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Why isn't abortion murder?

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posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio
reply to post by windword
 


your long answer can be whittled down to...
the fetus does not have a 'Born On' date

all legal entities have a 'birth', be the entities corporations or humans

 



and in response to the post above mine...{paraphrase} pregnant woman & baby dies= 2 murders{/}

the pregnant woman is the legal party...and had full intentions of birthing the baby...thus 2 lives were taken, but only one legal entity was denied their civil rights, both to live themselves and to birth the baby
edit on 16-1-2013 by St Udio because: (no reason given)


Methinks your response belongs in the "whacky answers" forum - you aren't making any sense. And please do not bother trying to clarify your comment - it'll only make you look worse.

BTW - let me ask the other sensible readers - suppose the woman gets shot and killed on her way to the abortion clinic? So much for the "woman's intentions" right?
edit on 16-1-2013 by Itaska because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Itaska
Has it been mentioned yet that if a murderer shoots and kills a pregnant woman the perpetrator of the crime is doubly charged unless the child is saved through surgery or otherwise. Now why is that?

C'mon now - let's hear from all of you out there who claim that the child that lives within the mother is not a human person, but merely a blob of useless non-living flesh - and believe me that's what the abortionists actually claim.

To even make such a claim is a sign of an extremely low level of intelligence - it defies common sense on all levels of human understanding.




edit on 16-1-2013 by Itaska because: none


Exactly. The hypocrisy knows no bounds!



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by marbles87
 


NO, sex isn't all about having kids. It a biological urge. It's an expression of love and of the human need for physical intimacy and affection.

Sex is important to mental health and it's fun. It's a form of entertainment.

Sex is important for biological health as well.
Masturbating may protect against prostate cancer
Not just good, but good for you

Honestly you sound like a puritan who thinks that sex should be performed by women as a duty, to have children, and any other reason is a sin.



You are missing the point completely. I have had sex with more women and more times than I can count but not once did I ever think "if this girl gets pregnant I will have her get an abortion" I know the act I am commiting I know that there is a chance that the girl gets pregnant even on birth control or with a condom. I take responibility for the act I preformed. But what you are saying is just have sex with whoever because you can kill the kid if you don't want it.

If you jump out of an airplane with a parachute be prepared to die something goes wrong if you are not, don't jump. If you have sex and something goes wrong be prepared to be a parent if not then don't have sex. I like how masterbation = sex between two people.
edit on 16-1-2013 by marbles87 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 09:38 AM
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3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities;


So society is committing genocide of the unwanted unborn at that level because they will be inconvenienced.
That is really pathetic.
And to answer the OP, you know why this has never gone anywhere, because it's women's rights against the unborns rights.

Who has a louder voice ?
Who has more political power ?
Who votes ?

Exactly !
edit on 16-1-2013 by Blue_Jay33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by Itaska
 





Has it been mentioned yet that if a murderer shoots and kills a pregnant woman the perpetrator of the crime is doubly charged unless the child is saved through surgery or otherwise. Now why is that?


It is a double standard indeed. I think foetal homicide laws should be synchronised with abortion limit. They already usualy depend on trimester, it just often isnt consistent with abortion legislation because consistency is not something our lawmakers are good at..
edit on 16/1/13 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 10:41 AM
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How is this subject front page soo often anyhow? Guess it couldn't be added to one of the 56 million other threads asking the same thing.

Anyhow, will toss my view in here also I guess.

Abortion is to murder
what masturbation is to mass murder.
Both potential life

But life is thought, and until there is actual brain functions and thinking, then it is not alive...in the same way someone clinically braindead is not alive, even if machines (in this case, the body of a mother) is keeping it alive.

Now, once brain functions are enabled..then sure..its murder..hense why late term abortions are and should be illegal unless it endangers the physical well being of the mother.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 10:53 AM
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Why isn't abortion murder?,

It IS murder. One human stopping another humans heart from beating is murder. It's legalized murder but people don't want to see the truth of that. Sad but true.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
Abortion is to murder what masturbation is to mass murder.
Both potential life

That's silly.

A baby murdered by abortion isn't 'potential life' .. he or she was ALREADY LIFE. Feeling pain ... playing with his or her toes ... opening and closing his or her eyes ... smiling ... yawning ... sleeping .. waking ...

Masterbation kills no one .. no one has their heart stopped .. no one is painfully shredded alive or burned alive.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Why isn't abortion murder?,

It IS murder. One human stopping another humans heart from beating is murder. It's legalized murder but people don't want to see the truth of that. Sad but true.


By your qualifications (life is only a heartbeat, not a brain), then life simply does not start at conception..or for a few weeks actually.

See, that's the issue, isn't it. Your simple answer just dissolved the whole conception claim. This is a unprincipled response from emotion. Also a good reason why emotional thinking is always, always a bad idea when considering law...you just destroyed the conservative platform on this.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Abortion is to murder what masturbation is to mass murder.
Both potential life

That's silly.

A baby murdered by abortion isn't 'potential life' .. he or she was ALREADY LIFE. Feeling pain ... playing with his or her toes ... opening and closing his or her eyes ... smiling ... yawning ... sleeping .. waking ...

Masterbation kills no one .. no one has their heart stopped .. no one is painfully shredded alive or burned alive.



Feeling pain, playing with toes, opening and closing eyes, all that stuff..yep, that would be life
and that comes in the second trimester, after a fully functioning central nervous system and the brain going from rudimentary setup to the "on" switch

Which doesn't happen at conception.

I don't deny some abortion is equal to murder..I call that late term abortion, in which case I wonder why its called abortion as your not stopping anything, your ending at that point...abortion means to stop before it happens..in this case, life. and your qualifications are the same as mine..thinking (as per your examples). Abortion can only happen before life.

So, what is life then..the big question..what makes us different than a tumor or amoeba...its thought...its something more than basic reflex..it is eyes closing, feeling pain, etc...

See, you and I are on the same page philosophically, then we separate when it comes to the actual facts..you go into emotion, I go into cold hard facts...I suggest (of course) that I am right here..no thought, no life.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by PassiveObserver
 


boobies and milk



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
Your simple answer just dissolved the whole conception claim.

That's a whole other discussion ...

Basic fact .. one human being stopping the beating heart of another human being.
That's murder. Plain and simple. Murder.
There is a heart beat 22 days after conception.
It isn't picked up and seen on ultrasound until about 6 weeks after conception.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by tallcool1
 


The Op of this thread is trying to force the label 'murder' onto abortion. Murder is illegal. It is punishable all the way up to death.

To call it murder is to say people should be prosecuted for it. That is an attempt to force a view


Hey there Cap -

I had to leave abruptly yesterday and did not get to finish our little "debate". I really did not have the time to get back on until now. I just wanted to finish up by saying that you and I clearly have differing views on this whole issue. I honestly do understand your opinion, I just don't agree. While I do see the need for some rare cases of abortion to be allowed (in my opinion) for rape, incest, medical issues, etc. I would much rather my tax dollars funded education and free birth control to whoever wants it. And for what it's worth, I don't support the death penalty either, so even if abortion was ever made illegal (which I seriously doubt would ever happen) - I would not support the death penalty as a form of punishment.

The following is my "old guy" rant:

This countries young people (roughly 30 years old and younger) have serious issues understanding personal responsibility. And I know I'm generalizing and that not all young people are like this, but for the most part they have been raised to believe that there are no consequenses for their actions and that they are "owed" everything - simply because their parents didn't choose to abort them. If you have an urge, satisfy it immediately and someone else will pay the consequenses for you...sorry for my little rant here, but I fully believe lack of responsibility is the root cause of this issue and most of the rest of Americas problems.

End rant.

Regardless of our differing opinions, I did give you a star. Even though I disagree with you, I can still applaud you for standing firm on your view and debating fairly respectfully - especially for such an emotional topic. But I think I will check out of this thread now. I may come back and read more, but I don't see the point in all of us on each "side" regurgitating the same replies over and over. No one is going to change someone elses views in this thread.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Heart is just a pump, I dont think thats what makes us persons. Or would people with artificial hearts and thus no heartbeat cease to be persons?

Higher brain activity is a better criterion for personhood. And that happens around 20 weeks of fetal development.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Your simple answer just dissolved the whole conception claim.

That's a whole other discussion ...

Basic fact .. one human being stopping the beating heart of another human being.
That's murder. Plain and simple. Murder.
There is a heart beat 22 days after conception.
It isn't picked up and seen on ultrasound until about 6 weeks after conception.


So, your not one for euthanasia then?
Incidently, we can have a person with a removed brain continue to have a heartbeat through machines...so, therefore nobody should ever die considering we can forever keep a heart artificially pumping.
edit on 16-1-2013 by SaturnFX because: added a thing about something



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Heart is just a pump, I dont think thats what makes us persons. Or would people with artificial hearts and thus no heartbeat cease to be persons?

Higher brain activity is a better criterion for personhood. And that happens around 20 weeks of fetal development.

Higher brain function is a sliding scope.
I suggest the first non reactionary brain response is the moment a person is alive...which comes anytime after the central nervous system is "enabled". This is around the 12-16 week timeframe..I caution on the early...basically after 12 weeks, the decision has been made and only in some severe circumstances should the killing be allowed.
(ya, I said killing...I stand by my understanding...thinking life is a person, and you cannot abort a person..you can only kill them...note I also don't say murder).



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by tallcool1[/I
While I do see the need for some rare cases of abortion to be allowed (in my opinion) for rape, incest, medical issues, etc.

I know you weren't addressing me, but I feel the need to interject here
Why is that different? Its a inconvenience for the mother? Is is the fault of what is growing inside what happened?
See, this is what happens when you have a moral view of abortion, but not a principled view..you get these strange loopholes and oddness.
What about date rape? What about semi-rape where a person was really really drunk and was arguably out of control, etc..
No...its all the same..stand on a principle based in understanding biology..toss away the weird sliding scale morality..else your eventually going to sound like a lawyer with contingencies, loopholes, way out's, etc.



I would much rather my tax dollars funded education and free birth control to whoever wants it.


Likewise. I would like a free to all (citizens and visitors) birth control frankly...if we could do it globally, perfect..especially in overcrowded areas like china and india (the actual overpopulation issue areas)



The following is my "old guy" rant:

This countries young people (roughly 30 years old and younger) have serious issues understanding personal responsibility.

-sits beside you and also shakes cane at durned youth
Ya! Why can't they be responsible like me..post 30s...instead of being exactly like me, pre 30s.
heh
(do take a moment to remember yourself and your friends in your tweens...its exactly the same..go talk to some of em..you may be surprised that behind their outward devil may care exterior, they are actually about as equally responsible as we were at their age also...some more, some less, but equal nonetheless.
Some look at my niece as the epitome of youthful ignorant entitled type. I know her as (besides the fluff attributes she thinks is appropriate to display in public) the girl whom holds down a job, going to university full time, gets stuff from her finances along with paying rent and other bills, and has been accepted to Delta, so is in the process of transferring the rest of her studys to online so she can continue towards her degree while she is flying.
And she is, by outside standards, that typical facebook lalala who is the president type.
So..ya..it really is just a old man rant verses any truism..and no..she is not the exception. I could go on about her friends also, and frankly, they all seem far more motivated and responsible in their young 20s than I was, or any of my friends...
What your complaining about is a meme...a horribly inaccurate stereotype that has been around for thousands of years.

That's all..sorry I interrupted the convo you were having.



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by neoholographic
 

According to some ancient wisdom literature, like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the soul incarnates through the pineal gland at the 49th day of gestation.

IF, and I realize it's an if, but if there's a karmic circle of life, or even a soul incarnating from somewhere just imagine how shameful it is, if that soul's incarnation (which many believe is a choice) is then terminated, simply because of nothing more or less than an inconvenience to the mother, father or both..?!

Now scale that up to 75,000,000 abortions and then tell me that that doesn't, in some way, shape or form, "short circuit" the cycle of human life..

I'm not so sure about overturning Roe vs. Wade, but surely, what I would call the pro-life choice ought to be encouraged wherever and whenever possible to the highest degree possible, to encourage the pregnant woman to carry the baby to term and then if need be, to give the baby up for adoption.

And if there's anything to this karmic circle of life stuff, then is it any wonder why the whole nation is hurting and in some ways falling apart at the seams..?

edit on 16-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by neoholographic

Originally posted by Itaska
Has it been mentioned yet that if a murderer shoots and kills a pregnant woman the perpetrator of the crime is doubly charged unless the child is saved through surgery or otherwise. Now why is that?

C'mon now - let's hear from all of you out there who claim that the child that lives within the mother is not a human person, but merely a blob of useless non-living flesh - and believe me that's what the abortionists actually claim.

To even make such a claim is a sign of an extremely low level of intelligence - it defies common sense on all levels of human understanding.




edit on 16-1-2013 by Itaska because: none


Exactly. The hypocrisy knows no bounds!


Except that its already been explained at least 3 times in this thread, and you simply choose to ignore it



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by tallcool1
 


Not a problem. I appreciate the way you conduct yourself in the discussion.

You and I are actually probably a lot closer in the way we think than you realize. I, too, waould like my tax dollars focused more on things like education, and contraception availability, and things of that nature than abortions. But I actually go a bit further than that. I think women's healthcare should be provided for by tax dollars. No woman should ever have to worry about whether or not she can get the care needed, whether it be regular gyno appointments, free birth control, pre-natal care....all of it. There should be no tax on the the body, and thats exactly what it is everytime a woman has to pay to get care for the body's natural cycles.

In a perfect world, there is no need for a single abortion. But even in that world, I will still support a woman's right to choose. Not just because it is what I feel is right, but because of what it stands for. I simply will never agree to let a governing authority have final say in what we can do with the one thing we truly own-our bodies.

I also agree with your 'rant'. There is a major lack of responsibility in the younger people in this country. And you know where it started? With that generation's parents. Its all cyclical. We need to strive to be better as a society, to combat these things.





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