reply to post by defcon5
2000 years ago the Roman Empire removed the Jews from their land,
Correct. But there were many attempts to take it back, all of which were foiled by the governments which controlled that land.
There of course - as reported by Tertullian - was an attempt by Julian "the apostate" to rebuild the Jewish Holy Temple and grant them protected
status in the 4th century.
Then there were attempts in the 13th century, 15th century, 16th, 17th, 18th centuries, all of which amounted to nothing, because who ever ruled the
land forbade the Jews from returning.
All I am saying is there is a collective "debt" on our heads owed to the Jews. The sins of Christian Europe and the Muslim Middle East are
heritable; to claim that the Native Indians are more deserving because they were treated even worse (by what standard? in terms of duration, numbers
killed, and overall humiliation, I'd say the Jews have been treated pretty horribly) by "direct ancestors" (as if that changes the moral ground)
doesn't make sense to me. Why should I be held culpable for what my great great great great great grand father did? If there is any basis for
attributing moral accountability to a present generation for a historical offense, it is through kinship
. The western world inherited the
mantle of Christian civilization. Correspondingly, present-day Islamic peoples should acknowledge the abuses they subjected their Jewish citizens to
(they were many, of course, not on the same scale as in Christian Europe, but being less evil doesn't make it good).
All I am saying is, there should be some continuity between the notion of "repairing" the evils done to women, gays, pagans, atheists, and what was
done to the Jewish people over a 2000 year period.
One could argue that granting them equal status under the law is a form of "reparation", but it is not. Granting them equal status is something due
to all human beings. But as Jews, an ethnic-religious identity, they would not have been "repaired" until their historical land had been restored to
Think on why this is...
I know why that is. It's because we've "established" ourselves here in North America. However, does that exculpate us of wrong doing? Are we in
the moral right, because necessity compels us to ignore an injustice?
I am not advocating abdicating our land to the Native Americans and going back to Europe. However, I do think they are are owed more than what has so
far been given them.
As for the Jews. The situation is different. Immigration to Palestine began in large numbers towards the 1870's. By the first Zionist congress
(1897), western Palestine had over 100,000 Jews, and Jerusalem was a majority Jewish city (70% Jewish). In 2013, Israel is an established fact. Jews
who've grown up there identify themselves more as "Israeli's" than as Jews. To uproot them - as some crassly suggest - would be as much an
"ethnic cleansing" as others have accused the Jews of doing.
On another note, a distinct Palestine identity is a historical fiction. Prior to 1948, the notion of a Palestinian didn't exist. However, as many
argue, post 1948, the Palestine identity has been forged, and therefore, it is an established fact. If one is forced to come to terms with a
Palestinian identity - even though it was created in order to better oppose the Jewish claim to Israel - than likewise, I can't see how one could
ignore the 300,000-500,000 Jews living in the West Bank, who have likewise become an "established fact".
That Mahmoud Abbas has gone on record saying a Palestinian state WOULD NOT let 1 Jew live in Palestine, for such a statement to go without being
condemned, let alone acknowledged, is a pretty amazing example of a double standard.
While Israelis are expected to grant complete political equality to it's Arab citizens (something I absolutely support, and much work still needs to
be done on this front) it's inexcusable to not expect the same from the Palestinians. And yet, they seem to be permitted to share these views.