Why isn't abortion murder?

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posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 03:27 PM
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First of all to the OP im a man and i dabble in things that i can understand we as men will never understand what it is like to birth a child. What in he heck gives us the right to dictate what any woman can and cannot do with her body and the functions that revolve around that. hearing men even taking up this issue is sad to me who cares what your belief is about murder and your moral beliefs. WE AS MEN WILL NEVER KNOW OR BE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE TURMOIL OF CHILD BIRTH. We are men and as men we are supposed to be worrying about more pressing issues and stay out of women's bodies mkay.




posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by GradientWell
 

I understand what you're saying, but at another level it's also absurd to absolve the male of our species from any say in such decision-making simply because we're not the one's who have to birth the child.

Would it be ok then in your opinion if the woman decided (because it's their body) in spite of a healthy pregnancy to have the baby torn out of her womb at the second trimester, and then say diced to piece on a chopping block, or perhaps the more humane way, given a lethal injection?



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Abortion is legal in the US up to 22 weeks. That is well into the 2nd trimester. But you're showing desperation when you talk about a woman taking that fetus and chopping it up. Where do you come up with this stuff? How deranged do you think women who have to get abortions are? Geez!

However, that fetus is scientific gold in the stem cell research community. What happens to the dead body of an aborted fetus is of no concern to me. I don't know why it should be to you.

What does this argument have to do with male rights.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

22 weeks. I didn't know that.

Could make a great industry for the stem cell harvesting I guess..

Personally, I wish it was much lower than that, like only 6 weeks, whereby pregnancy testing, might be part of sex education i.e.: teaching people to test after sex, or at 30 day intervals, and make that available as a health care covered right (access to testing kits).

That's what I would hope for.

22 weeks..? Ugh.

And I was only trying to make the point that this is a human conversation, about a human issue whereby men need not be excluded from the discussion or told to back off and with hold their POV, and from what I've just learned it sounds like there ARE lives at stake.

Hey don't get me wrong I'm a Liberal, but I never really gave this that much thought before, and now I'm freaked out by it. 22 weeks is much too long..



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by windword
 

22 weeks. I didn't know that.

Could make a great industry for the stem cell harvesting I guess..

Personally, I wish it was much lower than that, like only 6 weeks, whereby pregnancy testing, might be part of sex education i.e.: teaching people to test after sex, or at 30 day intervals, and make that available as a health care covered right (access to testing kits).

That's what I would hope for.

22 weeks..? Ugh.

And I was only trying to make the point that this is a human conversation, about a human issue whereby men need not be excluded from the discussion or told to back off and with hold their POV, and from what I've just learned it sounds like there ARE lives at stake.

Hey don't get me wrong I'm a Liberal, but I never really gave this that much thought before, and now I'm freaked out by it. 22 weeks is much too long..



The problem with this is that most women cannot even find out if they are pregnant until after 6 weeks, sometimes even at 8. If there is a low level of hCG in their blood then it is impossible for a positive to even show up on the test strip.

I would give a suggestion that you study up on this stuff first it might help you understand the ins and outs and workings of the female body.

You can't just test for pregnancy after unprotected sex...
Try waiting 6 weeks. In most cases you have to wait until the first day of a missed period. So say you have unprotected sex during ovulation on a 28 day cycle so you ovulated at day 14 you are supposed to be getting your period on day 28 well chances are even if you did conceive on day 14 day 28 is only 2 weeks after that, there is no way that it will show up on a pregnancy test, so you would have to wait another 4 weeks (the first day of your next period) to potentially get a positive which makes it around the 6 week mark... ugh... a woman's body is so complex. I've known women who didn't even find out until 8 to 10 weeks after because their hCG levels were too low for a positive. Some women have irregular cycles so don't even know to test because they think that everything is the same as always. I knew a woman who didn't know she was pregnant until 7 months in! Imagine that surprise. She just thought she was putting on a little chub. 2 months later, healthy little girl was born to 2 frantic college students trying to get ready for a child in 2 months!

EDIT: To you ladies out there if I messed any of that up about the ovulation stuff then correct me! I've been a woman for 27 years and I still have yet to have a fully confident grasp on all of it.
edit on 16-1-2013 by seeker11 because: (no reason given)


I can't begin to imagine nor do I really care to know how much money I must have spent on pregnancy tests throughout the years. An atrocious amount to be sure! at 9 bucks a pop (or more) for peace of mind *sigh*

I can say that the minute I find out I am pregnant I would be taking care of it immediately, and I like to think most women would be doing the same. To think that most women would be actually wanting to abort a fetus later as opposed to earlier is just silliness.

Here is a little bit about when it is best done.


A termination of pregnancy is best done between eight and 12-weeks of pregnancy. Before this the gestation sac is so small that it can be missed, and later than this the procedure is more complicated. Read more:


www.netdoctor.co.uk...


Later Abortions The earlier an abortion is provided the safer it is, because earlier abortions are less complicated. Therefore, it is important that women who decide to get abortions can do so without unnecessary delays. In fact, 88% of all abortions in the United States are obtained within the first 12-13 weeks after the last menstrual period (LMP). Sometimes, however, women have compelling reasons to obtain abortions in later weeks.


www.prochoice.org...

You can go on to read reasons why a woman might not have any control over a later abortion as well...

As for 3rd trimester abortions here's this little bit...


Third Trimester Abortions Despite the claims of some anti-abortion activists, women have access to abortion in the third trimester only in extreme circumstances. Fewer than 2% of abortions are provided at 21 weeks or after, and they are extremely rare after 26 weeks of pregnancy. Very few abortions are provided in the third trimester, and they are generally limited to cases of severe fetal abnormalities or situations when the life or health of the pregnant woman is seriously threatened.


So there ya go. Hope that helps alleviate some fears about abortions done at 22 weeks. Fewer than 2%.
edit on 16-1-2013 by seeker11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by seeker11
 


Actually, scientists have recently discovered that a woman can ovulated up to 3 times per cycle, and ovulation is often related to arousal. Just thinking about sex that you had 3 days ago could cause ovulation, and that sperm can live up 5 days in the vaginal canal.


"It's been assumed until now that women have just one wave per monthly cycle, leading to one ovulation, but nobody has actually carried out detailed analysis before," said Roger Pierson, who led the study. "In fact, all the women in our study had at least two waves and 30 per cent of them had three."
www.newscientist.com...



Sperm ejaculated into a woman's vagina can live in a woman's cervical mucus or upper genital tract for three to five days. Fertilization is possible as long as the sperm remain alive.
www.mayoclinic.com...



Conception can occur as many as five days after sex or possibly longer, as strong, healthy sperm can survive for about that many days (and perhaps even longer) in the supportive environment of the fallopian tubes as they wait for an egg to be released, if one isn't already present [source: Harms].
health.howstuffworks.com...



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by seeker11
 


Actually, scientists have recently discovered that a woman can ovulated up to 3 times per cycle, and ovulation is often related to arousal. Just thinking about sex that you had 3 days ago could cause ovulation, and that sperm can live up 5 days in the vaginal canal.



NOOOOOO lol
The women in my family are seriously way too fertile, my mother had 5 children, the last 3 unplanned and while on bc or other protection.

Both my sister and I got pregnant while on bc.

It seriously would be just my luck to ovulate 3 times a month. LOL



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by seeker11
 

Thanks. Star. That was very informative and helpful. I knew about this stuff to a degree, but I was under the illusion that you can test after sex like the next day or something, so thanks for clarifying!

It's just when I saw this thread and on giving it some consideration, I can't get the thought out of my head of the little buddha forming within, becoming a being, having perhaps chosen this abode to break forth into this domain.. and then getting ripped off I guess you could say.

You must admit that 22 weeks is well along in the gestation cycle, but thanks for clarifying what the earlier limit really is.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by seeker11
 


Yep, I was on BC when I conceived my daughter.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by seeker11
 

Yep, I was on BC when I conceived my daughter.

Is she still with us and if so, do you like her? Was it worth it?

(you know I'm just half kidding around i hope)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:31 PM
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It is. The more we come to understand about human development and the more educated people become about the development the more horrifying the act becomes.

Pretty much any way you define life at this point can be answered yes in womb after about 8 weeks. Is there brain activity? Yes. Does it react to oustside stimulus? Yes. Does it consume and waste? Yes.

I used to be rabidly prochoice and then I started learning about human development.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Keeping my daughter was something that I had to fight for. I was 18 when I found out I was pregnant and my parents and my church clergy kicked me out of my small town, Pentecostal home and church because I refused to have an abortion. I lost my waitress job, that I had at the time, because it was legal to fire a woman who was pregnant in those days. I was refused unemployment insurance because, staying pregnant was a "choice" that I made, according to the law.

I went on public assistance and my welfare worker harassed me and yelled at me both in her office and during home visits, in public assisted housing, to have an abortion until I was past the limit.

Many times I experienced disgust, pity and downright rebuke for the choice that I made, and as a single mother it only got worse. My daughter was treated like the neighborhood shanty girl and some households wouldn't allow her to come inside. Doctor's, nurses, check out clerks and teachers all treated us with less than Christian kindness.

My daughter has all kinds of degrees and PHD's now and is a professor at a major university and heads a globally renown lab. She's the best thing that ever happened to me, but one was enough, thank you.

I wouldn't force or coerce an abortion on anyone, but I wouldn't take their right to have one away either.
edit on 16-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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Same reason why sex isn't rape with consenting adults.

It's a personal decision and everybody needs to get their noses out of everyone elses life. That's what's wrong with this world. If you don't believe in abortion then, live by that rule. Don't involve yourself in other people's business if it is NOT affecting you.


I personally can live more peacefully knowing a fetus was terminated than a toddler abused!



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by Human_Alien



I personally can live more peacefully knowing a fetus was terminated than a toddler abused!




And that sums it up quite nicely for me! Well said.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Ah WOW! That's quite the story and heart wrenching, but with an absolutely triumphant note, amazing, thanks for sharing that. Congratulations btw, very heroic! You are both very lucky to have one another.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by Raxoxane
 


I agree very much and I am happy you understand the importance of making Morning After, Plan B and other forms of next day contraception easily available to all females without roadblocks that either embarrass a woman or make it so difficult to get that a woman may make the mistake of waiting and burrying their heads in the sand.

One thing I wish people could understand is that OF COURSE A FERTILIZED EGG IS ALIVE. Life existed even before the egg is fertilized as both Human Egg Cell and Sperm Cell are both completely seperate from the body existing independent life forms.

Still this fact should not place any greater value upon these all too common Human Cells as their value is no greater now days given the current level and ability for Geneticists to create these cells by Genetic Manipulation in the same way we can now create Stem Cells from a variety of different Human Cells.

Living Cells are common place and are alive as we kill, eat, harvest and use Living Cells in a huge variety of ways. They are all alive and one type of Living Cell should not have any greater value than any other Living Cell.

The true issue is at what moment does a group of developing cells develop a working brain that is SENTIENT. Some here have placed that time at a rediculous early stage and it is fact that a developing human brain may be capable of running a fetus' core systems in conjunction with the Mother...but it does not mean that a Brain in a Fetus is immediately Sentient.

This creation of Sentience by a developing brain reaching a certain age and complexity has not been adequately determined and we should figuere out this moment plus or minus several days or a week. Such information could help in either way how a woman will decide to either have an abortion or not.

Split Infinity



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


Sorry, I don't support safe environments for killing people.

It is going to take a "Life Begins at Conception Act" to dismantle Roe v Wade and given the liberal justices on the Bench of the SCOTUS I think is will be tough as heck to do.

Obama loves children. They make great props for his Executive Order gun ban press conference.


BTW there will be a half million people at the 40th annual March for Life in D.C.with another major march on the West Coast and the Monstrously Sinister Media won't even mention it.

A Nation Rises - March for Life



Over 54 millions Americans killed (aka aborted) in the U.S. since Roe v Wade with over 3,000 more added to the number daily.

Yes Mr. Obama, we got it wrong.
edit on 1/16/2013 by sad_eyed_lady because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 





It is going to take a "Life Begins at Conception Act" to dismantle Roe v Wade and given the liberal justices on the Bench of the SCOTUS I think is will be tough as heck to do.


"Tough as heck" doesn't begin to tell it. What you are suggestion, the "Life Begins at Conception Act" will NEVER happen. It can't happen because it is tantamount to creating a large population of women, of child bearing age, who are slaves to reproduction and their biology.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by GradientWell
 

I understand what you're saying, but at another level it's also absurd to absolve the male of our species from any say in such decision-making simply because we're not the one's who have to birth the child.

Would it be ok then in your opinion if the woman decided (because it's their body) in spite of a healthy pregnancy to have the baby torn out of her womb at the second trimester, and then say diced to piece on a chopping block, or perhaps the more humane way, given a lethal injection?


I dont care what kind of argument you have man they have rights that we cannot encroach upon. Inalienable rights that should be challenged IMHO



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by rimjaja
 


I think Americans are busy adopting babies from other countries , also having unwanted children is a proven way to increase the crime rate . My thoughts on this subject are, there is no life experience with a fetus . No memories , thoughts or any experience with life other than floating in fluid . So not much of a HUMAN experience at all . I do know that a fetus is attached to the womans body and is hers to do with what she will . I for one am not religious at all . So that whole soul thing is laughable to me . Until it breathes on its own and is not part of anothers body , well its just not a person yet . Thanks for reading my view , remember its my view so a reply is not needed . I am not here to argue with anyone and I wont . Good luck with the turmoil you are creating for yourself . And thank you for giving me something to do while waiting for dinner to get done .





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