reply to post by jmdewey60
Hi JM Dewey
You wrote QUOTE
" Since you seem to have an interest in the Greek text, you should look at the Greek version of this quote. You should notice a discrepancy when you
go word for word, where the English translation skips a lot.
If you read it including all the words, you notice that what the men are describing was a mode of transportation,
"by the way that you see him go, he will continue going in that same way", to heaven, meaning not just the heaven where if you were to look hard
enough that you could see him up there, but all the way to another heaven, presumably where God is.
So the "in that same way" is not describing a second such trip, it is describing how that same trip continues beyond where they lost sight of
I’m not sure where your confusion is in Acts 1:9-11 [ἐλεύσεται = ‘he shall arrive’ see Luke 20:16-18 for the use of the same word:
Also see the Middle Greek Participle πορευόμενον = ‘departing’, ‘travelling’, ‘going away’, ‘leaving’, ‘dying’ etc.
Here is the Greek text of Luke-Acts 1:9-11
οἳ καὶ εἶπαν• ἄνδρες Γαλιλαῖοι, τί ἑστήκατε [ἐμ]βλέποντες εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν;
Lit. "And they said: Men of Galilee, why are you standing looking up into the sky?"
οὗτος ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὁ ἀναλημφθεὶς ἀφ᾽ ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν οὕτως ἐλεύσεται
ὃν τρόπον ἐθεάσασθε αὐτὸν πορευόμενον εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν. =
Lit. ‘this [same] ho Iesous who who has been taken up from you into the sky will return in the same way you have seen him departing into the
Admittedly the hand written copies of the Greek text do not always match word for word - see Codex D (Bezae Biglot) which omits the phrase (en ton
ouranon = 'into the sky') at the end.
The author of the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel and Acts was the same writer/compiler ('Luke' whoever he was) and we assume that he was later than e.g.
the 2nd canonical Gospel, for even he admits ('inasmuch as many have already written down accounts of what has passed among us...it seemed good to me
also to set down in order...") and probably wrote c. 95 CE - at a time when the Parousia was seen to be 'delayed'
The Greek words place into the two angels' mouths in Acts 1:9-11 ('Men of Galilee why are you (still) standing there gazing in to the sky...?')
seem to fit the generation following the destruction of Jerusalem - when the Parousia was seen not to be as imminent as e.g. Paul would believe - and
seem affirm that although ho Iesous will indeed one day come back, he just won't come back any time soon..
And just because an early work is a literary forgery (‘pious fraud’, as are most of the NT Greek books except perhaps some Pauline fragments e,g,
Romans, Galatians, 1st Thessalonians, Philemon & 1 Corinthians) that is, a book or epistle that was not actually written by the person it claims to
have been written by does not mean that the (piously or not) forged document does not at all reflect real beliefs / preconceptions of many of the
earliest messianic Jews (and later, Christians) – the fraudulent Christian writings often tell us more about other variant forms of the many
Christianities out there in the wild in the 1st 200 years of its existence than those sects that later became regarded as 'ortho-dox', i.e. the
Iranaean camp after 180 CE.
So although scholarship would lump e.g. Titus and 2nd Thessalonians as later forgeries written ‘in Paul’s name’ (or 2 Peter, piously written in
Greek in the name of ‘Kephah’) they DO reflect an early Nazorean & Pauline tradition that the executed i.e. a failed Messiah would return in
triumph to judge the sinners which is found elsewhere in the NT e.g. in Luke/Acts.
But even in the 'non-forged' Greek NT Pauline epistles, (c. 51 to 58 CE) we catch a glimpse of this earlier belief in a returning victorious Messiah
at the End of Days
See 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (two epistles which are thought to be mainly 'authentic' except for an odd interpolation or
two) - where Paul expected the Parousia to come quickly i.e. before his death.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-1 7, Paul twice uses the expression,
'WE who are still alive, who are left until the Parousia ('coming') of the Lord', which may be taken to mean 'we Christians who survive until the
A similar idea may be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:51f., where the 'we' that is emphasised in verse 52b ('WE shall all be changed') indicates that
Paul placed himself among the survivors at the Parousia.
These non-forged epistles of Paul (e.g. Romans, 1 Corinithians, Galatians, Philemon & 1 Thessalonians) all seem to share a common literary style &
outlook - and are among the earliest writings in the canonical Greek new Testament - so it is clear that the idea of a 'second coming' of the first
failed/executed Messiah 'in the last days' was part of the earliest Kerygma of the earliest church & not added later.