New report questions Israel's claim of "divine right"

reply to post by SimonPeter

Hi again, Simon -

You wrote: QUOTE

"The differences between Preterits [sic] and Historicism is so small as to be frivelous [sic] to me . I simply do not subscribe to that theory.

And studying God's [sic] bible through college or to be specific a secular institution is counterproductive..."

UNQUOTE

I believe the word you are looking for is spelled PRETERISM (or PRETERIST) from the Latin adverb 'praeter' meaning 'already', 'yet' or 'in addition to' - and refers to those scholars who attribute past events in real history to Hebrew prophecy, especially as applied to the mangled Greek of the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka the Book of Revelation, which is singular, by the way).

The other word you seem to be looking for is spelled FRIVOLOUS from the diminutive Latin adjective 'frivolvs' ('worthless, brittle, unsubstantial').

I'm not sure which 'god' you are referring to - presumably YHWH ('yahweh') the post exilic clan-god of the Jews when you refer to 'god's bible' - but if so, you might want to use the proper name YHWH ; otherwise it would be like using the term 'president' and always expecting people to know that you are always referring to e.g. Millard Fillmore, not bearing in mind that the term 'president' (like the term 'elohim' or 'clan-god') is a TITLE and not a PROPER NAME - and that there were a number of presidents all with different names referring to different personages.

But to assume that a 'college' study (i.e. understanding the linguistic underpinnings) of the Hebrew scriptures (and presumably also the Greek 'new' testament writings) is somehow a waste of time ('counter-productive') for you is nothing but confused & jejune thinking and certainly has no place on any adult ATS discussion.

Why would you even think such a thing ? Especially bearing in mind that 'the bible' was not written in any modern 21st century American English dialect, but in several ancient (now dead) languages (paleoHebrew, protoMishnaic Hebrew, 2nd temple period Aramaic, 1st century Koine Greek etc.) all of which have morphed from their original meanings over time, and which in fact require years of linguistic & historical training to understand what the mangled hand copied texts were trying to say in their own day and within their own primitive Weltanschauung - a world which was then vastly different (and with vastly different pre-conceptions) from the one you now inhabit.

A layman without any serious linguistic training in ancient languages who thinks he can make cogent sense of 'the bible' in modern American English without taking into consideration any of the proper historical and linguistic underpinnings of the original languages that formed the basis for the texts in front of them is living in a fool's paradise, and will forever be flailing his arms around like a duck in a thunderstorm when he tries in vain to digest things beyond his comprehension.

And you dare to imagine that you canhave a meaningful adult ATS discussion about biblical matters when you know sooner or later you will be found out ?

What are you hoping to achieve, exactly, by spouting such childish nonsense such as what you wrote above ?

reply to post by Sigismundus


Well I can see your money was well spent . You learned everything you were taught . I suppose the lost Hebrew dialects were properly deciphered by who ever published it as fact . Chances are that they were not from so far back as things do morph constantly .
I suppose that you actually have studied the Bible , especially the end time prophecy. And I suppose you have also made your assumptions about how the world situation relates to those prophesies .
And lighten up Grammer Cop . After all " canhave " is not a word .

Here's input from an outside source on this thread's topic:

truthtellers.org...

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Here's input from an outside source on this thread's topic:

"Outside" as in from outside this forum but not as in an objective or dispassionate view.
It's just about impossible to understand and full of what would seem as pure deceptiveness to anyone not fully indoctrinated into the cult of Dispensationalism.
For one thing, he relies on the idea of a "Second Coming", which is nowhere in the Bible but was invented as a major component of what was to become later called Eschatology.
Then using that very tenuous proposition as a platform, launches into this bizarre interpretation of Paul's letter to the Romans to say that God expects that all the laws and covenants described in the Old Testament will be carried out by the properly observant Jews, somehow in association with the supposed "Second Coming".
The particular-to-the-author emphasis is that possession of the Country of Palestine is only for the "faithful Jews", which is anti-Christian in that it ignores the main point of the New Testament which is that now, obedience to God is believing in His son.

reply to post by jmdewey60


mATTHEW






No second coming in the bible ?

Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 tells of the second coming . Daniel chapter 12 tells of a second coming . Other scripture tells of Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives and touching his foot down and the mountain divides . Ezekiel 39 tells of the Lord coming to save Israel . The Thousand Year reign is here on earth with Jesus .

reply to post by SimonPeter

No second coming in the bible ?

There is no place in the Bible where you can find the word, Second, followed by the word, Coming. It's not there, sorry, and there is only so much speculation and theorizing. One of those theories was created back in 1800 by a petite nobel (son of a British Naval Admiral, and so his middle name, Nelson, who was his godfather) John Nelson Darby, who hooked up with a rich Baroness who financed his 'sabbatical' to lock himself up in a room for ten years in order to figure out how to come up with a way to turn Christianity on its head. Apparently, the powers looked favorably on his product, and bankrolled his promotion of his theory by staging 'retreats' to posh resorts in Niagara Falls, as 'conferences' for the clergy to listen to his presentations. I have to imagine that the only people who stood to gain from all of this was the Zionists, who had a long range plan to capture Palestine and to drive out the legitimate residents in order to establish a Jewish Utopia.
What this interpretive theory entails is the demise of Christianity by having the whole lot of the adherents to that faith transported off-planet by Jesus, and then it devolves back to the way it was before the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans in 70 AD.

Matthew 24 verses 29 thru 31 tells of the second coming .

Seeing how a "Second Coming" did not happen as predicted "before this generation passes", then we need to look at the clues to see what was meant. Right before the section that you cited, it says that where the corpse lies, there will be eagles. That would signify how this comes about, through the agency of the Romans, over the dead bodies of the people of Jerusalem.
The sign of the Son of Man, we could guess from Jesus' saying that his only sign was the sign of Jonah, which was just his going through the city preaching. The main point of this section seems to be "The Elect" which is what the Jews saw themselves as, but in the context "his elect", in the text, what it has to be is the creation of the church of Jesus.
The darkness and heavens being shaken could be the circumstances involved in the beginning of the great tribulation of the fall of Jerusalem, which was this tremendous storm that blew in at the same time as the Idumeans showed up at the gates seeking to enter, but were locked out while the storm raged on, one which the likes of had never been seen before.

Daniel chapter 12 tells of a second coming .

Everything there can be explained by events described in the Gospels as already having happened.

Other scripture tells of Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives and touching his foot down and the mountain divides .

It does not describe Jesus.

Ezekiel 39 tells of the Lord coming to save Israel .

There is nothing in there about Jesus, and it is a dream or something of Ezekiel, where he was in Babylon during the "exile", envisioning a hypothetical war like the one that devastated Judea, but is like a do-over where in this case, Judea wins. So it is more about how things might happen in a situation where the old religion is reinstituted in Jerusalem but this time the people follow all the rules created by the priesthood in order to maintain favor with the cult god of that temple.

The Thousand Year reign is here on earth with Jesus .

We exist in the reign of Christ right now, which is something that I find particularly a grievous offense with Dispensationalism, which is the denying of the messiahship of Jesus, and his current status of Lord.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Anyone who does not pick and choose Torah verses only supportive of Divine Right, knows that the Abrahamic covenant's title to the land was lost by Divine Decision, based on the massive personal and national sins of both Israel and Judah. God considered Israel and Judah His wives, but divorced them and sent them packing, as is usually done in divorces. This divorcement has not yet been rescinded, and is still in force. Therefore, Palestine belongs to the Palestinians.

edit on 7-5-2013 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

That's not the whole story as good research would show.

Why do people still talk as if Israel is negotiable? Its now a Jewish state. You are all living in the past when you are debating whom it should belong to

reply to post by FreedomEntered

Why do people still talk as if Israel is negotiable? Its now a Jewish state. You are all living in the past when you are debating whom it should belong to

The modern entity calling itself Israel has always been "Jewish".
Whether a minority group can come over from another continent and then declare themselves a state and then deprive the original inhabitants rights within its 'jurisdiction', is what is being debated.
How about Arab immigrants in Norway declaring themselves an Islamic republic? I suppose that you think that is just fine, and if the 'natives' don't like it, the new-Islam faction can just arm themselves and drive them into Sweden.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Hi JM Dewey

You wrote: QUOTE

“There is no place in the Bible where you can find the word, “Second” followed by the word, “Coming.” It's not there, sorry, and there is only so much speculation and theorizing…”

UNQUOTE

The issue is complex: but the term PAROUSIA (‘coming’, ‘advent’ ‘arrival’) does in fact occur in several New Testament writings see Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8, 9; James 5:7, 8; 2 Peter 1:16; 3:4, 12; 1 John 2:28.along with other related words epiphaneia, or Appearance/Manifestation (2 Thes. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1; Titus 2:13)

Also it is clear that an idea of a Return (or Coming) of the Messiah (however vague) following his failed first appearance as an executed seditionist seems to be part of the earliest Kerygma or ‘preaching’ of the earliest 1st century Galilean speaking Nazorean Messianic Jews (later called “Christians”) who had followed R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean during his lifetime with many of his immediate circle.

As you can imagine, it was a shock accompanied by great sadness & disappointment among his immediate circle of followers (some of whom were already vying for ‘key posts in his new Daviddic cabinet’
(see: Matt 20:21 -

Then the mother of the sons of Zavdai comes to ho Iesous with her sons and, kneeling down, asking a [royal] favor of him.“What is that you would have me do for you,?” he asked, and she replied saying “Grant that these two sons of mine may sit at your right and your left hand side when you come into your Kingship…”

i.e. they were all hoping to see the ‘Kingdom of David’ re-instated after so many decades of exile (since 587 BCE) - when quite unexpectedly the Teacher was summarily arrested, tried and executed for armed sedition against Rome (c. Pesach, 36 CE) whereas very soon prior ‘they were expecting the Kingdom to come about at any moment’.

It was even a greater shock and awe to them when their Messianic expectations of a Parousia (‘arrival’ i.e. Coming i.e. on the clouds) began to fade over time as something that was clearly not going to happen during their lifetime despite all the hype about such an event which even coloured the early writings of Saul of Tarsus, and which cast doubts on the accuracy of the prophecies placed into the mouth of the teacher
See : Mark 9:1 (Matthew 16:28 // Luke 9:27) and e.g. Matt 24:34 (also Mark 13:1-37, Luke 21:5-33) :and other related verses

‘Amen Amen I say unto you:

In that Day, there shall appear in the Heavens the sign of the Bar Enasha (‘son of Man’ see Aram. Daniel 7:13ff)
Even as the Lightning flashes from the East towards the West
It shall appear from one end of the Heavens to the other -
And riding upon clouds at the Right hand of the Power
Even alongside the Great [One of] Glory with all of his holy ones with him
At which time he shall send forth his Angels with a Blast of the Battle Trumpet :

And they shall gather together his Elect Ones from the Four Winds,
In order to pass Judgment upon all the Sinners….
Yea, he shall divide the Evil Ones from the Righteous ones
Even as a Shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;
And every eye shall watch him, even those who pierced him
And all the tribes of the Land [of Yisro’el] shall wail because of him

Amen, this Generation now living shall not pass away until all these things have taken place’ –

See e.g. the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel (‘according to Luke’) chapter 21:24,

“They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners by all the gentiles – then Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Goyim until the times of the Amorites are fulfilled – and after the Times of the Gentiles comes to a close, there will be signs in the heavens prior to our Lord's return – yea there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the land of Yisro’el there shall be great distress & confusion among the goyim - the sea and the waves roaring and the hearts of men failing them for fear & for looking after those things which are coming to pass upon the Land of Yisro’el - yea, the powers shall be shaken from their places in the heavens- and after these things shall they ‘watch’ the Bar Enasha coming in a cloud with power and great glory…”

The author of the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel writing c. 90 CE (‘according to Luke’ whoever he was) was also the same author/compiler of the material in ‘Greek Acts’ see: Acts 1:9-11 “Now when he had finished speaking these words, even while they ‘watched’, he was taken up into heaven and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly as he was lifted up, behold, two men stood by them in white tunics saying, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same ho Iesous who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come back in like manner..."

reply to post by Sigismundus

The issue is complex: but the term PAROUSIA (‘coming’, ‘advent’ ‘arrival’) does in fact occur in several New Testament writings see Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8, 9; James 5:7, 8; 2 Peter 1:16; 3:4, 12; 1 John 2:28.along with other related words epiphaneia, or Appearance/Manifestation (2 Thes. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 4:1; Titus 2:13)

I would disqualify:
Titus
Second Thessalonians
2 Peter
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
from being authoritative, as being forgeries.
Once you dispose of those and only look at the authentic writings, the problem goes away.
Parousia I would take as, visitation, used in a way such as a "visitation of Judgment".
That visitation happened as predicted by Jesus.
The system that rejected and handed over to torture and death, Jesus, was destroyed, and remains so to this day.

reply to post by Sigismundus

. . he was taken up into heaven and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly as he was lifted up, behold, two men stood by them in white tunics saying, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same ho Iesous who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come back in like manner..."

Since you seem to have an interest in the Greek text, you should look at the Greek version of this quote.
You should notice a discrepancy when you go word for word, where the English translation skips a lot. If you read it including all the words, you notice that what the men are describing was a mode of transportation,
"by the way that you see him go, he will continue going in that same way", to heaven, meaning not just the heaven where if you were to look hard enough that you could see him up there, but all the way to another heaven, presumably where God is. So the "in that same way" is not describing a second such trip, it is describing how that same trip continues beyond where they lost sight of him.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You have a very special way of looking at things .

Jesus Christ came as the Lamb once I think we can say with out debate . He ascended to the Father until he returns in the clouds and then to rule during the 1000 year reign .
The Lord Jesus is referred to as the Branch , the Vine , the Lamb , the Messiah . Christ will return to save Israel and he also stated he would come as a thief in the night with the caveat that he would come and be seen by everybody . The thief in the night and I come quickly means surprised .
Hebrews chapter 9 , 28th verse " so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation .
2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 3 Knowing this first ,that there shall come in the last days scoffers ; walking after their own lust,
verse 4 And saying,Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation .

You can debate words but the fact is that the bible tells us that Jesus is coming back in the Later days . We are in the later days now .

reply to post by jmdewey60


I can not understand your logic . Actually I can ! If a book in the Bible does not support your theory , that book is disqualified . I guess you might find the Old Testament valid and the New Testament invalid . Do you subscribe to the Talmud also?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Jesus Christ came as the Lamb once I think we can say with out debate .

The Baptist called him that, in one of the Gospels. I doesn't go into detail as to what that means exactly. It could mean that he had a gentle disposition, rather that being on the violent side. That goes with his riding a donkey into Jerusalem, which is not how a warrior would go into battle.

He ascended to the Father until he returns in the clouds and then to rule during the 1000 year reign .

That's a theory. This is what I was saying before, that it does not go into detail like what you are saying, that is someone taking pieces like a puzzle and putting them together.

The Lord Jesus is referred to as the Branch , the Vine , the Lamb , the Messiah .

And . . ?

Christ will return to save Israel

Another theory.

and he also stated he would come as a thief in the night with the caveat that he would come and be seen by everybody . The thief in the night and I come quickly means surprised .

So that is how you get around what Jesus actually said. Coming like a thief in the night is explained by Jesus that it means that you don't know when he is coming. "Quickly" in Rev. 22:12, means "within a short time, soon", according to Danker's Lexicon.

Hebrews chapter 9 , 28th verse " so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation .

"Appear" has nothing to do with going anywhere, at least directly. The Greek word means to be seen. The writer of Hebrews is using as a metaphor, the events described in the Old Testament regarding Yom Kippur. The High Priest goes in, and people expectantly await to see if he comes out from the Most Holy Place alive, which would mean that he was accepted by The Lord.

2nd Peter chapter 3 verse 3 Knowing this first ,that there shall come in the last days scoffers ; walking after their own lust,
verse 4 And saying,Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation .

Which is a later writing, most likely a forgery.

You can debate words but the fact is that the bible tells us that Jesus is coming back in the Later days . We are in the later days now .

Words mean things. Let me know if you have any words from the Bible to back up your theory.
Paul says, in these last days, meaning what happened with Jesus, his death and resurrection, as ushering in the Last Days, which were the last days of the age of the earthly Israelite form of worship. Jesus through his actions on earth, and then in heaven, brought the close of an age and the ushering in of the new age, the age of Christ as king, something your rapture theorists deny. Jesus said he was the Son of Man, which is tied in with a kingdom which will never end.

his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

reply to post by SimonPeter

I can not understand your logic . Actually I can ! If a book in the Bible does not support your theory , that book is disqualified . I guess you might find the Old Testament valid and the New Testament invalid . Do you subscribe to the Talmud also?

I'm not arbitrarily picking and choosing based on what I agree with, but the opinion of biblical scholars who specialize in the field of study to see where books of the Bible come from.
The "Old" is old for a reason, not that it was written earlier, but it is obsolete, made so by the "New".
The Talmud is a good reason to avoid Judaism, which is really just Talmudism.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Lets get to the point . Do you believe that Jesus is the Lord God that came down and was born of flesh per the manner discribed in the New Testament ? That he was half man half God and came to earth to spread his Gospel ? Do you believe that Jesus gave his life as the sacrificial LAMB for the remission of sins . Do you believe in salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ ?
Surely you are not ashamed of your beliefs .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Lets get to the point .

I don't see what your point is unless it is to discredit me since you have no argument.
What you are presenting for my agreement or disagreement is a jumbled up mess of parts of the Bible in a mash-up.
What I believe is what the authentic parts of the New Testament says, meaning what was at least written while the Apostles were still alive.
What you believe is what is presented to you by the rapture theorists.

Divine right my arse..!

To even dare to declare it they should practicing (divine deeds) and their actions against the others in at least past 70 years are anything but divine!

Sorry this time zionazis, Golden calf is not divine to anyone’s book.

Let the divine rights stay at the hands of divine entity!

reply to post by jmdewey60

Sorry to go off-topic, but my reputation as Mr. Confusion is forcing me to do this.

What I believe is what the authentic parts of the New Testament says, meaning what was at least written while the Apostles were still alive.

Of course, you don't mean when Judas was alive. On the other hand, John was alive when the entire New Testament was completed. You seem to be saying that portions of the New Testament which were written after a certain date are inauthentic. Roughly, what is that date?

Could you clarify why you think particular portions were written after that date? Yes, there are some Bible scholars who say nearly everything in the New Testament is fake, but that's a different problem. (Or, at least I think it is.)