Japan declares 'nuclear emergency' after quake - PART 2

reply to post by pheonix358

This is what happens when greedy little bastards in board rooms make decisions in opposition to the best scientific advice. I lived this period, I remember the 'alarmist scientists' and the 'hippy protesters.'

Excellent post. I lived thru that period too and that is how things played out. The unsolved problems of waste were shelved for now, the possibility of a total meltdown down played and minimized.

What to do with spent fuel will be worked out and back up systems would prevent a catastrophe. Engineers and company reps assured us everything was well in hand.

The public was misled.

I remember the Senate hearings that decided to go with nuclear power. It was new, It was safe and it was clear of waste and danger. Someone held up a glass of water and said that there was enough potential energy in this glass to power the country for days or some such. It was New and Clear as that glass of water being held aloft. "New" and "Clear"-- Nuclear. A play on the nucleus of the atom and the deception they used to convince those present (without any real proof) that everything was going to be Okay. Just trust them.

reply to post by intrptr


ohh what tangled webs we weave,,when we practice the art too decieve.
dark arts indeed,,

but hey,, marketing 101,,,sell the fizzle,,sizzle,,

reply to post by BobAthome


Yes, how can a simple glass of water be anything but benign? Other deceptions about plants are right there in plain view.

Some people have voiced their incredulity at the reasons for placing facilities adjacent to large bodies of water. The above board reason is the water is needed for cooling purposes. The other (now obvious) reason is in case of meltdown. The ocean or river is a convenient place to flush the contamination into. There it is dispersed away from the site. Theres another element that most people haven't paid much attention to.

Ever wonder what those vent stacks are doing there? I don't mean the "hour glass" water cooling towers that have become synonymous with nuclear power plants.

I am talking about the Vent Stacks visible at every power plant around the world. They aren't "smoke stacks" in the usual sense for releasing smoke from factories or refineries, say.

(emphasis added)

Nearly all nuclear installations utilize stacks to discharge ventilation air, as well as gases and fumes, from contaminated areas to the environment. Over a service lifetime that can span decades, stacks may become contaminated as a result of the deposition of radioactive substances, e.g. aerosols, on stack surfaces.

Little burps and hiccups that occur over time, I see.

As in the case of industrial sites, a feature of nuclear sites, such as nuclear power plants, nuclear fuel cycle facilities and research centers, is elevated ventilation stacks. At nuclear facilities, the main purpose of stacks is to dilute and disperse authorized airborne discharges from active plant systems.
---
As is also true for non-nuclear plants, stacks at nuclear facilities are required to be much higher than nearby buildings and the local topography. Therefore stacks are commonly constructed up to heights of 125 m, and in some cases even higher. Stack height depends on the prevailing weather conditions, heights and surfaces of nearby buildings, and radioactive discharge potential. From a structural perspective, stacks can be massive, with weights of up to 2000 t.

Really, really tall to carry away "authorized" radioactive contamination… got it.

Stacks become contaminated over the operating lifetime of nuclear facilities through the accumulated deposition of radioactive particulates and the absorption of radioactive gases.

And that is during "normal" operations, I guess.

Saturday morning after the earthquake I caught this NHK report showing the facility at Daichi (from the ocean). The three vent stacks are evident at the plant with the one at the right (#1) showing emissions. This was after the quake and Tsunmai but before the stricken #1 reactor building blew its top.

These stacks are reserved for emergency venting procedures designed to carry any contamination away from the plant.

The PDF linked is extensively devoted to decontaminating and decommissioning these stacks around the world. Good information considering in most situations extreme care had to be exercised during decommissioning in order to prevent the contamination inside the stacks from escaping into the environment. Individual cases are reviewed at the end of the report.

www-pub.iaea.org...

if anyone is watching,,

Fukushima cranes are doing the shimmy,,,the weight on the end of the crane is acting like a plumb bob.

scarey.




www.tepco.co.jp...

reply to post by BobAthome

Those hooks are (supposed) to be lowered to the ground and anchored to prevent hi winds from toppling the crane.

reply to post by intrptr




well at least they raised, the bob part.
,,yaaaa
probly thought u meant electrical ground,,,so sorry.

reply to post by intrptr


unless it was the quake?

sure was doing the ,,shimy,,thought it was wind from Super Storm,, in that area.

maybe not wind.
ground.

Government Finds No Trace of Radiation in Korean Fresh Fish

The South Korean government has said that it has found no trace of radioactive materials in any fish or marine products recently caught in the country's neighboring seas.

The latest test, conducted late last month, tested 118 samples of 16 species that are most popular in the country, according to the Ministry of Oceans and Fisheries, reports YonhapNewsAgency.

"The test conducted in October found no trace of radioactive materials, such as cesium or iodine," it said in a press release.

"The ministry will continue to conduct radiation safety tests on local fishery products and make sure only safe products are sold in the market."

The Fish Site

Japanese anti-nuclear civic groups targeted in large-scale cyber-attack

It’s a form of a cyber-attack and Internet abuse called “email bombing”, where a recipient email address is inundated by huge volumes of emails as to overwhelm their inboxes and disrupt normal email activities. In this case, at least 33 civic groups from all over Japan — many of them anti-nuclear organizations — have been hit by a series of cyber-attacks bombarding them with a total of 2.53 million email messages since mid-September, group members and a lawyer representing them said on Sunday.

According to lawyer Yuichi Kaido, the civic groups are now considering filing a criminal complaint against the senders of the emails for obstruction of business. The groups which were the targets of these attacks include Fukushima Genpatsu Kokusodan, a group formed by residents of the prefecture affected by the nuclear disaster at the No. 1 plant. According to testimonies from the targeted organizations, the first wave of emails arrived in September, flooding the 33 groups with over 2 million messages, the lawyer said. More messages were sent to two of the groups between late October and earlier this month, disrupting the organizations’ email capabilities.

The Japanese Daily Press

Human0815
Government Finds No Trace of Radiation in Korean Fresh Fish

The South Korean government has said that it has found no trace of radioactive materials in any fish or marine products recently caught in the country's neighboring seas.

The latest test, conducted late last month, tested 118 samples of 16 species that are most popular in the country, according to the Ministry of Oceans and Fisheries, reports YonhapNewsAgency.

"The test conducted in October found no trace of radioactive materials, such as cesium or iodine," it said in a press release.

"The ministry will continue to conduct radiation safety tests on local fishery products and make sure only safe products are sold in the market."

The Fish Site

Not knowing the names of the fish or their normal travel routes, I can only speculate they live in their neighborhood, which is somewhere between the west coast of Japan and the shores of South Korea. Based on current maps I've seen the prevailing currents go from east coast of Japan (Fukushima) towards Alaska and down the west coast of North America. So that's one reason they may be coming up as free of radiation. Another possible reason depends on what they were testing them with which the article declines to say. I'm sure the fish around China are fine too, they are also on the 'other end' of the currents.

I would like to see real and proper testing done on fish from Fukushima to Alaska, which is unlikely.

Common sense alone says if you dump millions of tons of radioactive waste into water that it doesn't simply disappear and not affect the wildlife. But I'm sure the governments would tell us if there was any concern *cough*.

Nitrogen Injection Dropped in Unit 1 Again....

Also the temps in all the SFPs went down 2 degrees....r they getting blasted with super cold too??

11/11/13:

www.tepco.co.jp...

11/12/13:

www.tepco.co.jp...

Wonder how they are going to keep everything from freezing this winter???

(And dangit Aircooled...it's been a month since he has been on the thread...)

- Purple Chive

reply to post by wishes


You should look for Files and Studies about Radiation in the Seawater
of the English Sea, the North Sea, the Skagerag, the Baltic Sea and the Arctic Sea,
all of them got polluted by the Nuclear Programs of each Country
like the UK, the EU or Soviet Russia on a much higher Level!

This will help you the get a bit of knowledge about the potential Danger of Fukushima.

The People there consume much higher Levels of Radiation since Decades
than we do here in Nippon.

Fishes do not absorb Radiation like a Mushroom!

reply to post by Purplechive


Yes, since a few Days it is freezing Cold here in Kanto and above,
under 5C. at Night and just a bit above Fukushima we got Snow a lot!

Purplechive
Nitrogen Injection Dropped in Unit 1 Again....

Also the temps in all the SFPs went down 2 degrees....r they getting blasted with super cold too??

11/11/13:

www.tepco.co.jp...

11/12/13:

www.tepco.co.jp...

Wonder how they are going to keep everything from freezing this winter???

(And dangit Aircooled...it's been a month since he has been on the thread...)

- Purple Chive

edit on 12-11-2013 by Purplechive because: (no reason given)

PC, must admit that I've not paid attention to this before, BUT look at the "Pressure in PVC" line.

Unit 1, always has pressure, units two and three, not so much, in fact not even enough to be worth noting.

What is interesting about that is, unit 1 may in fact still be a "closed system", there appears to be pressure in the PVC, the other two don't have any pressure hardly at all, unit 3 NEVER shows pressure, so that's telling us a lot.

It means "containment" is certainly out the door, there are openings allowing the pressure to be released.

Human0815
*snip*

reply to post by intrptr

 

Regarding Fuel Fleas:

He has been making the rounds of the advertiser supported media recently with stories about the dangers of “hot particles” that are so tiny they cannot be picked up by normal radiation detectors. (Note: Radiation can be measured at extremely low levels, far below the levels that can cause human health effects. There is a reason why doctors inject small amounts radioactive materials into their patients as tracers to assist them in diagnosing organ function – those tracers make bodily systems visible without endangering the patient. If the hot particles are so tiny and dispersed that they cannot be detected, they are nothing to worry about.)

Atom-Insight

edit on 8-11-2013 by Human0815 because: 2 into One

 

Mod Edit: Please Review the Following Link: Courtesy Is Mandatory

edit on Fri Nov 8 2013 by Jbird because: (no reason given)

I refer you to this wiki link regarding the existence of "fuel fleas"., which in fact are dangerous to the surrounding tissue in which they land Sourced in the Wiki article.

The radioactive isotopes they use for radioactive traceography that is suggested in the quote are not alpha emitters (usually gamma) and are nowhere near as radioactively dangerous as the alpha and beta particle emitters that are coming off of burning spent fuel rods or the core of nuclear reactors during meltdowns.

Most common consumer geiger counters can't detect alpha and beta emitters, unless they are specifically outfitted with a paddle and are calibrated to detect them, this is not due to the size of the particle, but the type of emissions the instrument is calibrated to read (most commonly gamma). Another misconception is that most dose models, including the LNT and ICRP, take into account internal exposure, they don't. Both of these models assume an "exposed" or "absorbed" external dose. Getting one of these particles into your lung is a much different kind of exposure, as the element will sit there for years irradiating all the tissue around it as it can't be expelled or washed off.

Also, anyone who says that any level of radiation exposure is "safe" is quite plainly wrong. Reference. There is no safe level of radiation exposure, it is bioaccumulative over an organism's lifetime. This is especially true for long-lived isotopes that will still be highly radioactive after they cause a cancer in a person's lung, they die, and the isotope can then resuspend to lodge in a man's testicle or cornea, until they die, onwards for 24,000 years or more. It is not the size of the particle that matters, it is how radioactively energetic it is that determines it's lethality.

Human0815
reply to post by wishes

 

You should look for Files and Studies about Radiation in the Seawater
of the English Sea, the North Sea, the Skagerag, the Baltic Sea and the Arctic Sea,
all of them got polluted by the Nuclear Programs of each Country
like the UK, the EU or Soviet Russia on a much higher Level!

This will help you the get a bit of knowledge about the potential Danger of Fukushima.

The People there consume much higher Levels of Radiation since Decades
than we do here in Nippon.

Fishes do not absorb Radiation like a Mushroom!

reply to post by Purplechive

 

Yes, since a few Days it is freezing Cold here in Kanto and above,
under 5C. at Night and just a bit above Fukushima we got Snow a lot!

edit on 12-11-2013 by Human0815 because: 2 in to 1.

Radiation is accumulative, not absorbed (that I know of) - and I don't know what happens when fish 'breathe' hot particles through through gills, but it can't be good. We're talking about Fukushima here, not the English Sea, Baltic Sea, etc. and I'm pretty sure what you'd find in testing the waters globally is that they all pale in comparison to what's being poured into the ocean by Fukushima 24/7/365.

I'm one of those people that believe radiation is bad - all the atom bombs never made sense and yes, they also leave residue for eons in the air, land and water. I repeat, I would be interested in fish sampled between the Fukushima run off and Alaskan coast but don't expect it will be forthcoming by any reliable or credible source for obvious reasons. If the companies or governments had even an ounce of credibility they would have been forthright and upfront with proper readings and remedies from day ONE. It is going on three years and nothing noteworthy has been done to stop this. There is nothing comparable in the history of humankind.

PC, must admit that I've not paid attention to this before, BUT look at the "Pressure in PVC" line.

Unit 1, always has pressure, units two and three, not so much, in fact not even enough to be worth noting.

What is interesting about that is, unit 1 may in fact still be a "closed system", there appears to be pressure in the PVC, the other two don't have any pressure hardly at all, unit 3 NEVER shows pressure, so that's telling us a lot.

It means "containment" is certainly out the door, there are openings allowing the pressure to be released.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this suggestive of criticality?

(pc - yes, is most disconcerting when a solid contributing member simply vanishes)

reply to post by Silverlok

I agree with your post entirely. But I am finding it very hard to accept Honshu is gone. Because if that comes to past - and I agree with you there too - when you think it right through then the logical conclusion to reach that Japan is gone. Should the Honshu be evacuated then it must mean the disaster is so great the rest of the country also inevitably is likely to go too, maybe within a single life time. Perhaps Hokkaido will remain habitable.

Japanese are very strong spirited, and toughened as a community over time by having sparse resources and often harsh conditions as beautiful as the island can be. But just take a look at the Philippines to see how easily a country can be bought completely to its knees. The Philippines last week had one of the better performing economies in Asia, better than Thailand, and better than China believe it or not. Now it is in complete and utter ruin, and still they can rebuild, they don't face thousands of years of continuing environmental contamination as does Japan. Once I realize the potential scale of the disaster Japan faces I see it just doesn't stop there either, because for Honshu to be gone that would surely mean the Pacific is done as well. Very bleak.

And - given the current attitude to refugees exhibited by many western nations, the future of Honshu residents forced to flee that island is also bleak.

Subjecting Fukushima Dai-ichi to science is the only way to proceed on this thread for sure, and I only wish that the clean up/containment (not really possible anymore I guess) of Fukushima Dai-ichi was also subjected to the rigors of real scientists and technologists, and they have those in Japan too. While it is too late now to find the corium and contain it, I believe there is the technology and the money to fix a lot of this mess. I just don't think we have the system in place able to do that yet. That is the real frustration, we can make things vastly better but it will take so much time to convince most of the smart, even expert people out there, and most importantly the masses themselves that this can be done.

For me that means keeping in mind 'cause and effect' and tracing events and actions right back to the roots of the problem. Is there any kind of worthwhile answer to be had in discussing events and actions as paradigms, I don't think so. That is why historical records (such as medical evaluations of given populations) are so necessary, and why keeping research results open to public examination and peer evaluation is essential.

There are people working for the government that are lost souls so to speak. They are really don't care when push comes to shove, because they are enveloped in a world of despondency themselves. They know no better. They will seek to obfuscate intensely because that is their job. The rest of that I will leave unsaid.

As you and others on the old thread and this one point out, there are nuclear PPs in many countries and in some cases, the US springs to mind, there are several that are potential Fukushima Dai-ichis, for reason of dated technology, stunningly badly chosen locations, and mad cost cutting. All of it driven by profit motive and an overriding concern by those who govern us and their handlers to preserve the status quo at all costs. With out considering the big picture and revising the way we perceive our world we naturally slip into a state of hopeless despondency, that leaves us open to horrendous reactionary solutions hoisted upon us. And by this last I mean, accept that Japanese children must suffer massive increases in cancer and all kinds of illness including those resulting from DNA damage; that refugees should be left to their own ends because of their sheer numbers, to accept a descent into world war 3 as a desperate struggle for resources (oil and gas) consumes TPTB in each country - including Japan; and so on. People just give up and give in to the bliss of ignorance hoisted upon them.

For myself, not involved in the nuclear industry, the Japanese I know mostly want to deny because there is just far too many problems weighing down on them. But there will inevitably come a breaking point. Many of those below the age of 55 are aware they are being told lies by their government and they are growing increasingly frustrated and angry. But then again, there is a lot who would rather live in blissful ignorance for as long as they can - I believe many of this last group don't fully realise what the inevitabilities ahead.

Anyway just 2 cents for today.

I am glad to see you are still posting on the subject, along with many others who were there at the start of the old thread and who have demonstrated valuable insight. This bodes well for this new thread. I haven't read through the whole thing yet though - mainly because it is just so incredibly frustrating.

wishes

Human0815
reply to post by wishes

 

You should look for Files and Studies about Radiation in the Seawater
of the English Sea, the North Sea, the Skagerag, the Baltic Sea and the Arctic Sea,
all of them got polluted by the Nuclear Programs of each Country
like the UK, the EU or Soviet Russia on a much higher Level!

This will help you the get a bit of knowledge about the potential Danger of Fukushima.

The People there consume much higher Levels of Radiation since Decades
than we do here in Nippon.

Fishes do not absorb Radiation like a Mushroom!

reply to post by Purplechive

 

Yes, since a few Days it is freezing Cold here in Kanto and above,
under 5C. at Night and just a bit above Fukushima we got Snow a lot!

edit on 12-11-2013 by Human0815 because: 2 in to 1.

Radiation is accumulative, not absorbed (that I know of) - and I don't know what happens when fish 'breathe' hot particles through through gills, but it can't be good. We're talking about Fukushima here, not the English Sea, Baltic Sea, etc. and I'm pretty sure what you'd find in testing the waters globally is that they all pale in comparison to what's being poured into the ocean by Fukushima 24/7/365.

I'm one of those people that believe radiation is bad - all the atom bombs never made sense and yes, they also leave residue for eons in the air, land and water. I repeat, I would be interested in fish sampled between the Fukushima run off and Alaskan coast but don't expect it will be forthcoming by any reliable or credible source for obvious reasons. If the companies or governments had even an ounce of credibility they would have been forthright and upfront with proper readings and remedies from day ONE. It is going on three years and nothing noteworthy has been done to stop this. There is nothing comparable in the history of humankind.

You misunderstood me here, which is very easy

I thought that you should look for this Seas to get a better Understanding
how all this Things work, until the Eighties we dumped whole Cores in to the Sea
and we know very well how all this Radiation accumulate in Nature,
when you look for it you get hundreds of hundreds of Results to Studies and Reports!

PS: Fukushima is small compared to all this Stuff we had dumped in the Past,
you get a good Picture about the Dosage when you compare the Data!
(i know you dislike it but imho this is the Truth!)

reply to post by Wertwog


You should and need to understand that the "Physicians for a social Responsibility"
are just a part, a ingredient but not the whole Soup!

We have Millions of People who work with Radiation and nearly all of them get
checked regularly, face it!

A good Discussion Paper is offered here and in English:
Radiation : The No-Safe-Level Myth
Hiroshima Syndrome

reply to post by Silverlok


All things considered - I am wondering if you would share what you see as the best way to deal with Fukushima? (and Matador and anyone else) What would be your best remedy to stop if you were in charge of it and had unlimited resources?

I mentioned before my first thought is to bury all of them in dirt and zeolite but that doesn't take care of the underground water or ocean pollution.

Would very much appreciate your thoughts and ideas on this, thanks kindly.