have you ever known a psychopath?

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you for sharing that.

I hope that some who work in the field still, take on board what we experienced and maybe decide to be the "leaders" and not "sheep" as such in how they react to clients.

Also that hopefully those who have been diagnosed, or their family and friends always explore the possibilities and inherent abilities of their loved ones to make massive improvements in behavior.

Not to loose faith or hope as such.

Consistency, love, respect and treating & seeing the "person" not the diagnosis is all it takes in most cases, especially young adults and early adulthood.

Though of course there are some clients who no matter what is done, if it is very organic or not learnt where this could be an danger, so as an warning note to for workers in the field to carefully be aware when this sort of "non modus operandi" is relevant, as an worker you do open yourself up to danger by doing the right thing as such.

Thank you soo much for your reply, and also for ensuring that your contribution, and the self reflection it caused in me has maybe balanced this thread for the OP & readers, from my initial stance, which if I am honest is a tad hypocritical on my part originally.

Berating the profession for what I see as accepting labels, is as bad as me labeling all the profession as such.... so thank you again.

Love

Elf

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Thank you, Elf.
I agree with you on all of your points...fortunately there are MD Psychiatrists under whom I have studied that DID understand this, and were actively teaching it to resident doctors and interns in the teaching hospitals.

I also attended some extraordinarily good workshops that were cohosted by MDs and PhDs...who were on the same wave. The PAXIS Institute is run by a multi-discipline team who strives for just such a thing as well.
The PAXIS Institute
You are so exquisitely correct about youth, in particular.

All it takes sometimes is just the slightest nudge in their trajectory, by any caring adult (not just practitioners...but a mentor, family member, teacher, coach, whoever) and their lives can be headed a better direction -- (Of course this refers to behavioral stuff, not to organic brain disorders) -- that leads them AWAY from psychopathology.

I very much respect your input, and your feedback.
I also hope everyone else who participated in this thread found a sense of community, hope, and healing.

Best regards,

wt

It was interesting reading the posts from Wildtimes and MischievousElf. I want to read them and think about them in more detail, but I can't help observing that most damage is done in society by psychopaths who have never entered nor would ever consider entering a clinical setting of any sort.

These are the "free range" psychopaths, who have never done anything wrong, made a mistake or caused any problem in their lives and who would be aghast at the suggestion that somehow an imperfection might, erroneously, be thought to be associated with them.

It would be nice if professionals would write a self defence manual for those who have to deal with these free range psychopaths. Getting these people off the street into a healing environment, even if only for a few hours a month is a big achievement, but what about the legions of walking wounded who have to deal with these people in social trench warfare every day of their lives?

reply to post by ipsedixit


You are quite right, there, ipsedixit. Very VERY few of them willingly go for counseling or help...unless it is to manipulate the practitioner as well...
so they can "talk the talk" with their victims (sometimes the practitioners ARE the victims, other times the victims are family members, friends, or the intended prey).

There are websites that offer coping tips. Try doing a search for "dealing with a psychopath", I'd bet you get bejillions of links immediately. I've often pointed people to such sites. The info is out there, the skills are not that difficult.

Just educate yourself. I completely sympathize and empathize, as one of the "walking wounded" myself.
If you'd like more info, feel free to u2u me, and I'll point you to some helpy-links!

wild

reply to post by wildtimes

I have googled as you suggested and you are right. There is a lot on the subject, but what I have read so far is depressing. How to deal with a psychopath? One writer said that the only reason to deal with a sociopath/psychopath is either that you haven't found a new job yet or that you are under court order to do so.

I did find a link to an online free .pdf of a book called The Mask of Sanity, by Hervey Cleckley, M.D., which is supposed to be one of the seminal studies of this sort of person.

www.cassiopaea.org...

I am still evolving coping mechanisms to deal with the psychopath in my life. Recently, I hit on the notion of viewing this person as a cat.

I don't do this in the spirit of demeaning the person. I am way past demeaning this person or inveighing against this person or gossiping and commiserating with others about this person.

What I am attempting to do by thinking of this person as a cat is to cushion my mental equilibrium and peace of mind from the effects of this person's bizarre (for a person, but not for a cat) behavior.

I want to stress that this is not an offensive weapon. I'm not snickering at this person and putting out bowls of cream on the floor, intended for this person. The strategy helps me from taking anything done by that person, personally, as I would never take something done by a cat, personally.

This still doesn't address situations where one is forced to integrate and cooperate in tasks with the cat and where the successful outcome of events will depend to some extent on what the cat does. But obviously, in the case of dealing with a real cat, as opposed to an imaginary cat, one would keep a careful eye on the cat and try to make sure that it wasn't manning the plunger, for example, at an industrial explosion.

I think that psychopaths, like disease, will always be with us. We will never eradicate them, I don't believe, but we must defend ourselves and our own mental health from the effects of dealing with them.

reply to post by ipsedixit

I think that psychopaths, like disease, will always be with us. We will never eradicate them, I don't believe, but we must defend ourselves and our own mental health from the effects of dealing with them.

Your thinking, friend, is SPOT ON.
Cheers to you. I sent you a u2u re this thread.

Originally posted by MorpheusUSA
Yes, I work with one. Not the movie kind but the true definition kind.
The checklist on Wikipedia is how I found out why the person I work with is so different than everyone else in the office. Once I started seeing a pattern of these traits I could finally tell myself that they had a real personality disorder.

Traits
Hare Psychopathy Checklist
Factor 1
Aggressive narcissism

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2
Socially deviant lifestyle

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Lack of realistic, long-term goals
Impulsiveness
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavioral problems
Revocation of conditional release
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Reference

~Morpheus

OMG this sounds just like my 19 yr old grandson. His father shipped him to us from cross country under the pretense that it was just a visit. In addition to those characteristics he is on Meth. He blew up on us several times before he moved out and telling us we were "Inbred, Backwoods, Ignorant Red Neck M. F's. He also told his step mom that he should've burned our house down.....and nobody did anything to him. I hate it but we are elderly and we cannot take the stress so he is not welcome here anymore. It is bad when you are afraid of your own grandchild. Right now he is living with his mother a few towns away...Daddy refused to send him a plane ticket.

reply to post by pasiphae

The only psychopath I can think of is also narcissistic...and that is, Barry Hussein Harrison J. Bounel Barack Soetoro Obama..your foreign national, POUS!

Illustrated,documented and proven accurate!

Before including the link to The Mask of Sanity, above, I looked it up on Wikipedia to get an idea of the book's reputation and current relevance. Apparently it is a classic but still considered relevant because it was the first to disclose some of the key characteristics or markers of the psychopath which are still accepted today.

In the Wikipedia article, one point caught my attention, because it was a subtle aspect of my own dealings with the troublesome person in my life.

en.wikipedia.org...

Cleckley describes the psychopathic person as outwardly a perfect mimic of a normally functioning person, able to mask or disguise the fundamental lack of internal personality structure, an internal chaos that results in repeatedly purposeful destructive behavior, often more self-destructive than destructive to others.

Early in the relationship with this person, I often felt that the person was deliberately screwing up, hoping to get attention, in an emotionally needy way, even if that attention was a scolding.

I think there is a consciousness, in this person, of needing to fit in, but an inability to understand why others are not more accepting.

Imagine if a cat's mind were put into a human being. Cats are cuddly, primitive, relentless killers. They are promiscuous, amoral, selfish, sometimes, and sometimes affectionate to their owners and even generous. They will sometimes murder a mouse and bring it to their owner as an offering, to share. They include the owner in the feral group.

The owner chuckles and copes. The average housecat is not a serious threat and if it becomes a serious threat, it can be put down.

Psychopathic behaviour is like animal behaviour. But what if the psychopath only had slight tendancies that way? Enough to mark them out and to make others shy from them, but not enough to get them jailed or institutionalized? What if such a person knew something was wrong about them personally, but didn't realize or acknowledge or understand the seriousness of the flaws.

Does a cat understand the seriousness of its flaws vis a vis standard human behaviour?

My psychopath is like that.

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by Epirus

 

would that kid have been a former POSUS?

If we believe the psychiatrists, a sign of a future serial killer is a child who delights in torturing and killing animals. George W., as a child, did exactly that. In a May 21, 2000, New York Times' puff piece about the values Bush gained growing up in Midland, Texas, Nicholas D. Kristof quoted Bush's childhood friend Terry Throckmorton: "'We were terrible to animals,' recalled Mr. Throckmorton, laughing. A dip behind the Bush home turned into a small lake after a good rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. 'Everybody would get BB guns and shoot them,' Mr. Throckmorton said. 'Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw them and blow them up.'"

On Sept. 12, 2000, Baltimore Sun reporter Miriam Miedzian wrote, "So when he was a kid, George W. enjoyed putting firecrackers into frogs, throwing them in the air, and then watching them blow up. Should this be cause for alarm? How relevant is a man's childhood behavior to what he is like as an adult? And in this case, to what he would be like as president of the United States

I always wondered why it was so easy for him to send other people to their deaths. Like he never pardoned any condemned prisoner and he delighted in sending boys to the mid east. I get it now. He was not who he seemed.

Is there some level on which they're not sociopathic? Like unconsciously, deep down somewhere are they more normal? I always wonder because the one I know always wants to imbue me with his negative characteristics, the ones that he doesn't like about himself. And I wonder, if he has no conscience, why would it bother him enough to try to project it onto someone else?

Originally posted by ipsedixit
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I have googled as you suggested and you are right. There is a lot on the subject, but what I have read so far is depressing. How to deal with a psychopath? One writer said that the only reason to deal with a sociopath/psychopath is either that you haven't found a new job yet or that you are under court order to do so.

I did find a link to an online free .pdf of a book called The Mask of Sanity, by Hervey Cleckley, M.D., which is supposed to be one of the seminal studies of this sort of person.

www.cassiopaea.org...

I am still evolving coping mechanisms to deal with the psychopath in my life. Recently, I hit on the notion of viewing this person as a cat.

I don't do this in the spirit of demeaning the person. I am way past demeaning this person or inveighing against this person or gossiping and commiserating with others about this person.

What I am attempting to do by thinking of this person as a cat is to cushion my mental equilibrium and peace of mind from the effects of this person's bizarre (for a person, but not for a cat) behavior.

I want to stress that this is not an offensive weapon. I'm not snickering at this person and putting out bowls of cream on the floor, intended for this person. The strategy helps me from taking anything done by that person, personally, as I would never take something done by a cat, personally.

This still doesn't address situations where one is forced to integrate and cooperate in tasks with the cat and where the successful outcome of events will depend to some extent on what the cat does. But obviously, in the case of dealing with a real cat, as opposed to an imaginary cat, one would keep a careful eye on the cat and try to make sure that it wasn't manning the plunger, for example, at an industrial explosion.

I think that psychopaths, like disease, will always be with us. We will never eradicate them, I don't believe, but we must defend ourselves and our own mental health from the effects of dealing with them.


a CAT?!!! Some of the nices beings I know are cats. What's your problem with cats? Really. Get a grip.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

I think that psychopaths, like disease, will always be with us. We will never eradicate them, I don't believe, but we must defend ourselves and our own mental health from the effects of dealing with them.

Your thinking, friend, is SPOT ON.
Cheers to you. I sent you a u2u re this thread.

You are both missing the point. The one who needs our sympathy is the sociopath. Once you set it up so they can't hurt you as much, when you take a step back you realize who the unfortunate one really is.

reply to post by Hillarie

Is there some level on which they're not sociopathic? Like unconsciously, deep down somewhere are they more normal?

No, Hillarie, they are not 'normal'.
This kind of approach is understandable:

If I just love them enough, if I just hang in there long enough, they will be fixed by my acceptance and love.

Those are the people who are most taken advantage of. I totally understand your thinking, I have been there on more than one occasion. The problem is that you can't distance yourself enough and still engage to a point where they are 'fixed.' That's the hardest part of getting it.

If you read through the thread, you'll see several different experiences related....some individuals who have been labeled as such might be actually just reacting to some horrendous treatment (such as the 'patient' and the 'students' described), but it's critical to be able to differentiate.

A wounded individual may behave like a sociopath, and be reachable through understanding and the extension of dignity and respect. But a true 'sociopath' does not respond to that approach. It is difficult to differentiate the two. But it must be done. One can only get so many chances, be believed in so many times, and given the benefit of the doubt for so long......at that point it's time to say, "I can't fix you," and cut your losses.

Unfortunately it sometimes takes years of sacrifice, tolerance, abuse, and being lied to and cheated before a person -- no matter how smart, well-intentioned, or devoted -- finally realizes that there s nothing they can do that will please or change or save the true Sociopath.

Their lack of empathy and remorse will win. Every time.
Thanks for chiming in, though (as if it's my thread....sorry....)

One thing that resounds as I read every [post, (and I've read other threads entirely), is that there is no such thing as a psychopath at all. There just is no such thing.

For those of you recounting real life situations (with all the psychological empirical / anecdotal evidence attached), you are talking about real people with real lives. Not everyone has the ability to express themselves.

The list of things that deem you a psychopathic are relevant but not in the way described.

I say this with a different outlook, having been afraid to express myself and at the wrong end of trauma.

Psychopaths are just ego-eccentrically obsessed beings. They express what they know. We are all like that sometimes.

The argument that someone is "always" 'some way' is null and void.

reply to post by squandered

Not everyone has the ability to express themselves.

The list of things that deem you a psychopathic are relevant but not in the way described.

I say this with a different outlook, having been afraid to express myself and at the wrong end of trauma.

Psychopaths are just ego-eccentrically obsessed beings. They express what they know. We are all like that sometimes.

The argument that someone is "always" 'some way' is null and void.

I agree with you, 'always' and 'never' are inappropriate in many ways.
So, I would ask that you take some time to express yourself a little better....
what is your different outlook? When were you afraid to express yourself, what was the wrong end of trauma for you?
Yes, they are ego-eccentrically obsessed beings.
Your post here makes me very curious....and I'd be interested in hearing your story, or your reasons for having arrived at this appraisal.

reply to post by pasiphae


Yes, and if you can believe me. I do it in a.. try to in a positive matter, for a more positive outcome.

Really if you think about it, the proper way to title your thread is to state, who isn't?

Narrows it down for a faster and more efficient answer. IMO

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by squandered

 

Not everyone has the ability to express themselves.

The list of things that deem you a psychopathic are relevant but not in the way described.

I say this with a different outlook, having been afraid to express myself and at the wrong end of trauma.

Psychopaths are just ego-eccentrically obsessed beings. They express what they know. We are all like that sometimes.

The argument that someone is "always" 'some way' is null and void.

I agree with you, 'always' and 'never' are inappropriate in many ways.
So, I would ask that you take some time to express yourself a little better....
what is your different outlook? When were you afraid to express yourself, what was the wrong end of trauma for you?
Yes, they are ego-eccentrically obsessed beings.
Your post here makes me very curious....and I'd be interested in hearing your story, or your reasons for having arrived at this appraisal.

Unfortunately my trust issues are as front focused as ever. The issues of trauma are managed only in as much I feel present. As time passes you move on, so there is no reason to recount the past like you ask.

What I will talk about is an inability to defend my 'self'. People telling me I should 'play the game' and very hard felt lessons about life when you must stand aside and watch.

Hope for a better world, but take what you get.

Yes, several...any unanswered questions? (sorry, didn't read through the whole thread (yet))

reply to post by squandered

What I will talk about is an inability to defend my 'self'. People telling me I should 'play the game' and very hard felt lessons about life when you must stand aside and watch.

Hope for a better world, but take what you get.

Okay....so, talk about your inability to defend your 'self'. Who is telling you to 'play the game'? Aside from where are you standing?

Not trying to argue or refute you, squandered. Not at all.