New report questions Israel's claim of "divine right"

Dont know if im gonna laugh or cry...

Here shows how stupid religions are.
I normaly dont care what people say or do,
but your killing people, driving them from there
homes, bombing children, for what.
A FRAKKING book..

Myths and legends, words supposed to be spoken THOUSANDS of years ago.
Theres no assylum big enough for all you...
You waky people, insane i say...

AND YES, ALL OF YOU...

reply to post by Miccey
These folks hate each other, and I don't believe that religion is the actual “root cause” of the problem. That is why we even have groups from different sects, but part of the same religion, killing each other. Its like the “Hatfields and Maccoys” and many times it goes back so many generations that they cannot even tell you what the fights originally started over. I know that there was at least once instance where the whole thing started over a marriage.

reply to post by Miccey


I have a little different take on it, which you might want to consider.

Very, very, few see our current situation as an attack on any religion. Pose the question "Do you care whether there are people in the Middle-East are Muslim?" I believe the answer, if the question is understood, would be a near universal "no."

The difficulty comes about when people, of any religion, say "I must kill you, because my religion demands it."

The religion isn't the problem, it's the acts which are committed.

reply to post by charles1952

Hi Charles 1952--

You wrote:

QUOTE

“The difficulty comes about when people, of any religion, say "I must kill you, because my religion demands it."

The Religion isn't the problem, it's the acts which are committed.”

UNQUOTE

I’m afraid the issue is far more nuanced than that – for religious 'actions' are based on 'religious' commands found in 'religious' books - especially when monotheistic religions are based on ‘Books of hate and intolerance of The Other’ such as we see in the Q’uran and in the Hebrew & Christian ‘Bibles’

Here are some key passages from the so-called ‘holy Torah’ (the absolute CORE of Rabinninc Judaeism) which demands racial genocide & refer to the Heb. Term CH-R-M = to ‘mark for extermination’ in the context of a Holy War where a specific group is targeted for genocide) of Palestinian Canaanite amphyctionies and also re: “divine commands” to exterminate Amalekites as especially ‘marked for extermination’ as if they were wearing orange stars on their lapels ..

For those who believe the Torah as the 'infallible word of YHWH the clan god of Yisro'el' (such as ultra right wing extremist Torah Abiding religious Zionists (e.g. the Lubovichers) , or right wing extremist 'Pentacostal' Christians, to name just 2 ) their books demand 'action'

TORAH e.g. Exodus 17: 8-16

And YHWH said to Mosheh, Write this down as a Memorial on a Scroll & read it into the ears of Joshua son of Nun : Behold, I will Exterminate the Seed (lit. ‘Remembrance’) of the Amalekites from Under the Heavens. Therefore Mosheh built an Altar to YHWH right there etc.

TORAH See Deuteronomy 7: 1-5

When YHWH your clan-god brings you to the land where you are headed to take possession of it, and has cast out the goyim before you - Hittites, & Girgazites, & Amorites, and the Canaanites & Perizzites, & Hivites, & Jebusites, 7 gentile nations that are more numerous & powerful that you are --

And when YHWH your clan god has delivered them, you shall utterly exterminate them all showing no mercy to them; neither will you make Treaties with them nor enter into marriages with them – for they will turn your sons from following me & cause them to worship other clan gods – thus will the anger of YHWH burn against you and destroy you without notice.

TORAH Deuteronomy 13: 12-17a

12 If you should hear a rumour in one of the towns which YHWH your clan god will give you to live in, saying ‘I heard certain evil men taking some of the town out encouraging them to worship other foreign clan gods which you have not yet heard of, you shall set up an Inquiry and if the acusation is proved true that such a ritual Toqebah (‘cultic abomination’) has taken place, you will utterly genocide all the inhabitants of that town, utterly destroying the town and its inhabitants, down to the animals – then you will gather together all of their belongings and utterly burn the lot in the town square – and not take any of it for yourself, and leave it a perpetual Ruin, never again to be rebuilt.

TORAH Deuteronomy 20: 10-18

This is the Rule of War for the Towns of the Goyim which YHWH your clan god shall give unto you and your sons as an Inheritance – You shall leave nothing alive that breathes, but you shall utterly exterminate every one of them, namely the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; exactly as YHWH your clan god has commanded you, so that they will not be able to teach you all of their peculiar ritual Toq’eboth (‘taboos’, ‘cultic abominations’) that they perform for their own clan gods, leading you into sin against YHWH your clan god.

TORAH Deuteronomy 25:17-19

Now remember what Amalekites (lit. ‘Amalek’) did to you when you were sojourning out of the land of Mitzrayim : how they came upon you on the road and attacked your rear guard, including the weakest ones in your camps, and how they showed no reverence for the Elohim (‘gods’) – it shall come to pass that when the land you shall be given by your clan god YHWH is settled and becomes your Inheritance to possess, you shall utterly genocide the Seed of Amalek (lit. ‘Remembrance’) from under heavens – you will never forget this.

Outside the Torah, references to ‘fulfillment of the Divine Commands to genocide’ the goyim e.g.Joshua & 1 Samuel, in the context of the (CH-R-M) – the same marking-off of the Other ’ that we saw in the Nazi death camps based on their ‘Wodin-based’ religion)

See :Joshua 8:1-2, 8:23 & Joshua 10: 31-33 (ref the extermination of Lachish) & Joshua 10:34-35 (ref the genocide of Eglon) etc. Then read Joshua 10:40b where it states proudly

‘And Joshua utterly exterminated everything that breathed, leaving not a single soul alive, in accordance with the Command of YHWH…’

Can you see how your comments about the immunity of religion from genocidal hate might seem oversimplified?

reply to post by Sigismundus

Dear Sigismundus,

Hello, I'm glad to meet you. I don't think I've been in a thread with you before. Excellent point you're raising, and I'm glad you went to the trouble you did to bring it out through Jewish Scriptures. And you're absolutely right that it's all more nuanced than my post might lead someone to believe.

Allow me to explain my thinking, not as an excuse (although it may be an excuse) but to get more complete understanding.

I originally wrote what I did as a response to the poster who said it was the religion that was causing all the trouble. I thought, and still do, that people are responsible for the actions and beliefs. I can understand that nearly anyone can be strongly influenced by their religion, but now, at least, I would expect people to say "Stop! I won't do that." (How many people? I don't know.)

You're also right that God told the Jews, on more than one occasion, to chew up their enemies and sow salt on the remains. That, I see as brought about for another purpose, but no one can deny that it happened.

I see a couple of differences here. One, we live, what 3000 years later? The changed circumstances should be considered. Many actions which are claimed as required by religion, are not tolerated by Christianity, or the world at large.

Secondly, going out to smite the enemy was what passed for diplomacy back then. I wouldn't dream of attempting to diagram all of the tribes who were fighting other tribes to the death. Perhaps it's a little like slavery, normal then, bad juju now.

Finally, assuming the Jewish Scriptures are correct, they were getting their instructions from a pretty impressive source. Pillars of flame, burning bushes, columns of smoke, parted seas, the whole miracle business. Now? I don't want to denegrate anyone, let's just say the sources aren't so impressive.

Looking at Islam for a moment, I'm surprised a little by the number of posters, and I suppose many Muslims outside ATS, that swear up and down that the Koran teaches not to kill. It seems as though there's a split in the community. Again, people can stay Muslim and choose either side of the issue they want, kill, or not kill. I believe there's some free will involved here also.

I may have missed the point of your post, but I wanted to explain what was in my liitle brain. Thanks again for your patience.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by defcon5

Revelations 7 and 14 tells of the 144,000 Virgin Jewish Men who will spread the Gospel Of Jesus through out the world . Chapter 14 breaks down chapter 7 a little better and in verse 8 states that Babylon has fallen , verse 9 talks about those who worshipped the Beast or took it's mark , verse 14 the white cloud and the Harvest . Again the world is not Israel or the Middle East . God said the Gospel ( the true Gospel) will be spread throughout the world . What has happened in the Mediterranean is important but God thinks Global . Jesus spoke of Israel being destroyed and the Jews being scattered through out the world . That was true for 2000 years > Ezekiel 37 tells of Israel being brought back from barren land , Ezekiel 38 tells of the presently eminent war of Gog and Magog . Ezekiel 39 tells of Jesus coming to save Israel. John in Rev 11 verse 2 was told to measure the temple outer courts ainclusing the outter court that will be troden by the Gentile for 42 months and the 2 witnesses will witness for 1260 days . In Daniel he explaind that Jesus will come shortly after .
This is end time prophecy and Jesus has not come back . I can not agree that everything has happened . I feel that the logic is flawed as it does not take into account all the events of prophecy .

reply to post by Sigismundus


What is with the "Clan god "?

reply to post by defcon5


"5)Feet of Clay and Iron = (there is much debate over this) "

Feet of clay means inaction.
Feet of iron means bureaucracy.

When I concentrate on it I get only one answer - "Papacy".

Maybe thats what it is. This beast is "Papacy" or the Vatican.

That means all the following empires like Holy Roman, British, USA, and failed empires of Napoleon and Hitler are under Papacy.

reply to post by GargIndia

And you may be correct, that is one of the accepted "interpretations" of that symbol, but there are arguments for others as well.
Wiki: Interpretations of idol image
You'll see here that most agree on the first 4, but the last bit is argued over.

reply to post by SimonPeter

Hi Simon

Are you actually telling me you did not know that YHWH ('Yahweh') was the post-exilic clan (i.e. national) god (Heb. Elohim) of the Benei Yisro'el?

Every tribal group in the Levant 3000 years ago had clan gods of their own who would go out and fight their battles for them - see Judges 11:241 ff where the Amorite national clan god Chemosh grants lands captured in war to the Amorites -

יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ הָאֱמֹרִי, יוֹשֵׁב הָאָרֶץ הַהִיא. וַיִּתֵּן יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-סִיחוֹן וְאֶת-כָּל-עַמּוֹ, בְּיַד יִשְׂרָאֵל--וַיַּכּוּם; וַיִּירַשׁ,

21 And YHWH the clan-god of Israel, delivered Sihon and all his people into the hand of benei-Yisro’el and they wiped them all out sothat Yisro’el took possession of all the lands of the Amorites, who were the indigenous inhabitants of that country.

כב וַיִּירְשׁוּ, אֵת כָּל-גְּבוּל הָאֱמֹרִי--מֵאַרְנוֹן, וְעַד-הַיַּבֹּק, וּמִן-הַמִּדְבָּר, וְעַד-הַיַּרְדֵּן.

22 And they took for themselves all the border of the Amorites, from the Arnon even unto the Jabbok, and from the wilderness even unto the Jordan river.

כג וְעַתָּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, הוֹרִישׁ אֶת-הָאֱמֹרִי, מִפְּנֵי, עַמּוֹ יִשְׂרָאֵל; וְאַתָּה, תִּירָשֶׁנּוּ.

23 So now YHWH the clan-god of Yiseo’el has dis-possessed all the Amorites from before his owns people Yisro’el - so now, would you take it from them?

כד הֲלֹא אֵת אֲשֶׁר יוֹרִישְׁךָ, כְּמוֹשׁ אֱלֹהֶיךָ--אוֹתוֹ תִירָשׁ; וְאֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר הוֹרִישׁ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, מִפָּנֵינוּ--אוֹתוֹ נִירָשׁ.

24 Why do you not now go and take possession of all the land that Chemosh YOUR OWN CLAN GOD has already given you to take ? So whomsoever YHWH our clan god has allowed us to take from others, we will keep for ourselves...."

&tc.

Notice how the technical term YHWH ELOHENU (lit. YHWH our clan god) is used in the above quotes - there is nothing more universal about YHWH than there is about CHEMOSH - they are both different clan-gods that's all - each with their own chosen people.


Surely you don't think for a moment that when you see YHWH mentioned, (or YHWH Elohenu - YHWH OUR CLAN GOD or YHWH Elohekha - YHWH YOUR CLAN GOD) in paleoHebrew we're dealing with a universal creator god, do you ?

Remember the Shema'q in the Torah, Deut 6:4-9 ?

שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד

lit. 'Hear O Yisro'el - YHWH is OUR CLAN GOD, YHWH ALONE ! (i.e. no other clan gods but YHWH)

Consider the self-serving source of all of this - the clan god of the Jews just happens to have favourites who are Jews (i.e. the 'chosen people' are the same ones who wrote their own self-serving books, naturally make themselves the chosen ones or the master race or whatever - it's called 'consider the source' - it's not by chance that Hitler chose the Germanic people to be the chosen people er...master race in Mein Kampf) - so naturally the Hebrew scriptures make the 'Hebrews' the master race in their OWN writings.

If the Oholone tribelets for example had a written language and could a write out a sacred book of their own (the nomadic tent building Israelites had no written language of their own and stole [or more politely 'borrowed'] the local Canaanite Phoenician horned aleph-beth) , they would surely have made themselves the chosen people or Master Race - it's called 'Self Serving Writings' - and the Old and New Testaments (and the Quran for that matter) all fall into that category.

Don't tell me all this is news to you?

reply to post by Sigismundus


Your clan god interpretation of the Bible is wrong and mocking the bible and I can't take you seriously . Good day !

reply to post by defcon5


I simply just do not agree . I haven't studied the different theories on what people believe which is to me just a diversion from the intent of the bible . I do know that prophecy dealing with the coming of Christ tells me that he has not come yet . When he does come it will be a known event all over the world . It may happen as a thief in the night where as it surprises all who are not vigilent .
I have heard of the Preterits views before call them what you will but the whole thing comes down to Jesus is the Messiah and has not returned as of yet .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
I simply just do not agree . I haven't studied the different theories on what people believe which is to me just a diversion from the intent of the bible .

If you have not studied the schools of eschatology, then are you really in a position to disagree?
Believe me, I used to be a Futurist just like you. At first I had a hard time accepting Historicism, it just about blew my mind, but when you start studying it, you just cannot argue with the facts as to which is the proper school of interpretation.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
I do know that prophecy dealing with the coming of Christ tells me that he has not come yet .

None of the three schools say he has, nor do any of the schools say this is over yet. So why do you keep repeating this like its a fact? Since you admit that you have not studied any of the other schools, maybe you should learn about how you are wrongly judging them.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
When he does come it will be a known event all over the world .

Yes.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
It may happen as a thief in the night where as it surprises all who are not vigilent .

And yet futurism teaches that when you see the antichrist make/break a peace treaty on the “rebuilt” temple mount, that you have EXACTLY 3.5 yeas left... How is THIS like a “thief in the night”?
The truth is that it isn't, and was one of the main discrepancies that lead me to Historicism.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
I have heard of the Preterits views before call them what you will but the whole thing comes down to Jesus is the Messiah and has not returned as of yet .

Preterism was created by Luis De Alcazar a Spanish Jesuit theologian.
Futurism was created by Francisco Ribera also a Spanish Jesuit theologian.
Historicism was started by Martin Luther...

Please, if you learn nothing else from this thread, stop referring to Historicism as Preterism.
The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

reply to post by Sigismundus

the same marking-off of the Other ’ that we saw in the Nazi death camps based on their ‘Wodin-based’ religion

not to pick nits because I liked your post

but it is the heart of divine right:
the germans were as of 1936:
54 % protestant
40 % catholic
1. something % Jewish
3 point something EVERTHING ELSE

over 97 % judeo christian
while they were according to answers.com 75 percent Nazi

so the extermination motif in this case is entirely CHRISTIAN
IMHO:
Whats hilarious is that there might be a "creator of everything" who creates peoples for christians to hate and who, because the god who created them hates them, must also be exterminated...

reply to post by SimonPeter

Hi Simon--

You wrote: QUOTE "Your clan god interpretation of the Bible is wrong and mocking the bible and I can't take you seriously . Good day." UNQUOTE

Couple of questions :

l. Can you read un-pointed paleoHebrew?

2. Did you go to College or have any plans to take an un-pointed paleoHebrew class in future?

It might help you understand the mangled hand written textual copies of the Hebrew scriptures if you could read the original languages of the 'old testament' i.e. paleoHebrew (e.g. Torah) protoMishnaic (Qoheleth) Hebrew and Aramaic (sections of Daniel and parts of Ezra).

Just a thought.

Good night.

Originally posted by Danbones
so the extermination motif in this case is entirely CHRISTIAN.

reply to post by defcon5

In reference to Jesus coming like a thief in the night .
The book od Daniel chapter 12 says in verse 11 that from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the Abomination of Desolation is set up there shall be 1290 days .
Verse 12 Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand , three hundred and 5 and thirty days . That would be Jesus . I did read some where in the bible that he only waited a little season or no flesh would be saved .
Still unless you have read it and kept vigilant you would never know . You will not know when the above things happen exactly .

reply to post by SimonPeter


I am enjoying very much your discussion with defcon5.

I think defcon5 is correct that you must study varied material beyond Bible and New Testament. And that may involve learning some old languages.

There may be errors in Bible and New Testament that you may not be able to discover otherwise, and this may cloud your judgement.

reply to post by GargIndia


I have studied the theories and found that I did not agree with trying to fit every prophecy with some past event that could possibly be stretched to fit it .The differences between Preterits and Historicism is so small as to be frivelous to me . I simply do not subscribe to that theory . And studying God's bible through college or to be specific a secular institution is counterproductive.