Israel and the Church, in History and for Contemporary Times. To be continued LORD willing.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

given the context of the conversation, its clear I was referring to the geographical region Mohammad operated in.

And he did that....how? By raiding other tribes' villages and killing people and FORCING them to agree with him.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: sk0rpi0n



You've been advised that you know nothing about Jews (as per WarmInIndy,,

I have been ''Advised''? Thats rich. I have only seen a bunch of opinions, all of which I have responded to, as required. You haven't contributed anything towards the thread subject, besides emotional banter and opinion. So change that or stay out of other peoples conversations.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Quote any part of Islam/The Qu'ran/Hadith that says the afterlife is one big orgy (Or 70 something virgins are waiting blah blah)? I'm really interested to see not only where you have got this from but where the Muslims who believe this got it from also. I have read the Qu'ran numerous times and never mentioned is an afterlife sex party or virgins.

The only mention of a Virgin is the mother of Jesus.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

The issue I have with the Islam bashing is the lack of evidence from the scripture itself. This leads me to believe that there is no evidence as to what most of the islamaphobes continually try to push. The ideas and so-called proofs these "reliable sources" apparently provide is nothing more than an easy way to scare off any potential interest in the religion though the things which are being said and the accusations are in fact completely false.

The only reliable source is the Qu'ran and the Ahadith. If people cannot draw evidence to back their accusations from these two writings, there argument is null and has no legitimacy. I'm not just saying this about Islamaphobes either, this could apply to many Muslims also who have invented a counterfeit style of Islam which leads people to believe what they do when it comes to "Moons Gods, 72 Virgins" etc.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n

You haven't contributed anything towards the thread subject, besides emotional banter and opinion.

Haven't I?

So change that or stay out of other peoples conversations.

Any conversation on this board is open to whomever wants to contribute.


And please, how are you contributing anything aside from "emotional banter and (insulting) opinion"?

a reply to: DarknStormy

The only reliable source is the Qu'ran and the Ahadith. If people cannot draw evidence to back their accusations from these two writings, there argument is null and has no legitimacy. I'm not just saying this about Islamaphobes either, this could apply to many Muslims also who have invented a counterfeit style of Islam which leads people to believe what they do when it comes to "Moons Gods, 72 Virgins" etc.

These two things contradict each other.
You are just admitting that those documents are not always used as a guideline, but we need to follow those to supposedly know how to define Islam (in order to consider any potential criticism).

originally posted by: jmdewey60
These two things contradict each other.

How so?

You are just admitting that those documents are not always used as a guideline, but we need to follow those to supposedly know how to define Islam (in order to consider any potential criticism).

Yeah, because the false ideas of humans ( in this case, corrupt Muslims ) are not the teachings of Islam, the teachings of the Qu'ran are. And as I said before, the Qu'ran does not mention 72 Virgins or the worship of a Moon God. If it does, point it out to me and then I may agree with the accusations put forward by Islam haters.

Even if Muslims are worshipping Idols today, does the Qu'ran tell them to worship idols? No so it's not the Qu'ran that is the problem, it's the ignorance of men.

a reply to: DarknStormy

No so it's not the Qu'ran that is the problem, it's the ignorance of men.

But there is a problem and that was my point.
I try to deal with a problem I see among some Christians who I don't think follow the New Testament correctly theologically.
That does not mean that someone outside of Christianity does not have a right to criticize Christianity based on those wrong (in my opinion of what the New Testament says) theologies.
You make judgments based on what you see being done and said on the ground, rather than a hypothetical ideal that most ignore or deliberately distort.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

And please, how are you contributing anything........

My posts are on the thread for anyone to read, review and respond to. As for you, I don't even know you on these forums and I sure dont need to justify my posts to you. Either address the subject matter directly or else stop wasting my time.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: sk0rpi0n

The issue I have with the Islam bashing is the lack of evidence from the scripture itself. This leads me to believe that there is no evidence as to what most of the islamaphobes continually try to push. The ideas and so-called proofs these "reliable sources" apparently provide is nothing more than an easy way to scare off any potential interest in the religion though the things which are being said and the accusations are in fact completely false.

I ignore or laugh off baseless claims about islm, that people wave around as ''fact''. Or better yet, I point out that those ''facts'' (moon worship etc.) were fabricated by a known anti-islamic fraudster with fake degrees called Robert Morey. He is the originator of retarded moon god theories, often parroted by ignorant christians.

a reply to: DarknStormy

Information on Robert Morey (wiki)

Moon-god theory :

One of the better known and most controversial assertions Morey made about Islam is that God in Islam is in origin the "moon god" Hubal, a deity worshipped at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic Arabia." Morey argues that the same name of God of Islam, Arabic Allah, was an epithet of Hubal's in pre-Islamic Mecca. He also cites a 1950s era archeological excavation in Hazor, Israel, in what was ancient Galilee, in which a decapitated male statue was unearthed which some archaeologists thought might be Hubal. Morley claims that this provides that moon worship existed in Arabia. He argues that Muhammad adapted it to create Allah, thus supposedly explaining the use of crescent moon imagery in Islam. This "Allah as Moon-god" theory has been widely repeated, adapted and criticised.

Now you know the source of those ridiculous claims made against Islam, that ignorant people blindly parrot. Such ideas from a fraud are not even worth responding, rather its better to educate Christians on Robert Morey.


My detailed ATS thread on Robert Moreys ideas, fake degrees and violent anti-Islamic mentality

He claims that he holds an honorary doctor of divinity (D.D.) in Islamic Studies from the Faith Theological Seminary, located in Pakistan. The Seminary in question denies this and even ordered him to remove the "qualification" from bio and even threatened legal action. They also called his claim to the degree as being "illegal and fake".

He also claims that he holds a PhD in Islamic Studies from the Louisiana Baptist University (LBU)... an unaccredited institution that is not recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation. Even further, he claims the PhD he holds was for "Islamic studies"... a course that is non-existent in the LBU's curriculum.

Another point to note is that LBU, where he got his "PhD" is listed in Steve Levicoff’s book Name It and Frame It?: New Opportunities in Adult Education and How to Avoid Being Ripped Off by “Christian” Degree Mills - a book about institutions offering bogus degrees for money.

a reply to: sk0rpi0n
He's just one of MANY people who say the same thing. And he isn't the source of the questions. Everyone can see muslims running between hills like the pagans .. you can't deny it. The faux-indignation and deflection doesn't fly.

The thread is dead anyways.

/DEAD THREAD

This thread is not dead. Jesus is the prophesied Christ, the Son of the Living God, and He is risen! He invites us to the heavenly banquet, to eternal life. If we die to our sins we share in the hope of rising to eternal life! To my Jewish brethren please accept this generous offer that God has extended to us in His loving kindness, mercy, and wisdom! Seek out your own sacred scriptures and you will find that Jesus is the Christ. He is the Living Word! Immanuel! Jesus Christ is our savior, the Paschal Lamb of God (He is also the Lion of the tribe of Judah!) who takes away the sins of the world, and the altar of the Cross is our salvation! Hallelujah! My Jewish brethren interested in their religious heritage, consider the life of Christ in light of the prophecy of Isaiah 7.

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Hail Mary! Full of Grace! Blessed art though among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb-Immanuel!

Harden not your hearts my brothers and sisters, as your ancestors of old did. The LORD led me to this to share with my Jewish brethren:

Isaiah 9

9 At the first time the land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephtali was lightly touched: and at the last the way of the sea beyond the Jordan of the Galilee of the Gentiles was heavily loaded. 2 The people that walked in darkness, have seen a great light: to them that dwelt in the region of the shadow of death, light is risen. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and hast not increased the joy. They shall rejoice before thee, as they that rejoice in the harvest, as conquerors rejoice after taking a prey, when they divide the spoils. 4 For the yoke of their burden, and the rod of their shoulder, and the sceptre of their oppressor thou hast overcome, as in the day of Median. 5 For every violent taking of spoils, with tumult, and garment mingled with blood, shall be burnt, and be fuel for the fire. 6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace. 7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people of Ephraim shall know, and the inhabitants of Samaria that say in the pride and haughtiness of their heart: 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with square stones: they have cut down the sycamores, but we will change them for cedars. 11 And the Lord shall set up the enemies of Rasin over him, and shall bring on his enemies in a crowd: 12 The Syrians from the east, and the Philistines from the west: and they shall devour Israel with open mouth, For all this his indignation is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 13 And the people are not returned to him who hath struck them, and have not sought after the Lord of hosts. 14 And the Lord shall destroy out of Israel the head and the tail, him that bendeth down, and him that holdeth back, in one day. 15 The aged and honourable, he is the head: and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 And they that call this people blessed, shall cause them to err: and they that are called blessed, shall be thrown down headlong. 17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men: neither shall he have mercy on their fatherless, and widows: for every one is a hypocrite and wicked, and every mouth hath spoken folly. For all this his indignation is not turned away, but his bend is stretched out still. 18 For wickedness is kindled as a fire, it shall devour the brier and the thorn: and shall kindle in the thicket of the forest, and it shall be wrapped up in smoke ascending on high. 19 By the wrath of the Lord of hosts the land is troubled, and the people shall be as fuel for the fire: no man shall spare his brother. 20 And he shall turn to the right hand, and shall be hungry: and shall eat on the left hand, and shall not be filled: every one shall eat the flesh of his own arm: Manasses Ephraim, and Ephraim Manasses, and they together shall be against Juda. 21 After all these things his indignation is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

I emphasize verse 21. To my Jewish brothers and sisters consider His hands stretched out on the Cross, and weep bitter tears for yours sins, and for the sins of the world, and rejoice! Our savior is risen, for our God is a Living God! Hallelujah!

I'm being honest when I say your own scriptures, the law and the prohets point to Jesus, for He is the Word of God, He is the Christ, He is the Son of the Living God, He is the Bread of Life-the true Manna- He is the Paschal Lamb of God-Jesus Christ! He takes away the sins of the world! He is your High Priest before God the Father! Through Him Gods' covenant to Abraham and Sarah is fulfilled! Jesus is the Messiah who will lead us to the promised land. His kingdom is not of this world, yet the Earth in all its' fullness belongs to Him! Just as Abraham was ready to offer even his own son Issac to please the Almighty Living God of Heaven and Earth, so too did God the Father of All send His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, the Logos, the Visible Image of the Invisible God, truly God Incarnate, and Immanuel, to take upon Himself the sins of the world. He is the Perfect Atoning Sacrifice by which our sins our forgiven, for He has taken the curse of Eden upon Himself, the curse of sin and death, brambles and thorns, and suffering, yet He is the Son of God-Holy and without Sin! Where Adam was disobedient, and verily so to we, Jesus Christ was perfectly obedient even unto death, the worst sort of death, a criminals death. Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world, and on the third day He was raised, as your own sacred scriptures bear witness too:

17 As a woman with child, when she draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs: so are we become in thy presence, O Lord. 18 We have conceived, and been as it were in labour, and have brought forth wind: we have not wrought salvation on the earth, therefore the inhabitants of the earth have not fallen. 19 Thy dead men shall live, my slain shall rise again: awake, and give praise, ye that dwell in the dust: for thy dew is the dew of the light: and the land of the giants thou shalt pull down into ruin. 20 Go, my people, enter into thy chambers, shut thy doors upon thee, hide thyself a little for a moment, until the indignation pass away. 21 For behold the Lord will come out of his place, to visit the iniquity of the inhabitant of the earth against him: and the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall cover her slain no more.

Hallelujah!


Jesus Christ, Yeshua Ha'Messhiach, He is the Christ that your ancestors waited with eager anticipation for, yet when He came His own people recognized Him not. Yet Gods' Wisdom is profound. Glory be to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, to our LORD Jesus the Christ!

a reply to: mrphilosophias

. . . and the altar of the Cross is our salvation!

Yikes!
Our salvation is repenting, then going on living a life to righteousness.
We should take inspiration from the risen Christ who is our surety of our own life after this one is over, if we accept the invitation from God to receive His spirit that will lead to good works.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: mrphilosophias

. . . and the altar of the Cross is our salvation!

Yikes!
Our salvation is repenting, then going on living a life to righteousness.
We should take inspiration from the risen Christ who is our surety of our own life after this one is over, if we accept the invitation from God to receive His spirit that will lead to good works.

Righteousness in the sight of God can not come by our own works, for our righteousness is as filthy rags to the Most High Ever Living God, as He is Holy. It is only through faith in Jesus Christ the Son that we can be made pleasing and acceptable to God, for it is only by the perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ Yeshua that our sins are expiated. In Christ Jesus we can bear good fruit that is pleasing and acceptable to God. Fruit of love, mercy, kindness, gentleness, compassion, truth, and justice, and whatever else is good and perfect and praiseworthy!

Gethsemane, to seek retreat and intercede,
from betrayal, sleep, and harm did flee,

anguish for the flesh that's weak,
sweat, tears, and blood you weep so meek,

why for then the soldiers feet?
Betrayal's kiss; Your blessed cheek,

surrendered as though you were weak,

though Hosts awaiteth your decree on bendeth knee/

Tribunal at Sanhedrins seat,
A blasphemous charge they levy,
sure deceit,
For proven only truth You speak,

With signs and portents in the streets,
you had shown for all to see,

yet still they mocked with falsity,
and mistreated you as dishonored thief.

They led You on as prophecy,
but still You offered not a peep.

To Pilate's court they forward marched,
while the city tossed in sleep,

tred with sandles, boots, mobbed feet, and parch,
moving onward as darkness creeps

through the streets and ramparts breached.
They reach attention to demand

remediation, as if He had broken His own command,
law for remedy -as if- at last at Pilates stand,

they charged Him as with violent plan,

the charges failed for reprimand,

“Without defense?” Justice did implore.

For what reason did the mob ignore?

Pilate dipped his hands like stained,

for our children even, they commandeth for

Jesus' blood as rain to pour; 'crucifixion!'
they did decree and swore.


bitter wine, and crown of brambled thorn,
The Paschal lamb and ram of Abraham,
could sheer Providence afford.

A mystery: God's love for man,
Jesus Christ, the Son and the Lord of all,

in place of the iniquities of man.

So there then the exchange was made,
Barabbas chains unlocked with key,

convicted fair for all to see as trade instead,

for the One who heals affliction, and raised the dead,

sets captives free, and feeds poor sinners consecrated bread;

manna in the deserts dread, Who fasted so that we were fed?

All these things we did ignore,no apologia. His Passion Pure,

and moreso then all was said, and even all the books record.


Lord Jesus from grave and trespass snatch with crook,

Blessed Mother we Adore, Grace and Mercy please secure,

Theotokos, so we may hope, to look forward to your Sons' reward!


Joyful sorrow you permit to taste,
For no bounds does Your passion show,
thy grace and mercies store confound,
so profound are Your ways oh LORD,

greater than the highest heights from the ground!

Indeed He is the Lord of lords and King of kings,
Worthy of resounding praise,
hymns, joy and cheerful sound,
for eternity and countless days, forever and again abound.

Although He is Almighty God He bowed down as a slave,

Instead of gem studded diadem He suffered a thorny crown

to save us from the place,
where the sound of gnashing teeth,
darkness, and suffering surround/


Harken to the knocking door;
while there is time yet in the day to pray,
Seek and may you find Him too,
Indeed He is the light, the life; He is the Way!

yet in the Tomb His Body lay,

on the third day He burst forth,
like darkness gives to day,

all the witness' did say:
It's true! He isn't in the grave!
From Sheol, He is Risen!
Alleluia! Free from deaths decay!'

a reply to: mrphilosophias

It is only through faith in Jesus Christ the Son that we can be made pleasing and acceptable to God, . . .

This part is correct if you understand "faith" as following God's spirit that we receive through Jesus' work as intermediary in order to live righteously in a manner according to God's standard.

. . . for it is only by the perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ Yeshua that our sins are expiated.

This part is problematic in that there is no biblical support for it and is just so much pagan theory, that is, if by "expiated" you mean paying for sins.
One person cannot pay for the sins of another, it says so right in the Bible.

a reply to: mrphilosophias

. . . for He is the Word of God . . .

I realize people think that, but I think this interpretation is a product of the great Trinity debates back in the forth and fifth centuries.
It is convenient in supporting a trinity to have these verses in the first chapter of the Gospel of John to add weight to the argument, but it is a distortion of the idea intended by the original writer to make an understandable explanation for the events described in this gospel, that is, the preaching of John the Baptist, the collecting of disciples by Jesus and his mission of preaching and healing in the historical location of the ancient kingdom of Israel.
It is God at work to make things happen according to His will which could be understood in the Hellenistic world in the philosophical term, the Logos.
It really doesn't say that Jesus is the Logos, but that the Logos was a real presence within the people involved, including Jesus.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
a reply to: sk0rpi0n
He's just one of MANY people who say the same thing. And he isn't the source of the questions. Everyone can see muslims running between hills like the pagans .. you can't deny it. The faux-indignation and deflection doesn't fly.

The thread is dead anyways.

/DEAD THREAD

and once again you repeat the same baseless Robert Morey-esque nonsense. Why dont you start posting chick tracts

Since You guys are interested in monotheism so much ! I put the source of revolutionary Philosophical Existentialism theory of Mulla Sadra here !

Mulla Sadra is often described as a metaphysical revolutionary because of his uniquely posited doctrine of existence. The analysis of existence commences with the ontological distinction between the Necessary (the principle, God) and the contingent. God is pure existence without essence, quality or property that undergoes change or motion.

The second doctrine is the modulation and gradation of existence (tashkik al-wujud). The semantics of the term ‘existence’ and its modulated singularity commits Mulla Sadra to a reality that is equally modulated and singular. Existence is a singular reality, as the phenomenal experience of existence as multiple is illusory. But multiplicity in this world still needs to be explained. Different existents in this world are thus different, intense degrees of a single whole. Thus there is a horizontal and a vertical hierarchy of existence that is connected and involved in a whole chain of existence.......................


plato.stanford.edu...

In summary, existence is the truth. It is a single thing. It is the ultimate of every goodness. Existence can have many appearances. For example, existence can be manifested as a stone, an animal or human.
Lack of existence, incompleteness causes the creatures to be different from each other and to be different from pure existence which is God. God is pure existence and we can not have many pure existence the same as we have only one infinity in math !
so creatures are creatures just because they are not the pure existence the complete existence. existence of an animal is more than the existence of stone. existence of human is more than the existence of an animal. And they are all creatures because they lack many grades of existence.