pagans good luck with that. You've signed on and seen the thread since those were posted ...

Stop getting your ''facts'' from sites like answering islam dotcom. Until them you will be placed in the same basket as those who...for example, posts material from anti-Christian sites claiming ''Jesus is Mithras'' and screaming ''FACT!''. It makes them look pitiful.

I never use AnsweringIslam for my posts here, but I do know Sam Shamoun.

I know how to find what you guys are saying yourself. But here's the thing, you guys have twisted yours so much through taqquiyah that even your imams are confused. That's why they offer it in Arabic,that you have to know Arabic and the only way a person can understand is if you tell them what the Arabic says, then how would a person know if you are actually telling the truth? For a non-Arab speaker, and you saying "You have to read it in Arabic, so let me read it for you", how do you prove you are telling the truth?

And the only reason your side doesn't like AnsweringIslam is because you guys keep losing debates to Sam Shamoun, who does speak Arabic. That's the only reason you told FlyersFan not to use it, but the truth is, AnsweringIslam actually exposes what your Quran is saying.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Oh yes, God has a body, but it isn't corporeal like yours or mine.

a 'non-corporeal body' is a self contradicting term. Like 'freezing fire'.

But most of all, God is a Father, one that you deny that God can be, your Quran says that God is not a Father, and yet the Torah DOES.

The OT also says God was a ''husband'' to the Israelites. If you do not take that literally, then by the SAME standard Torah calls God ''Father'' in an absolutely non-literal way...not as a father begetting sons, which is denied by Muslins.

Hey, it's not my fault that your religion is so literalist that you can't imagine God being anything, but then again, you aren't supposed to imagine what allah looks like. So if you aren't even supposed to imagine what allah looks like, then how does Islam allow description of allah in the first place?

Let's go through some of them. Did Mohammed imagine allah as this?

AS-SAMÎ' The All-Hearing

Does allah hear without ears? Body part.

AL-BASÎR The All-Seeing

Does allah see without eyes? Body part.

AL-KHABÎR The All-Aware

How does allah think without a mind residing in a brain, on his head? Body part.

AL-MUSAWWIR The Bestower of form, The Shaper

How does allah create without hands? Body parts.

Allah doesn't have a mouth, so how does he speak?

Allah's hand is above their hands.( 48:10 )

Allah has hands, body parts.

One whom I created with my two hands.( 38:75 )

again, body parts.

Are they literal hands or is this a figurative statement? Be careful, if it is mere figurative then that means the Quran is allegorical and can't be taken as real.

And here is one from a Muslim apologist about the Sunnah

Were those who insist on accepting nothing but the literal meaning of the Qur'ân and refuse all figurative interpretation to take this verse at face value, it would have to mean that the hand that gave allegiance to the Companions was that of Allah not that of the Prophet, may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him. Those endowed with reason, however, will readily understand that because the Prophet is Allah's representative on earth, swearing allegiance to him is in reality swearing allegiance to Allah, and the Prophet's hand represents Allah's Hand, just as the Black Stone represents it, but, in the Prophet's case, eminently more deservedly.

So then, let me ask this, can the entire Quran and allah be taken as figurative or allegorical? If there are no limits on the allegorical placed on allah, then allah could be completely allegorical.

a reply to: mrphilosophias

We do not like the idea of growing old and dying, and assumably, for the wise, there is a hesitation, an anxiety, a fear evoked by our ignorance, for who has died and come back to tell it? This is actually a good question to ask. Two examples come to mind, the widows son and Jesus Christ, chronologically speaking.

I said it to our friend WarminIndy. It is written in Gospels that Jesus said these sentences on the cross.
Look at this ::
"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which means (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) Matthew 27:46.
I never believe that that man on the cross was Jesus or God. Jesus and men of God never say such things. Martyrdom is the love of men of God. They do not fear and they rely on their God like Abraham, like saint Peter, like John the baptist, like Muhammed, like Ali and like Hussain.
Yes of course we do fear death because we have done bad things ! We should do something for ourselves before death. May God gives us the reward of Martyrs.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n

Oh yes, God has a body, but it isn't corporeal like yours or mine.

a 'non-corporeal body' is a self contradicting term. Like 'freezing fire'.

But most of all, God is a Father, one that you deny that God can be, your Quran says that God is not a Father, and yet the Torah DOES.

The OT also says God was a ''husband'' to the Israelites. If you do not take that literally, then by the SAME standard Torah calls God ''Father'' in an absolutely non-literal way...not as a father begetting sons, which is denied by Muslins.

Hey, it's not my fault that your religion is so literalist that you can't imagine God being anything, but then again, you aren't supposed to imagine what allah looks like. So if you aren't even supposed to imagine what allah looks like, then how does Islam allow description of allah in the first place?

Let's go through some of them. Did Mohammed imagine allah as this?

AS-SAMÎ' The All-Hearing

Does allah hear without ears? Body part.

Very good question. Islam is not literal. a minority of muslims really think God has hands. or legs. or ears. This is because Muslims have forgotten the true successor of their prophet, Ali. The same as Christians who have forgotten the successor of Jesus, Saint Peter and they say Jesus was God. So I invite us to take a look at description of God from mouth of the forgotten successor of Muhammad, Ali :

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks. The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him. Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence. The Creation of the Universe He initiated creation most initially and commenced it originally, without undergoing reflection, without making use of any experiment, without innovating any movement, and without experiencing any aspiration of mind. He allotted all things their times, put together their variations gave them their properties, and determined their features knowing them before creating them, realising fully their limits and confines and appreciating their propensities and intricacies.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
Stop getting your ''facts'' from sites like answering islam dotcom.

Dude ... I posted absolutely NOTHING about a source. I asked questions. Answer them and stop deflecting.

Do Muslims worship the meteorite like the pagans did? Do they walk in circles around the cube building like the pagans did? Do they run between the hills like the pagans did? Do they have the crescent and star for their symbol like the pagans did? Did Muhammad say that the devil lives in a mans nose? Comeon .. simple questions. Answer them and tell us how any of that is monotheistic.

originally posted by: sk0rpi0n
a 'non-corporeal body' is a self contradicting term.

Spirits are non-corporeal. The human spirit, when freed from the organic body at death, will be non-corporeal. 'Body' doesn't have to be flesh and blood. It just refers to a placeholder in space and/or time.

Corporeal = corpse .... material .... tangible.

Spirits = nonmaterial ... nontangible ....

A non-corporeal body means not material or tangible.

It's very simple.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You said I was lying when I said Moses was a mass murderer who gave his soldiers preteen and teenage girls as sex slaves. I gave the scripture quotes showing that is EXACTLY what he did. Wanna' take back your statement that I wasn't telling the truth? Wanna' admit that Moses did indeed commit mass murder and was a sex slaver?? The truth is there. Just admit it.

originally posted by: maes2
a reply to: mrphilosophias

We do not like the idea of growing old and dying, and assumably, for the wise, there is a hesitation, an anxiety, a fear evoked by our ignorance, for who has died and come back to tell it? This is actually a good question to ask. Two examples come to mind, the widows son and Jesus Christ, chronologically speaking.

I said it to our friend WarminIndy. It is written in Gospels that Jesus said these sentences on the cross.
Look at this ::
"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which means (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) Matthew 27:46.
I never believe that that man on the cross was Jesus or God. Jesus and men of God never say such things. Martyrdom is the love of men of God. They do not fear and they rely on their God like Abraham, like saint Peter, like John the baptist, like Muhammed, like Ali and like Hussain.
Yes of course we do fear death because we have done bad things ! We should do something for ourselves before death. May God gives us the reward of Martyrs.

That should have been me. I'm a wretched sinner. That should have been me. Thank you Jesus, for by His blood we are redeemed.

Consider the Jewish prophecy of the suffering servant. Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53, Douay-rheims 1899.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:

3 Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth.

8 He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him.

9 And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth.

10 And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

11 Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

This prophecy would have been a bit mysterious at the time it was written, about 800 years before Christ, but in hindsight we can see that this is a clear testimony to Jesus, the Messiah of the line of King David, for He is the Paschal Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Consider the blood on the door post and Passover, Yom Kippur - the day of atonement; the need for temple sacrifice to atone for sins; these things are allusions and foreshadowing of the Christ Jesus. He is the True Atoning Sacrifice, the unblemished victim, the suffering servant. The best part of all is Jesus is not dead. He is Risen! By His blood we are saved! Glory be to God!

Do you know what the difference is between the Pharisee's and Sadducees of Jesus' time? The pharisee's believed in the resurrection from the dead. The Sadducees did not. Their own prophecies and sacred scriptures bear witness to Him clearly, yet they did not recognize Him. I hope some who take their inheritance in the God of their Ancestors seriously will be edified by these things. To really consider the story of Jesus the Christ. Who do you say He is?

The world lies. God is Truth. Jesus is the Son of the Living God, He is Emmanuel, and verily, God incarnate, and He alone has the words that lead to eternal life. Check it out...

a reply to: mrphilosophias

Consider the blood on the door post and Passover, Yom Kippur - the day of atonement; the need for temple sacrifice to atone for sins; these things are allusions and foreshadowing of the Christ Jesus. He is the True Atoning Sacrifice, the unblemished victim, the suffering servant.

If these were, then it might seem odd that it never mentions this in the New Testament.
I would say that these were existing things that people knew well, so made good fodder from which to make metaphorical allusions to, to make points that would be otherwise difficult to explain.

Obviously Jesus did, something, but what it was is a little difficult to explain.
Having things to make allegorical allusions to helps.
Mashing them all together doesn't help.

originally posted by: maes2

Very good question. Islam is not literal. a minority of muslims really think God has hands. or legs. or ears. This is because Muslims have forgotten the true successor of their prophet, Ali. The same as Christians who have forgotten the successor of Jesus, Saint Peter and they say Jesus was God. So I invite us to take a look at description of God from mouth of the forgotten successor of Muhammad, Ali :

Is this what makes the difference between Sunni and Shia?

Peter was a disciple, Paul was an apostle, but when it comes to the Gospel, neither of them are better or worse than the other. As far as successor, no. There was no successor to Jesus Christ.

Peter, as the first bishop of Rome, was not as successor, but as the one who worked with the early church only to organize it, that's all. I don't understand this concept of Peter as successor, that's not how Christianity is.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Christianity is one body, with one head, Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as Peter or Paul as successors. We are made partakers together, in the same body.

1 Corinthians 12: 1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2You know that you were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as you were led.

3Therefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of workings, but it is the same God who works all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man for profit.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But in all these works that one and same Spirit, dividing to every man individually as he will.

Many Members Make up one Church Body

12For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

This is the true baptism, the mystical communion and union of Christ and His church. One body, one Lord. I say Jesus is Lord and stand not accursed, because Christ is the Head, He is living now, as head of His church and His body. He descended (died) and ascended (resurrected). There is no such thing as a successor, all those who are His, are all members of the same body.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You said I was lying when I said Moses was a mass murderer who gave his soldiers preteen and teenage girls as sex slaves. I gave the scripture quotes showing that is EXACTLY what he did. Wanna' take back your statement that I wasn't telling the truth? Wanna' admit that Moses did indeed commit mass murder and was a sex slaver?? The truth is there. Just admit it.

Which is why Moses wasn't the Messiah.

originally posted by: maes2
a reply to: mrphilosophias

We do not like the idea of growing old and dying, and assumably, for the wise, there is a hesitation, an anxiety, a fear evoked by our ignorance, for who has died and come back to tell it? This is actually a good question to ask. Two examples come to mind, the widows son and Jesus Christ, chronologically speaking.

I said it to our friend WarminIndy. It is written in Gospels that Jesus said these sentences on the cross.
Look at this ::
"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which means (My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?) Matthew 27:46.
I never believe that that man on the cross was Jesus or God. Jesus and men of God never say such things. Martyrdom is the love of men of God. They do not fear and they rely on their God like Abraham, like saint Peter, like John the baptist, like Muhammed, like Ali and like Hussain.
Yes of course we do fear death because we have done bad things ! We should do something for ourselves before death. May God gives us the reward of Martyrs.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22.

Psalm 22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Read this, it was the prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion. Until a people that shall be born, that's me, I am of this people who declare His righteousness, a man you scorn and a man you despise, the Man that was pierced for our iniquity and bruised for our transgression.

Isaiah 53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And if you don't believe it was Jesus

Psalm 110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Jesus.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Read this, it was the prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion. Until a people that shall be born, that's me, I am of this people who declare His righteousness, a man you scorn and a man you despise, the Man that was pierced for our iniquity and bruised for our transgression.

It was a parable of Israel.
It was after the fact pressed into service as a convenient allegorical anchor to try to describe how Jesus saves us.
It was by his becoming one of us.
It lends divinity to Jesus, that he had to step down from heaven to take our deserved treatment as a sinner though he himself never sinned.

Apparently Muslims do not believe in fallen angels because they don't think that angels have free will.
That probably is in there in order to not think that Jesus could have been some sort of angelic being previous to the incarnation, because Jesus wouldn't have been faced with the possibility of choosing to sin.
That would prevent Jesus from being a savior because he could never be able to represent us to God, not being really like us, if he was divine.