The true story behind the bible

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

You are very ignorant whereof you speak. Check out the Ancient Mysteries thread. You'll learn something. But oh wait, since you already know everything, you won't bother to do your research.

I'm still trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be researching. You lied and claimed I said that "Christians invented holy water", so I'm still waiting to hear your refutation of that. What would the "Ancient Mysteries" thread have to do with what you claimed I said?

reply to post by adjensen

The "bearer of water" thing is symbolic of the Christian attachment to water as a spiritual and cleansing thing,

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Nothing in that post is scientific -- it's conjecture and interpretation and claiming that astrology is, in any way, scientific, demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of science.

Did ancient people use stars and constellations for navigation, marking the passage of time, as well as mysticism? Sure. Does it mean that everything mystical from that time revolves around the stars? No, of course not.

The procession of the equinox is a proven scientific fact.

Yes, it is.

The existence of the constellations is a scientific fact.

Yes and no. The existence of stars is a scientific fact. The fact that humans have associated groups of stars with images is an historical, not scientific fact, as is the fact that people have mythologized twelve of them. Apart from this association, the stars of a constellation are otherwise disassociated from each other, making them a purely anthropomorphic phenomenon.

The interpretation of the meaning and influence of the constellations and their ages on man, is and has always been a religious interpretation.

Correct - not science.

The documentation of the Ancients' knowledge of the procession of the equinox is well documented. The religions and origins of the religions of ancient peoples is well known and is based on astrological interpretations of the heavenly bodies.

This scholarly information is scientifically proven and not up for debate among researchers.

Again, this is historical information, not science, and none of it speaks to your claims that astrology is somehow scientific, or that the Bible is rife with astrological themes. You are welcome to make those points, please.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

 

The "bearer of water" thing is symbolic of the Christian attachment to water as a spiritual and cleansing thing,

... and this is "Christians invented holy water" how?

You know, if you have to lie to make a point, maybe you don't have a point

reply to post by adjensen


I NEVER said that astrology is scientific.

The day is divided into 2 sets of 12 hours. That isn't scientific either, but we all agree on the hourly theme. The stars in the sky are real and we have agreed on the division of 12 constellations. They are as real as an hour in the day.

How their mythological influences are interpreted is done through religions. We know that ancient religions referenced astrological symbolism. This is fact.

It's now your choice to deny ignorance or not.

reply to post by adjensen

Again, this is historical information, not science, and none of it speaks to your claims that astrology is somehow scientific, or that the Bible is rife with astrological themes. You are welcome to make those points, please.

Anthropology is a science.

In the United States, anthropology is traditionally divided into four sub-fields, each with additional branches: biological or physical anthropology, social anthropology or cultural anthropology, archaeology and anthropological linguistics. These fields frequently overlap, but tend to use different methodologies and techniques.

[edit]Cultural Anthropology
Cultural anthropology is also called socio-cultural anthropology or social anthropology. It is the study of culture, and is based mainly on ethnography. Ethnography can refer to both a methodology and a product of research, namely a monograph or book. Ethnography is a grounded, inductive method that heavily relies on participant-observation. Ethnology involves the systematic comparison of different cultures. The process of participant-observation can be especially helpful to understanding a culture from an emic point of view, which would otherwise be unattainable by simply reading from a book. In some European countries, all cultural anthropology is known as ethnology (a term coined and defined by Adam F. Kollár in 1783).[5]

The study of kinship and social organization is a central focus of cultural anthropology, as kinship is a human universal. Cultural anthropology also covers economic and political organization, law and conflict resolution, patterns of consumption and exchange, material culture, technology, infrastructure, gender relations, ethnicity, childrearing and socialization, religion, myth, symbols, values, etiquette, worldview, sports, music, nutrition, recreation, games, food, festivals, and language (which is also the object of study in linguistic anthropology).

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I NEVER said that astrology is scientific.

Okay, I'm glad that we can put that behind us -- astrology is not science.

The day is divided into 2 sets of 12 hours. That isn't scientific either, but we all agree on the hourly theme.

Not so fast there, Ace. The day is divided into 24 hours, not 2 sets of 12 hours. Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

The stars in the sky are real and we have agreed on the division of 12 constellations. They are as real as an hour in the day.

No. Astrology has 12 constellations. But Ptolemy identified 48 constellations, the IAU currently identifies 88 of them. And your 12 ARE NOT REAL. The belief that they are there is real, the identification of them is an historical fact, but there is no structure there! If you got in a rocket and flew light years away from the Earth, your constellations would be gone because your point of view had switched. The stars that make up the perceived image are still there, but the image is gone. That doesn't happen with real things.

Regardless, none of this gets us one millimeter closer to finding astrological themes running throughout the Bible.

What Jesus taught and what Christianity became are two different things. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within (Luke 17:21). However, the elite co-opted his teachings and made it into a slave religion based on obedience and submission. Instead of experiencing God, his teachings were perverted into a bureaucracy (God, boss’s son, King, Nobles, us). If people knew that God is within them every bureaucracy will crumble.
The OP is correct!
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it." (113)
“Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you…When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.” (3)
He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment." (91)
“Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised.]" (5)
“"For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness." (61)
“Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move." (106)
“Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty." (29)
FROM
www.gnosis.org...
Unfortunately, such a message had to be hid. Jesus knew that it would take time for his message to be accepted and that the pragmatic approach was to release his message gradually. He knew that the elite would try to squash his message. *
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luke 8:10
“Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.” (39)

PS: To see how absurd the conventional interpretation of Christianity is, consider one of its basic doctrines, “faith”. I have never understood faith and why it is a good thing. Suppose I am a child and live with my brother. Upstairs is a room that is locked and no sound comes from it. My brother tells me that I should have faith that our father is alive and lives in that room. Everyday criminals break in, steal our stuff and beat us up. My brother tells me that I should have faith that our father loves us and is not leaving the room to help us because its in our best interest, its just that we don't know why he doesn't leave the room or say anything. After ten years Dad comes out of the room and says to my brother, " Both of you are good people. However I only love you because you had faith that I existed but your brother will be tortured for eternity because he had doubts that I was in the room."


* And he was right! Entire gospels were censored. However, a few passages made it into the elite sanitized Bible. For example www.biblegateway.com... and www.biblegateway.com... . (There are many more examples. However, for now space and time does not permit their inclusion in this post).
Many Christian Saints and respected thinkers drew upon Christ’s suppressed message. Just one example, en.wikipedia.org... who wrote, “"Thou shalt know him [God] without image, without semblance and without means. But for me to know God thus, with nothing between, I must be all but he, he all but me. I say God must be very I, I very God, so consummately one that this he and this I are one ‘is’, in this is-ness working one work eternally.”

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Again, this is historical information, not science, and none of it speaks to your claims that astrology is somehow scientific, or that the Bible is rife with astrological themes. You are welcome to make those points, please.

Anthropology is a science.

Yes, it is a social science (as is history,) but you are not representing your claims as an anthropologist would. You are speculating, not providing evidence -- I doubt that any actual historian, anthropologist or any other scholar would say that your quotes pulled from the Bible actually demonstrated a connection to Astrological Ages, but if they did, they would back it up with evidence, not just throwing it out there and claiming some sort of casual connection.

In case there is a misunderstanding, when I agree with Christ that God is within I am not saying that one’s ego is all-powerful. The idea that everything is God is actually a humbling experience.
www.biblegateway.com...

en.wikipedia.org...
When taken literally (as fundamentalists do) myths are absurd. The ancients spoke in metaphors (like poets), to take them literally is like looking for an eagle called liberty, the profound message of the image becomes absurd.
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I NEVER said that astrology is scientific.

Okay, I'm glad that we can put that behind us -- astrology is not science.

The day is divided into 2 sets of 12 hours. That isn't scientific either, but we all agree on the hourly theme.

Not so fast there, Ace. The day is divided into 24 hours, not 2 sets of 12 hours. Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Oh for heaven's sake! You are so obtuse! Is it not 1 o'clock twice a day? Doesn't a clock have 12 divisions?

The stars in the sky are real and we have agreed on the division of 12 constellations. They are as real as an hour in the day.

No. Astrology has 12 constellations. But Ptolemy identified 48 constellations, the IAU currently identifies 88 of them. And your 12 ARE NOT REAL. The belief that they are there is real, the identification of them is an historical fact, but there is no structure there! If you got in a rocket and flew light years away from the Earth, your constellations would be gone because your point of view had switched. The stars that make up the perceived image are still there, but the image is gone. That doesn't happen with real things.

The Zodiac has 12 signs.

zo·di·ac   [zoh-dee-ak] Show IPA
noun
1.
an imaginary belt of the heavens, extending about 8° on each side of the ecliptic, within which are the apparent paths of the sun, moon, and principal planets. It contains twelve constellations and hence twelve divisions called signs of the zodiac. Each division, however, because of the precession of the equinoxes, now contains the constellation west of the one from which it took its name. Compare sign of the zodiac.

Regardless, none of this gets us one millimeter closer to finding astrological themes running throughout the Bible.[

Not true. The Bible, as well as other mythical texts, such as Homer's Iliad,are littered with astrological symbolism of the zodiac and other constellations as well. One must only do a little research and open ones mind to see the relationship. Alas, these are attributes that many Christians lack.

reply to post by wittgenstein


Wonderful post! Star for you.

Jesus was not 'gods only son' as the bible states, he was only one of many sons and daughters of god. We are all the children of god and we are all gods ourselves.

You are right, if Jesus' true message got out then the power the church has over billions of people would be lost in an instant, and they couldn't have that.

They wanted more power so they hid most of his true message away in vaults and what they did release, they bastardized to the point of almost not being recognizable.

We are the creators of the universe in a sense, because our brains create the images and sensations that we feel and smell. If you were never born, this universe would not exist from your perspective, because you would not have the ability to perceive the universe.

We are created in gods image because we are made up of all the elements of this universe. Any thing you can find within our bodies you can find anywhere else in the universe.

The universe truly is the kingdom of god and anyone who believes the opposite is only removing themselves from god in a metaphorical sense. Religion encourages this because if we do not believe we are in heaven now, we do not care what happens to our planet because this isn't as real as it gets, what's after this life is the 'real' heaven.

The real god, nature, does not require worship. When is the last time a tree or a rock asked for your worship? The only thing that desires to be worshiped is man because he wants you to feel inferior so that he may feel superior.

Please wake up people, you are willfully following a lie and that lie allows those in power to take advantage of you and your mother Earth.

WAKE UP!!!

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I NEVER said that astrology is scientific.

Okay, I'm glad that we can put that behind us -- astrology is not science.

The day is divided into 2 sets of 12 hours. That isn't scientific either, but we all agree on the hourly theme.

Not so fast there, Ace. The day is divided into 24 hours, not 2 sets of 12 hours. Regardless, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Oh for heaven's sake! You are so obtuse! Is it not 1 o'clock twice a day? Doesn't a clock have 12 divisions?

Not if you are in the Army

Point is that the day is broken into 24 units, the "it's 1 o'clock twice in one day" bit is because clocks are round, and 24 divisions on most clocks are impractical. If we had digital watches before they decided the number of divisions to display, it would have been 24, not 12 twice.

The Zodiac has 12 signs.

Who cares? Again, what does that have to do with anything?

Regardless, none of this gets us one millimeter closer to finding astrological themes running throughout the Bible.

Not true. The Bible, as well as other mythical texts, such as Homer's Iliad,are littered with astrological symbolism of the zodiac and other constellations as well.

All I have seen thus far are ridiculous claims that are without basis. If it is littered with such symbols, you should be able to produce some convincing evidence, but you have done nothing but make statements that are not germane to the question of where the Bible is infested with astrology, never mind the original issue, its connection to Astrological Ages, which makes absolutely no sense and, apart from one guy that I found who dates the Age of Pisces beginning in 1AD, seems to have no connection whatsoever to anything.

reply to post by adjensen


He is providing convincing evidence, you just choose to ignore it.

It's equivalent to a child sticking his fingers in his ear and screaming 'LA LA LA LA LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU', your fear of the made up hell blocks it all out. Take your fingers out of your ears and LISTEN.

Open your mind to the possibility, you may be surprised at what you learn.

You keep closing it off without ever even considering it, you write it off before ever giving it a chance and that's not fair to him.

There's no need to fear going to hell, and once you realize that it is an imaginary place made up by those who are in power in order to keep you conformed, you will be set free.

I suppose that finding astrological references in the Bible may be interesting.* By analogy, many scholars search Shakespeare’s plays for historical or scientific errors and that is perfectly fine. However, I am more interested in the profound message of Shakespeare’s plays and not if he had a en.wikipedia.org... wearing the correct shoes.
* I am inclined to believe that there are. People back then were scientifically illiterate. Of course if I was a fundamentalist (or one trying to disprove fundamentalism, the belief that everything in the Bible is literally true) then such petty details would be important. However, I am not a fundamentalist and I do not want to waste my time on such a silly subject. ( if fundamentalism, taking the Bible literally is accurate. Of course it is not)

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Sailor Sam

 

May I ask you question - when, why and where did mankind first feel the need for religion and an adoration of gods?

I'm not sure, I'm not sure it will ever be known because it is in the past and all we can go on is hearsay. I'm sure not too long after society became reliant on money.

Well somewhere along that line of thought money became GOD to many people....and still is!

reply to post by elrem48


That's actually what I was aiming for when I said that. The ones in power became obsessed with money and making more of it, and as a result they created religion in order for people to conform to the destruction of Earth by telling them there was something better after this life.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

He is providing convincing evidence, you just choose to ignore it.

What evidence? I have seen ZERO evidence, nothing but conjecture! If you would like to point it out, and explain how it is evidence, I am all ears. It is convincing, to you, because it just validates what you want to believe, but if you want to convince someone who thinks that you're full of it, as I do, you need to produce something other than fanciful musings.

I suspect that the reality is that neither of you understands the concept of "evidence".

reply to post by adjensen


A sun dial only works when the sun is out.

The "clock" is round because the sky is round, (circumference of the horizon). The clock is a dualistic symbol in nature. There are 2 sides to every day and 2 sides to god, light and dark, good and evil.

There are 2 sets of 12, because 1) 12 is a mystical number and 2) a day is divided into 2 parts, day and night.

The solar disk has been a GOD to many a society in our history.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

A sun dial only works when the sun is out.

The "clock" is round because the sky is round, (circumference of the horizon). The clock is a dualistic symbol in nature. There are 2 sides to every day and 2 sides to god, light and dark, good and evil.

That is fine in a dualistic religion, but neither Judaism nor Christianity is dualistic, from its core.

Why? Because, in those religions, there is no counterpart to God. God has no equal. As a result, evil is not the opposite of good, it is the absence of good. Dark is not the opposite of light, it is the absence of it.